Religion...Scaring us to be good.

limited free will is still free will. We have 2 destiny's to choose from . This is something I could never answer. Im not going to lie, there are some days where I completly believe im totally in gods hands.

then there are days where I believe I made wrong decisions. But those wrong decisions might be part of gods will. The bad decisions will allow me to either make right ones next time, or perhaps im better off making the mistake so I can learn a lesson.

The thing is...people might not want to believe that we are automated beings. Addiction to individualism..and our sense of self allows us to believe in free will instead. But you sure do have a point.. It's hard to believe in God and free will at the same time. ..But if God is 2 sides....then our decisions are always filtered down and broken down into 2 main outcomes. The percentages of your decisions based on influence lead to heaven or hell. Either you are influenced by the lord or by satan. Either you affect the quantum field as the lord intended for you....or you fail in life. So far...thats where I stand. But if you think limited free will is not free will, I still cannot disagree with you.

[edit on 7/13/2006 by StreetCorner Philosopher]

I appreciate your thoughtful reply. I'm just interested in what people think, and why. And I certainly can't say you're wrong. Key statement you made is "...people might not want to believe...". I think anyone would agree if you jump off a cliff unaided, you're going to fall regardless of what you believe will happen. And I believe that's the point, at least when it comes to what happens after this life. What ultimately happens is what's going to happen regardless of what we believe. I believe in God's will and that everyone will ultimately end up in the same place. And it will be good. For everyone. Eventually. Regardless of what we want to believe.

This is a concept I struggle with myself, but I think there's a difference between "choice" and "free will".

Maybe.

To be or not to be -- that is the question:

As in, despearation knows no limits and perhaps with relgion we can force some.

[edit on 13-7-2006 by risitar]

Originally posted by StreetCorner Philosopher
then there are days where I believe I made wrong decisions. But those wrong decisions might be part of gods will. The bad decisions will allow me to either make right ones next time, or perhaps im better off making the mistake so I can learn a lesson.

I think men see mistakes, God sees learning opportunities.

..But if God is 2 sides....then our decisions are always filtered down and broken down into 2 main outcomes. The percentages of your decisions based on influence lead to heaven or hell. Either you are influenced by the lord or by satan. Either you affect the quantum field as the lord intended for you....or you fail in life.

Personally, (and this is just me) I don't see 'failure' as being something in God's sight, either. There is only success and progress toward same. Each 'failure' is just further refinement toward ultimate 'success.'

If God has 2 sides (and I do agree with this) then even those two main outcomes are funneled down to 1 ultimate end for all souls-----God.

So far...thats where I stand. But if you think limited free will is not free will, I still cannot disagree with you.

I think that within the grand design, there is a huge lateral area of 'opportunity to choose.' We call that free will because within our scope, it is. But death leads to life, and so even hell leads to heaven, so to speak. Our opportunity to choose develops our unique potential on an individual basis! That's what God desires--godly individual beings, not automatons.

IMHO, that is.

Originally posted by The Parasite
I dont like the fact that GOD creats us then kills us and its all a test.

First of all, if you are not religious, then why would you state this as fact? Now, depending on one’s religion and point of view, one may very well accept this as fact indeed. However, not all religions embrace this as fact, and if one lacks religion completely, then why would one believe this? I don’t understand your point of view.

Originally posted by The Parasite
Snip…they added hell in the mix to scare us to be good or we get burned for all interinty…snip

I am a very spiritual person, religious even, and yet I do not believe in hell. I am not saying that others shouldn’t believe in it. Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs. I am simply saying that a belief in hell is not required in order for one to be spiritual or religious, and I am using myself as an example.

Originally posted by WeBDeviL
Many religious and spiritual philosophies, such as Buddhism or Taoism, are not arranged like this.

I am with WeBDeviL on this one. Many religions do not require such beliefs.

From the sound of your post, I wonder if perhaps you have had some horrible experience with mainstream religion that has left you with negative feelings. If that is the case, I hope that you are able to make peace with it, for your own sake (not for religious reasons). I had a horrible experience myself and I can’t begin to explain the betrayal I felt. It very nearly destroyed me. I swore I’d never embrace religion again, and yet here I am studying for the ministry. If you did have a bad experience and felt like sharing it, you could consider U2Uing me, if you want.

People who sway away from mainstream religion are making a bad choice because if they understand what religious text implies, then they would never neglect it. Most people who give up or lose their religion act out of personal anger and probably never trusted the scripture in the first place. If you embrace the religion all over again, then you should know it will only bring benefits to your life. Besides my belief in hell being a state of mind, I dont believe in the "afterlife hell".

In response to Faith vs Free will. I guess our freedom to choose from two ultimate roads in life will eventually always merge in the end. This thread has made this a little more clear for me. It's a tough topic . I actually would love to admit that I am automated for the good of god !. The good half of course. But what about people who die horrible deaths, or for example the innocent victims of a plane crash? Some people might say..."why does god allow such horrors" . I say the consciousness we share learns collectively. If the Columbia spacecraft did not blow up after descending into our atmosphere in 2002, then NASA would of never permitted the astronauts to perform heat tile inspections and modify the external fuel tank. Sometimes we need to wake up and smell progress through tragic events..cosmos from chaos.

Death to me is a release from a spell. A waking from a dream. In this alternative paradigm consciousness is there all the time...in the air, the trees, the emptiness in space. It is there waiting for us to rejoin it. Consciousness is like the world inside of a bubble. When the bubble is intact, images are distorted..when the bubble pops the true appearence of things are revealed. At death we move from one side of our senses to the other. We break free from our internal world in our mind and join the intelligent universe. Atoms are recycled. All things that are subjective and objective will fuse .

So do not fear burning in flames if you do not help the old lady cross the street. At the end it's all peace. What happens in this world , stays in this world. The impact of your life will only be felt by the inhabitants of this world. To add some new thoughts to the topic, what if there is a decision at the end of time. A verdict of some sort. A fool who suffers his whole life, and ultimatly raises bad kids, or winds up hurting others etc... are his atoms recycled into a lower form of intelligence ? I only think about these things. For the noble man who attributes to mankind in great ways...where do his atoms go, and what do they become ? these are the ultimate questions that cannot be answered. Not even by intuition.

[edit on 7/14/2006 by StreetCorner Philosopher]

Originally posted by StreetCorner Philosopher
I only think about these things. For the noble man who attributes to mankind in great ways...where do his atoms go, and what do they become ? these are the ultimate questions that cannot be answered. Not even by intuition.

Well said, these are indeed very difficult questions; which raises the other one: do you believe in "afterlife".
When I was a kid I used to think that when you died you returned to the place you were before you were born. Growing up brought me the notion that our dust to dust would end up in the Great Cauldron of the Universe and Eternity and get mixed for the new soup of the next generation.
I now would be very satisfied if at the moment on death I could say that I was wise enough or good enough not to feel any shame for my past.
I am convinced that that would open a "Better Door"
Osbert+

Originally posted by yeahright

Originally posted by BaastetNoir
No i simply was saying, that despite whatever God's will could be or not, you choose to get up in the morning, turn on the computer and ome to ATS...God didn't make you do it.

Allow me to modify my original hastily worded question (and if I've made this all too confusing, feel free to ignore me). Is 'free will' the same as 'choice'? (Notice I've removed the 'free' descriptor before 'choice', hence the potential confusion. I shouldn't have phrased the question the way I did originally).

I'm particularly interested in knowing how a believer in God and God's will can simultaneously believe in free will for people. If there is a God and he has a will, then 'free will' for people would seem contradictory. Wouldn't it?

When you are faced with something to choose from, you have the free will to choose whichever you want, and with that choice comes the resposibility and its consequences.

Qhen ppl choose to get drunk and drive, God di not make them do it ? they choose it.

When ppl win loteries and choose to share with charities, God didn't make them do it, they chose it. Whether you choose wiselly or not...it IS YOUR choice.

God's will (wish) that you would Follow him and earn the reward of Heaven, but he won't make you do it., because if He did, than that would not be a pure love, it would be something forced upon you.

Yes it's the body that makes the decision of course. But the algorithms of the brain are a different story.

Connected people to the spirit are entirely in god's hands. They make the decisions god would want them to make. The body does the physical work, and motivation comes from within a well tuned brain connected to the soul.

People who are cut off from god, are entirely alone, completly free to make their foolish errors and bad decisions.

I certainly can agree with you in the fire and brimstone aspect of some religions, as far as scare tactics. But I believe us to be spirits of progress. Not souls to be tossed away based on morals and deeds of this earth. Although I do believe that is how we progress. Thats what I'm thinking anyway.

Yes, but some souls do not progress. Some decline at early ages, some decline at a later age. The body who is not one with spirit will eventually never fullfill it's destiny. God relies on percentages. If brain surgeons make the most money, then why doesn't everyone become one? We are balanced out. Some people are born with qualities to fit a specific task in life. Some fail to fullfill their natural duty. Distractions cause this, fear and financial problems early out in life while attending college. Natural duty is living out destiny.

Trial and error. Errors allow us to progress...but some people never learn.

How are You guys doing
this is my first post so bare with me

I Have believed inhristianity my whole life, (18yrs) and I have just recently stoped believing. I found it was very hard for me to let go of what i have been raised to believe my whole life. Actually I was a little scared because if christianity was found to be true then im pretty much screwed( you know the whole hell thing).

There are many reasons why i have chosen to abandon my faith. For one, I had noticed that I believed in Christianity for all the wrong reasons. I believed in it because i thought I was supposed to believe in it. I thought since the rest of my family believed in it, then I should to. Also I always loved to believe that when you die you accend to heaven and live in eternal peace. I Just always loved that concept and i still do. It is very comforting to believe in.Although its a comforting concept I had always wondered if this was really true. When I got in high school thats when I finally started to expand my thinking and started looking up evoloution. The more i read up on it, the less faith I started to have in my religion. Even though I found out the theory had a few holes in it, there was no denying the already existing facts. It Just seemed to make so much more sense than christianity. The mere concept of a "god" was made up to explain natural phenomenon such as earthquakes, thunder, lighting, rain, volcanic erruptions, tsunamis(i know its spelled wrong) and many other earthly occurences. They didn't have science thousands of years ago to help them explain why these things happen so they used the term god to explain it. They created a whole universe around this god(angels, demons,etc).

We simply didn't have the " know how" to go out and explore the world and come to our own truths. Everybody was happy with thinking "its all from god". Every race and culture believed in some form of god or gods. Some tried to force there beliefs on other races and cultures.

I dont want to get to much deeper into this so I'll just state my conclusion.
I dont believe that religions and gods where made to scare people, but to help people explain the world around them without actually going out into the world and finding the REAL truth. There are many reasons why people believe what the believe:

-they were raised to believe it so they find it hard letting go(im an example of that)
-they have a strong desire to belong to somthing
-they find comfort and peace of mind believing they know what happens when you die.

Just to let people know,i still believe somthing happens when you die even though there is no evidence to support this.Lol I guess this is just me trying to get a peace of mind too.
-

Listen up my friend...I felt exactly what you felt. I grew up catholic, and was basically sucked into all those rituals and ceremonies as a child. Marriage, communion, confirmation...whatever the sacrament may be, I actually thought they were important. As I grew into my twenties I began reading the bible alot. I realized what the stories meant and began to expand my mind a little bit. I began to read it all, from philosophy, to the koran, teachings of buddha, and the torah. I became obsessed with seeking truth once I hit the age of twenty five. Now four years later, I can no longer consider myself a Christian because It's like having a person with a hobby who only reads one magazine on his passion instead of reading the dozens of other sources. Why limit truth seeking to one source? Why label myself? because I recieved sacraments?? NO, no , no. I believe science is the only religion, and many disagree with me and always separate it. Absurd !

I still want you to know that only fools abandon the bible. You should not neglect everthing because you realized the stories were myths and not fact. I agree...the people think they have to believe in christianity. They misinterpret it though...and I disect the bible up to this very day, because I enjoy comparing it all to science and physics and even the mythology in my huge collection of comic books. my internal image of God and the spirit within man is all in the bible...just different interpretations. Picture is as a universal set of stories that correlate to facts and theories about truth and nature of god. Jesus was the preatest philosopher of all time because his teachings are immortal. They made more sense back then, than they do now to scientists, but they still make sense. ...and also entertain us with drama and emotion.

[edit on 7/21/2006 by StreetCorner Philosopher]

Im a religious person, but i believe in things a little differently then what people normally think.

I believe science is the path to understanding God, not disproving His existence.

Science has taught us that Something cannot be created from nothing. "Energy is neither created nor destroyed, it changes its form"
Therefore any theory involving the creation of the Universe without God's help is obviously impossible. How God was created or born, is not for us to understand.

I believe that Evolution is correct as well, but think of it this way, there are 100 trillion trillion billion (many more then this just too long to type) different combinations a single celled organism can evolve into something. Humans being just one of them. It seems almost impossible that it could have happend without divine assistance.

Think of it this way. Why couldnt the "Taking of a rib from Adam to create Eve" Been a "Cell reproducing by splitting at its 'side' "

Skipping ahead to Jesus. I believe Jesus was in essence God. I also believe Jesus Was married (probably to Mary Magdalin(sp?)) And probably had a child. He was much more human then the bible wants us to believe. Which was partially the point.


basically, what im saying is. Science is Right, but it cant be without God. Science is humankind's path to understanding God.

[edit on 25-7-2006 by Typhon]

Originally posted by Typhon
Im a religious person, but i believe in things a little differently then what people normally think.

I believe science is the path to understanding God, not disproving His existence.

Science has taught us that Something cannot be created from nothing. "Energy is neither created nor destroyed, it changes its form"
Therefore any theory involving the creation of the Universe without God's help is obviously impossible. How God was created or born, is not for us to understand.

I believe that Evolution is correct as well, but think of it this way, there are 100 trillion trillion billion (many more then this just too long to type) different combinations a single celled organism can evolve into something. Humans being just one of them. It seems almost impossible that it could have happend without divine assistance.

Think of it this way. Why couldnt the "Taking of a rib from Adam to create Eve" Been a "Cell reproducing by splitting at its 'side' "

Skipping ahead to Jesus. I believe Jesus was in essence God. I also believe Jesus Was married (probably to Mary Magdalin(sp?)) And probably had a child. He was much more human then the bible wants us to believe. Which was partially the point.


basically, what im saying is. Science is Right, but it cant be without God. Science is humankind's path to understanding God.

[edit on 25-7-2006 by Typhon]

We are a rare people me and you, most people ridicule me for saying science is all we have. Some people say no to this. They say we have faith also. That is what I mean as well. But faith in growing science. Prolonging the path to truth. Adam and Eve is a fable. The cell was a good point. I always say Eve is evolution and Adam is the atom.

Right on Street Corner!!! I totally dig your philosophy on Religion and the Bible. I think you are on the right path! Enjoy the rest of your journey.

Originally posted by BaastetNoir
When you are faced with something to choose from, you have the free will to choose whichever you want, and with that choice comes the resposibility and its consequences.

Qhen ppl choose to get drunk and drive, God di not make them do it ? they choose it.

When ppl win loteries and choose to share with charities, God didn't make them do it, they chose it. Whether you choose wiselly or not...it IS YOUR choice.

God's will (wish) that you would Follow him and earn the reward of Heaven, but he won't make you do it., because if He did, than that would not be a pure love, it would be something forced upon you.

I'm drawing a distinction (and maybe I shouldn't) between "free will" and "choice".
I believe there is a difference. Yes, we make choices almost every moment of every day and you've supplied some very good examples. When I contemplate the meaning of "free will", I'm considering the ability to make an "uncaused choice", whether the cause be internal or external. Now, remember the forum we're in, here. I'm coming at this from a theological perspective. I don't mean to say we're automatons, or can't make choices. I'm considering whether or not the choices made are, or even can be, totally without cause, hence "free".

This gets to be a bit tedious and I apologize for that. I'm not proposing that there's some external agent controlling whether or not you salt your peas. Or turn left. Or beat your kids. The question (given the subject matter) is: Can a carnal minded (that is, human) person "choose" to obey God?

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned

Now bear with me here... there are people who passionately believe you can "choose God" and by not doing so are condemned to eternal damnation. A person "must" choose to accept and love God "of his own free will", even though scripturally, we are not equipped to do that. I'm talking about the naturally unaided carnal mind of Man to be able to make a "free choice" to accept God. With dire consequences for failure to do so.

So where does this spiritual discernment come from if not from God? And if it's put there, is it free or not?

Acts 5:32 And we are His witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to them that obey Him.

So... you can't obey God without the Holy Spirit, and He only gives Holy Spirit to those who obey him. Circular, no?

My long way around the barn here is to suggest that it's God's will that determines the result and His will is everybody gets in the pool.

Thus, anyone promoting "fear tactics" for conversion is really really wrong, and not only wrong but damaging to the very cause they believe they are assisting.

[Edit typo]
[D'oh! again]

[edit on 8/2/2006 by yeahright]

[edit on 8/2/2006 by yeahright]

Originally posted by Typhon
I believe science is the path to understanding God, not disproving His existence.

Yes!!! I agree with all you've said, wholeheartedly!

I gave you a WATS!

He was much more human then the bible wants us to believe. Which was partially the point.

Yes--I agree--however I think it was religion's translations of the bible that did more to hide this than anything else--studying the Hebrew, I find that the writers of those books were prophesying about man, not God--God was giving the messages to these men--about men--and about the hope of mankind!

basically, what im saying is. Science is Right, but it cant be without God. Science is humankind's path to understanding God.

Yes! Logic, reasoning, and the ability to observe and make deductions are God-given abilities! For a purpose--His purpose--not to be thrown away as inconsistent with 'blind faith.' Our observations prove the soundness of our trust.

Originally posted by queenannie38

As for the rest of your ridiculous premise, satan is not 1/2 OF GOD, he is not even a 1/1000th of God, he is a fallen angel, removed from his place for the same kind of pride that makes a man rise up and say there is no God but me.

That fallen angel is the 'one sheep that was lost' out of the 99! It was for that angel that Yehoshua died! And the world benefited from that rebellion, in the long run.

'All things work for the good of those that love Him.' The one who was cast out loves God just as much as the others--it wasn't hate that made Him rebel, but jealousy--envy. Just like Cain...

Remember the story of the prodigal son? That's about the fallen one!

Annie, you seem to just make this stuff up as you go along. Satan, redeemed? Satan, the lamb that has gone astray?, the prodigal son? Surely you jest?There is certainly nothing in scripture to support your view - to the contrary, there are abundant scriptures that speak of his eventual destruction. And to contend that he loves God as much as anyone else, is staggering to say the least. Where do you get this stuff from.If you have proof, please, share it with the rest of us poor unenlightened schmucks.

Philosophers are probably responsible for more occupancies in hell than even wars.

Making comments like that--it's a good thing that all sins and blasphemies are forgiven!

It's a blasphemy and sin to accuse someone of error? And the only sins and blasphemies that are forgiven are the ones for which the sinner or blasphemer asks for it.

A person who makes an error, and repents or feels remorse for that error. ...then the person will make sure he never makes the same error again for the fear of god. Therefore it is not a sin. From errors and sins miracles are born.