WTC Steel Analysis Reveals Thermite and Thermate By-Products

Originally posted by Harte
The idea that the vast majority of the steel from the site was carted off "under armed guard" is absurd. Entire sections of several naval ships are made from some of this steel. Even the "American Chopper" series on the Discovery channel got some to incorporate into their FDNY motorcycle.

This steel, minus a quantity reserved for testing, exactly as you claim has not been done by the government, followed the exact same pathway that practically every single piece of scrap steel follows in our country.

This is categorically false. A minimum of 50,000 TONS was shipped to China immediately. One would think that NONE would be shipped away as the site was a CRIME SCENE. There is NO excuse for this and to use it to "debunk" Jones is a joke.

The steel sent for the ship, coins, motorcycle, etc. was already melted back doen and delivered as "new" steel, NOT SCRAP.

Originally posted by Harte
I'd go with "Jones does not know what he's talking about," except I don't believe that either. But I will say that Jones is a fairly fringey individual. As a physicist, he's published work that attempts to connect some Native American artwork to the New World coming of Jesus Christ (Jones is a Mormon.) Seems to be not only complete nonsense, but also pretty darn far afield considering his Doctorate.

He did not publish that "as a physicist" he published it as a MORMON. Just because you do not agree with his RELIGIOUS point of view does NOTHING to discredit his work on this project or in other fields.

Originally posted by Harte
But Jones was working with Fleischmann and Pons.

While it's true that Jones' method differs from the debunked method, and that Jones recognized early on that his device had no commercial value, it still says a lot about Jones that he would trumpet his technique as cold fusion when what he actually has could just as easily be merely called a neutron source. Jones' method holds out exactly no hope for energy generation.

So you conceede that his cold fusion work WAS SUCCESSFUL just like the rest of the scientific community, but since it did not generate commercial value he is somehow "impeached" and his methodical work worthless?

Why do you think he kept his work SEPERATE from F&P? Probably because he knew they were sloppy frauds. That is why he did his OWN work and published seperately.

The arguments just get weaker and weaker as time goes on.

Originally posted by Slap Nuts
How come you NEVER respond to the science and just keep throwing "could be" and "what if's"?

I take time to respond to your posts logically and you never conceede or even rebut all you do is post more "stuff" to dilute the issue. Roark is good at this too.

[edit on 8-6-2006 by Slap Nuts]

When I see some real science I'll respond to it in kind. All I have seen so far is pure speculation.

Originally posted by Clark_Kent
I guess I was wondering if you had anymore info on the samples other than what was mentioned on the show. It just sounded like it from your posts.

The information is forth coming and is only temporarily being witheld. Jones is not an idiot and is not going to tip his hand until quntitative results are complete. He is 100% aware that the question of how and where the sample was obtained is of grave importance to his argument. He is not stupid nor is he sloppy. The paper should be available next week.

It is unfortunate though that unless he can produce steel that was on camera from the moment the towers fell certain people will always claim it is a hoax. These are the SAME PEOPLE that quote eye witenesses re: the Pentagon then DEMAND a criminal chain of custody for the steel, which they know is impossible thanks to the government.

Originally posted by JIMC5499
All I have seen so far is pure speculation.

Me too! I have read the NIST, FEMA and 9/11 Comission reports... ALL pure speculation.

I have also watched the PBS/NOVA special... Pure speculation.

You defend those as if they are FACT... Interesting indeed.

Why is it that one man con convince so many when there was a multitude of PHd's and engineers who have ALREADY done contracted and independant studies on the 9/11 remains.

He states that he used samples from WTC to test.

also,

According to FEMA, more than 350,000 tons of steel were extracted from Ground Zero Four salvage yards were contracted to process the steel.

Hugo Nue Schnitzer at Fresh Kills (FK) Landfill, Staten Island, NJ
Hugo Nue Schnitzer's Claremont (CM) Terminal in Jersey City, NJ
Metal Management in Newark (NW), NJ
Blanford and Co. in Keasbey (KB), NJ

There were approximately 150 sections saved for further research. There is no secret as to where it went, and if you dig a little deeper the Chinese have been purchasing TONS of steel prior to 9/11 so where is the conspiracy.

It makes me feel good that people trust prisonplanet more than it's own government.

Originally posted by esdad71
Why is it that one man con convince so many when there was a multitude of PHd's and engineers who have ALREADY done contracted and independant studies on the 9/11 remains.

I guess your definition of independant is VERY different than mine. Government contractors ARE not impartial nor are they independant.

Originally posted by esdad71
Four salvage yards were contracted to process the steel.

All the yards were is a temporary holding grounds. The scrap was immediately sent out and smelted.

Originally posted by esdad71
There were approximately 150 sections saved for further research. There is no secret as to where it went, and if you dig a little deeper the Chinese have been purchasing TONS of steel prior to 9/11 so where is the conspiracy.

150 sections SELECTED by GOVERNMENT workers is not sufficient for the largest CRIME of our time. What is that .0001%?

Why will they not release them for study by Jones or NON-GOVERNMENT contracted scientists?

The fact that the steel went to China is not really my issue, it is the SPEED at which the decision to sell and smelt was made.

I do not trust Prison PLanet and if you HAD READ the first post you would have known that. I do trust the WORDS IN DR. JONES' paper on 9/11 because I have a degree from The University of Michigan in Physics with a minor in Applied Mathematics that allows me to view it from an academic POV. His scientific approach and methods are sound wether you want to admit it or not.

I think you know that though. Next.

[edit on 8-6-2006 by Slap Nuts]

Always such great debates here at ATS.Have a look at various government officials coming out with info, stateing that 9-11, was infact known and orchestrated by the bush administration and was titled OPERATION NORTHWOODS.Some members of government now coming forward.

Originally posted by questions2u
Always such great debates here at ATS.Have a look at various government officials coming out with info, stateing that 9-11, was infact known and orchestrated by the bush administration and was titled OPERATION NORTHWOODS.Some members of government now coming forward.

Wrong thread... Also, Operation Northwoods is old.

Next huh?

He got the steel from the WTC for testing. Did YOU listen to the audio or just run with it? I bet you just ran with it.

FEMA (gov't), NIST (gov't) and Silverstiens (independant) own investigation were performed and completed with 100's of respected researchers, yet this is not good enough. If there was one report, I could see indecision on the outcome, but 3?

When using DNA testing, you use .0001% of a persons blood, right? Are you trying to state that 350 tons of material should have been reviewed to come to a conclusion that no 'thermite' was used?

Steel was and is a very hot commodity in the world market, and tragedy let itself fill a margin for that market. The last standing piece was bought down in mid december, 2001, and the last girder was removed on may 28, 2002. Doesn't sound to fast to me.

Also, there are a multitude of other places the 'sulphur' could have arisen from as has already been touched upon.

Originally posted by esdad71
He got the steel from the WTC for testing.

No. He took it from some other disaster...

Originally posted by esdad71
FEMA (gov't), NIST (gov't) and Silverstiens (independant) own investigation were performed and completed with 100's of respected researchers, yet this is not good enough. If there was one report, I could see indecision on the outcome, but 3?

The assertions in these reports have been debunked time and time again yet you still act as if they have a factual basis. They are all backwards science. Make the evidence fit the pre-drawn conclusion. All junk.

Originally posted by esdad71

When using DNA testing, you use .0001% of a persons blood, right?

The DNA of a human is THE SAME in all cells. This cannot be asserted regarding the UNIQUE pieces of the WTC.

Originally posted by esdad71
Are you trying to state that 350 tons of material should have been reviewed to come to a conclusion that no 'thermite' was used?

It should have been held for a lot longer then a few months. Especially considering that all 3 reports that you cling to admit that they do NOT have all of the answers.

Originally posted by esdad71
Steel was and is a very hot commodity in the world market, and tragedy let itself fill a margin for that market. The last standing piece was bought down in mid december, 2001, and the last girder was removed on may 28, 2002. Doesn't sound to fast to me.

When dealing with a CRIME SCENE evidence is PRESERVED. Why not in this case? The "pentagon tapes" could not be released until Mousaoui was convicted BUT this evidence gets scrapped in a matter of months? Why the double standard when convenient?

Originally posted by esdad71
Also, there are a multitude of other places the 'sulphur' could have arisen from as has already been touched upon.

Sufficient quantities of elemental sulphur were just in the right place at the right time?

[edit on 8-6-2006 by Slap Nuts]

When Dr. Jones comes out with his findings, including the origin of the samples, the tests he ran and the results he obtained, let me know.

I find it funny that the official report has been criticized because it isn't detailed enough because not enough material was kept for testing, but Dr. Jones is to be believed on the basis of a couple of samples that may or may not have come from the WTC. I really want to see the assay report on the composition of the steel alloy of his samples. I have had a long belief that the steel used in the construction of the WTC was not what was specified in the design. No I don't buy into the Government reports 100%, but they are more plausible than a controlled implosion or thermite being used to collapse the towers.

Originally posted by JIMC5499
When Dr. Jones comes out with his findings, including the origin of the samples, the tests he ran and the results he obtained, let me know.

Fair enough and I will.

Originally posted by JIMC5499
I find it funny that the official report has been criticized because it isn't detailed enough because not enough material was kept for testing, but Dr. Jones is to be believed on the basis of a couple of samples that may or may not have come from the WTC.

He would test more samples if the government would allow him access.

Originally posted by JIMC5499
No I don't buy into the Government reports 100%, but they are more plausible than a controlled implosion or thermite being used to collapse the towers.

More plausible DOES NOT make them factual. They have been given exponentially more access and resources than this SINGLE MAN.

Hey guys, Jet Fuel has sulphur. Just like Diesel Fuel does. I know, I have a 3 diesel engines and use the fuel. Look it up.

Not hard to believe that residue from that burn would show sulphur.

Originally posted by Slap Nuts

Originally posted by Harte
The idea that the vast majority of the steel from the site was carted off "under armed guard" is absurd. Entire sections of several naval ships are made from some of this steel. Even the "American Chopper" series on the Discovery channel got some to incorporate into their FDNY motorcycle.

This steel, minus a quantity reserved for testing, exactly as you claim has not been done by the government, followed the exact same pathway that practically every single piece of scrap steel follows in our country.

This is categorically false. A minimum of 50,000 TONS was shipped to China immediately.

Mmmmm. That IS odd, considering that it was a couple of months before they could even bring in trucks to haul it away, due to instability in the underground structure. No trucks, no cranes, no nothing. They even had to get special dredges to clean out debris from the river (the debris was much to large, heavy and bulky for NYC's usual dredge contractor to even consider removing it) before they could get a barge in, which is how most of the debris was removed. But to you, I suppose, this is immediately

BTW, have you any idea how much scrap steel is shipped from this country to foreign steelworks? Check around Pittsburg to see if there's a whole lot of scrap metal recycling going on in the shut-down steelmills there.

Originally posted by Slap NutsOne would think that NONE would be shipped away as the site was a CRIME SCENE. There is NO excuse for this and to use it to "debunk" Jones is a joke.

As stated, the scene was investigated for a couple of months, with samples being taken from the site for testing on a daily basis. You'd know this already if you didn't get all your info spoon-fed to you from conspiracy websites.

Originally posted by Slap NutsThe steel sent for the ship, coins, motorcycle, etc. was already melted back doen and delivered as "new" steel, NOT SCRAP.

Nope, the parts used on the motorcycle were scrap metal, I saw this with my own eyes BTW, as were the pieces mounted in virtually every single memorial. In fact, there is still some scrap steel at ground zero - the remains of a staircase that there is (or was last month) a debate going on about whether or not to remove it at all, or perhaps leave it as part of a memorial.

Originally posted by Slap Nuts

Originally posted by Harte
I'd go with "Jones does not know what he's talking about," except I don't believe that either. But I will say that Jones is a fairly fringey individual. As a physicist, he's published work that attempts to connect some Native American artwork to the New World coming of Jesus Christ (Jones is a Mormon.) Seems to be not only complete nonsense, but also pretty darn far afield considering his Doctorate.

He did not publish that "as a physicist" he published it as a MORMON. Just because you do not agree with his RELIGIOUS point of view does NOTHING to discredit his work on this project or in other fields.

If you'll take a second and look at the web address I gave you, you'll see that it's posted at the BYU Physics department's website. Why isn't it posted on, say, the website of his Temple, or the LDS' main webpage?
I just said he was "fringey," I didn't say that it discredits him. His webpage, on the other hand, now that certainly discredits him.

Originally posted by Slap Nuts

Originally posted by Harte
But Jones was working with Fleischmann and Pons.

So you conceede that his cold fusion work WAS SUCCESSFUL just like the rest of the scientific community, but since it did not generate commercial value he is somehow "impeached" and his methodical work worthless?

I didn't say it "impeached" anything. I merely pointed out that he was working (and somewhat closely) with two other scientists that you have characterized as "frauds." A somewhat loose usage of the term. These two weren't "frauds" in the strictest sense of the term. They were just wrong - as is Jones, concerning 9/11.

Originally posted by Slap NutsWhy do you think he kept his work SEPERATE from F&P? Probably because he knew they were sloppy frauds. That is why he did his OWN work and published seperately.

Actually, no. The real difference between the two research efforts lay in the method used to measure the results. Jones was measuring neutron emission. The other two were looking for increases in heat energy. Perhaps you could actually go to the sites I linked you to, or at the very least read the part I included as an "external source" in my previous post. If you do, you'll see that it states right there in plain English that the two sets of researchers had initially agreed to publish their findings together, but Fleischmann and Pons reneged.

Jone's method uses the quantum effect called "tunneling." This is a natural effect that happens all the time. So his "fusion" might well be happening right now in my little toe. Jone's contribution was to use muons which makes the tunneling much more likely. IOW, all he did was increase the likelihood of the "tunneling" effect which resulted in more easily measurable results. Without the muons, the same reaction does occur, and all the time. It's just not so easily measurable because it's not happening as often as it will with muons. Fact is, his achievement in that experiment had more to do with devising a more sensitive neutron detection method than it had to do with any fusion breakthrough.

Harte

including the latest analysis of steel from the World Trade Center for testing of evidence of explosives.

You don't know what you are talking about. He sequestered samples from the WTC. He states in 35 seconds into the mp3?

NIST, FEMA and Silverstien were very large reports and if you can't listen to an mp3 and get the correct info, I doubt you have read all these reports.

Remember, there is also the 9/11 commission report.

I will not discount this guy, he is no doubt intelligent, but funny how he seems to have a book coming out later this year. Sounds more like a PR tour of the nation.

Originally posted by Slap Nuts
More plausible DOES NOT make them factual. They have been given exponentially more access and resources than this SINGLE MAN.

Looks like we might be on the same page, but for different reasons. I still feel that the planes are what brought down the towers. I think substandard materials used in the construction are the reason that the towers collapsed. The removal of the debris was rushed to prevent the discovery of the faulty materials. If the use of faulty materials was proven the lawsuits would bankrupt the States of New York and New Jersey. The cash settlements offered the families in exchange for their giving up their right to sue is the real conspiracy here. Every section of both towers was numbered and it would have been pretty easy to have kept track which pieces were faulty and which were not. The samples that NIST took were probably from the "good" pile. This is why I want to see Dr. Jones' assay reports. The type of steel that was supposed to have been used is pretty well documented. I want to see if his samples match the specifications.

Originally posted by esdad71
Next huh?

FEMA (gov't), NIST (gov't) and Silverstiens (independant) own investigation were performed and completed with 100's of respected researchers, yet this is not good enough. If there was one report, I could see indecision on the outcome, but 3?


Steel was and is a very hot commodity in the world market, and tragedy let itself fill a margin for that market. The last standing piece was bought down in mid december, 2001, and the last girder was removed on may 28, 2002. Doesn't sound to fast to me.

actually thats probably as fast as it gets, we are talking about city workers, have you ever watched a group of municiple workers to see how much they can accomplish in a day. NOT A LOT.

I dont see how Silverstien could be considered independent, if there turned out to be any suspisions of any outcome other than terrorists, the insurance company may not honor his claim especially if it were found out that he might have something to do with it.

It is independant because it has nothing to do with the gov't. That is the only point i was trying to make.

The WTC site was not cleaned up in days, it was months. It burned for weeks, or have you forgotten this?

Originally posted by Formula1
Hey guys, Jet Fuel has sulphur. Just like Diesel Fuel does. I know, I have a 3 diesel engines and use the fuel. Look it up.

Not hard to believe that residue from that burn would show sulphur.

Jet fuel touched a small percentage of the steel in the towers and burned. Your assertion while remotely possible has little chance of being the source of the sulphur observed in the compounds removed from the steel. It certainly could not have been in conecentrations high enough to be confused with the chemical by-products of thermate.

Listen to you (Slap Nuts) ... he hasn't even published anything (my bet is he won't anyway), he won't go into any details ... yet you take it as gospel?

Originally posted by Slap NutsYou are confusing Jones with Fleischmann and Pons, do some research. Fleischmann and Pons were proven to be frauds. Jones was measuring neutron flux, his expiriments WERE successful and accepted though the had little commercial value.

You're the one who said he "proved cold fusion" - so you do some research ... His work was NOT successful becasue no one was able to reproduce it.

How deos that invalidate anything he has to say?

Because his work does not follow the scientific method, and does not stand up to peer review.

Because the government conducted a MASSIVE evidence destruction operation under armed guard. Your logic is circular.

My logic is circular? Do you even know what logic is?

Back to the issue ... in the WTC there were many sources of Fe-slag, and there were many sources for S. S bonded to Fe is not the key ... because there's no way to analyze for S bonded to Fe.

You can only get separate wt% results for each... and if you're a sh*tty scientist with no idea where your sample has come from in the first place ... well, it presents a hurdle in the peer-review process.

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[edit on 8-6-2006 by vor75]