Religion...Scaring us to be good.

Parasite,
My own take ( I've read the Bible, Koran and Mormon Bible ), is that we take
our own personal belief from what we've been taught, actually learn and truly believe.
Take the books as guidelines, if you will.

My 2 cent,
Lex

Originally posted by queenannie38

Philosophers are probably responsible for more occupancies in hell than even wars.

Making comments like that--it's a good thing that all sins and blasphemies are forgiven!

I do wish you'd allowed the Philosopher to answer for himself, queenie, for then he would have had to read the Bible to find an incidence, and make of himself an honest man for having said that he has "read the Bible".

He and I were not talking about if sins and blasphemies can be forgiven or not, and of course I know that they can, with the caveat you mentioned in your post.

The whole point of my communication with Philosopher is/was that most of what he says concerning the bible and God are not true.

The same with the other "philosophers" I've read or read about, Friedrich Nietszche, for one. For those who follow their "foolosophies" death can catch them unaware and then hell will be their reward.

I really am in hopes that you are not saying, or intimating really, that I've sinned by saying that suicides are by definition man killers, or that philosophers are responsible for occupancies in hell? Both statements are factual and for which are you throwing the hint/stone?

originally posted by queenieThat fallen angel is the 'one sheep that was lost' out of the 99! It was for that angel that Yehoshua died! And the world benefited from that rebellion, in the long run.

You know perfectly well that that "sheep" is not the lost sheep Jesus spoke of, nor is he hardly a sheep! You know that the "sheep" God speaks of are the "sheep of His hand", His PEOPLE, not his fallen angel, Lucifer, satan, enemy of souls. Jesus died because of that enemy's workings in the world and in people, not for the devil himself.

That is why satan is called the deceiver, the liar, the father of lies, and the Great Dragon, but is NEVER called a sheep of God! You know this, queenie!

Tell me how the world benefited by the devil's deception, queenie! Good grief, why do you take these off-side stands?

Was it because we got to die? Be separated from the relationship Adam and Eve had with God for so brief a time? See ourselves grow old, crippled, lame, blind? Is that the benefit you speak of? Watch our families be decimated by the devil's cheap imitations of pain-relief, alcohol, drugs, tobacco, doctors?

Or how about all the accidents you spoke of, on equipment God allowed men to have the material to make? Are they benefits?

How about starving, war-stunned babies? Evil is in the world. And woe to us! Just as the Bible says.

But God has given men the power to become sons of God, to do the works that Jesus did in his human form, and even greater, the power to choose the good and eschew the evil, to worship Him and Him alone, and to rely on His goodness, grace and mercy for our every need.

Man has not yet realized the grace given them in granting power to become Sons of God, but one day we will. The Sons of God will be manifested, and they will be God-filled men, not angels. The devil will go to his place of everlasting torment, and I, for one, hope the Lord will allow me to see him suffer for all the horrible things he has loosed on mankind.

Originally posted by The Parasite
Im not a religious man so to me this is what i believe happened. I dont like the fact that GOD creats us then kills us and its all a test.

here it is:

Man is the only animals on earth that know we are going to die we just dont know when. We also need an answer to everything so we made God the "creater of life". And we also want a place to go when we die insted of darkness and sleeping for internity so we created heave and hell. Now our ancesters were hoping to create heaven that their childrens, children ect will grow up to be good people and get ride of all hate and also to add on the goodness part they added hell in the mix to scare us to be good or we get burned for all interinty. This makes alot of sence if you are not highly religious.

The bible was created my many people though out the years and the earlyest of the books of christ was the book of morman by one man i dont remeber his name because it is not importaint to me. Not only the fact the on one god controly everything that goes on other people like muhamid took this to the next level and created a differ path to "gods will" and also many things like Iovas (jahovas), chirstians, cathlic, and many more all run from the same real thing that the first religion grew old to people and was lost forever and the way we want it know has risin.

Our ancesters are looking down on what they created as hell they dont like what has become of what they created. the reason i know this because i know i would be pissed too.

Though out one thing that we needed to answer as man has lead to what we think is killing man.

God is man made he is a figment of our imagination that has grown to strong for any one to stop. It will live on for ever and as long as it does their will be killing to protect gods will and god himself

So the bad thing about SOME Religions is that it actualy tries to give ppl some morals ?? wow .. what an evil thing to do.

Let's ban all religions and become disgusting litle perverted beasts and very very happy in our "freedom" of murdering, stealing, rapping and do whatver else our litle "free" minds can think of. Evil Evil religions, don't let us be the litle moronic beasts we should be...

P.S. - I would also like to know how on Earth did you find out what animals know or not ??? I assume you must have interviewd plenty of animals to get to their conclusion. I mean, obviosuly the Bible haters will jump on me for making this statement, but i would really like to know where this study, about what animals know or not came from ?

Originally posted by curiousity
I do wish you'd allowed the Philosopher to answer for himself, queenie, for then he would have had to read the Bible to find an incidence, and make of himself an honest man for having said that he has "read the Bible".

He seems rather mild mannered--and not one prone to defense--which is wise, in and of itself.

But I wasn't answering for him--I was just giving my own observations and thoughts.

And you are claiming that he is not honest in saying he's read the bible...why do you say that? Because he doesn't say he believes what you believe?

He and I were not talking about if sins and blasphemies can be forgiven or not, and of course I know that they can, with the caveat you mentioned in your post.

The whole point of my communication with Philosopher is/was that most of what he says concerning the bible and God are not true.

How do you know? If you can't prove it, for sure, then you are accusing him of something which might not be true. And that's not good. I posted several verses that did say what you said the bible didn't say.

The reason it is a harsh accusation to call someone untrue is that it is a non-defensible accusation--who can prove they speak the truth, especially when it comes to things which are 'unseen?' Only God is witness to know that--and if so, we should leave it up to Him and not even risk making false accusations--which are just as untrue as a bold-faced lie. Because unless we have absolute proof someone is lying, then we're taking a serious risk. You say Philosopher doesn't read his bible and isn't truthful in saying that he does. But how can you prove that?

The same with the other "philosophers" I've read or read about, Friedrich Nietszche, for one. For those who follow their "foolosophies" death can catch them unaware and then hell will be their reward.

Reading the words that other men have written, and finding bits of merit in their words--or even bigger pieces of truth--that doesn't mean the same as 'following in their footsteps' at all! We are not to call one another a 'fool' or equivalent, either--especially based on things we have no right to judge as far as what others choose to do, follow, believe, or think.

I really am in hopes that you are not saying, or intimating really, that I've sinned by saying that suicides are by definition man killers, or that philosophers are responsible for occupancies in hell? Both statements are factual and for which are you throwing the hint/stone?

I'm not throwing stones at anyone--I've never thrown a stone in my life that wasn't put in my hand already--but this time I'm throwing nothing. You say 'both statements are factual'--what exactly is your basis for that assertion? Yes, suicide is murder (turned inward)--an extreme point from which depression (anger turned inward) is the root. But God forgives murderers and even chooses them as His spokespersons quite frequently. Would He not forgive a suicide?

My statement, however, was not directed at any certain statement--just the fact that it's a good thing there isn't such a thing as you are wishing upon other people, indirectly or not--that's what you are doing with your judgments which are your own, and not God's. Have mercy so that He will have mercy upon you--that's something I know is true and was said with His authority--I feel it is the wisest course of action.

You know perfectly well that that "sheep" is not the lost sheep Jesus spoke of, nor is he hardly a sheep! You know that the "sheep" God speaks of are the "sheep of His hand", His PEOPLE, not his fallen angel, Lucifer, satan, enemy of souls. Jesus died because of that enemy's workings in the world and in people, not for the devil himself.

How do you know what I know 'perfectly well?' I know perfectly well the dynamics of the sacrifice but it is something no one would want to hear, including you. I know God's greatness and His unbelievably merciful loving-kindness and I understand the purpose of evil--and it isn't something outside of God's plan.

Tell me how the world benefited by the devil's deception, queenie! Good grief, why do you take these off-side stands?

Because I stand on God's instruction and I stand on the faith of His Son. If I tried to explain, you wouldn't listen, anyway--it's not like I haven't gone on and on about this very thing countless times even here at ATS.

Was it because we got to die? Be separated from the relationship Adam and Eve had with God for so brief a time? See ourselves grow old, crippled, lame, blind? Is that the benefit you speak of? Watch our families be decimated by the devil's cheap imitations of pain-relief, alcohol, drugs, tobacco, doctors?

Hey--it was the tree of the knowledge of good AND evil--not just good and not just evil. Think about it.

Or how about all the accidents you spoke of, on equipment God allowed men to have the material to make? Are they benefits?

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. But would you rather live in a cave with a headful of lice?

How about starving, war-stunned babies? Evil is in the world. And woe to us! Just as the Bible says.

No--death is in the world--that is not 'evil.' Evil is misery, yes--but God creates evil and so He creates our misery. But death is the doing of man--the 'wages of sin' which is death, bequeathed by Adam. Who was a man. Not an angel.

But God has given men the power to become sons of God, to do the works that Jesus did in his human form, and even greater, the power to choose the good and eschew the evil, to worship Him and Him alone, and to rely on His goodness, grace and mercy for our every need.

God has given the promise--not the power, as of yet--that is, it has not manifested.

The Sons of God will be manifested, and they will be God-filled men, not angels.

That's right--God filled men.

The devil will go to his place of everlasting torment, and I, for one, hope the Lord will allow me to see him suffer for all the horrible things he has loosed on mankind.

The beast and the false prophet is who you are referring to, right? And 'the accuser of our brethren?' The 'devil' isn't even a clearly defined term, anyway. Satan is not a person or angel but a title--an adversary which God provides when it is necessary. The 'devil' is the dragon--but no one understands who the Dragon is, so that's not something worth talking about--but God's 'employees'--whether they are in the form of angels or men--do not lie. Ever. There is no guile upon their lips. That is--unless God gives them a 'lying spirit.'

Who let the 'devil' loose these horrible things on mankind? God? Adam? Eve? the Snake? Who to blame? God takes responsibility--as I said above God said 'I make peace and create evil.'

Who are we to wish anyone to suffer like that if we aren't willing to be subjected to the same? Who can we blame but ourselves, each and every time, as individuals?

Ok, queenie, I'm through with this.

You are consistent in "misinterpreting" my statements, answering in such a way that to refute what you answer would require quoting huge amounts from previous posts, thereby making the points near impossible to ascertain. Quite clever, actually, subtil, you might say.

In any event, it has grown tiresome to continue to untwist what you answer enough to make the posts you quote from straight again.

I'm tired of it, and of this forum.

If there was even one Christian, besides me, in this mess who was actually looking for some way to grasp the Apostles' teaching and to discover why the church today is so far from that, I'd stay and never mind you and the others who are so determined either to demean Christianity or to disguise and distort the truth with meandering reasonings.

But then that is not what this forum is all about, is it?

Now, if I'm wrong, pm me, you who would like to discuss what I've mentioned here, who would like to dig into the history and research for the source of the status of the Christian church of today. I'll get it. And together maybe we can bring some light into this dark place.

A frase by Curiosity

"How about starving, war-stunned babies? Evil is in the world. And woe to us! Just as the Bible says."

I would like to ask you this about Evil since it does obviousley exists:

1) Does God not realise it is there (Not Omniscient)

2)Does God know it is there but can't do nothing about it (Not Omnipotent)

3) God knoes it is there but will not do anything about it ( Malevolent?)

What does your Bible answer to the questions ?

Osbert+

Originally posted by Osbert
A frase by Curiosity

"How about starving, war-stunned babies? Evil is in the world. And woe to us! Just as the Bible says."

I would like to ask you this about Evil since it does obviousley exists:

1) Does God not realise it is there (Not Omniscient)

2)Does God know it is there but can't do nothing about it (Not Omnipotent)

3) God knoes it is there but will not do anything about it ( Malevolent?)

What does your Bible answer to the questions ?

Osbert+

The Biblical answer to all of the questions aboce is FREE WILL... Don't blame God becausse you decided not to anything to help whom you could help.

Why is there Evil in the world ? Becasue most ppl choose evil over good. Period.

If ppl do not believe God exists, than they should stop whinning about the Evil in the wordl. If God doesnt exist than obvisouly he can't do anything.

If ppl believe God is evil for letting children starve in this world, than those same ppl should firt look at themselves and ask " Instead of blaiming God for my personal lazyness, what have I donne today to help the starving ppl ?"

But Free Will is a hard frog to swallow, specially when its alot better to blame somoene else for the problems in the world.

Originally posted by curiousity
You are consistent in "misinterpreting" my statements, answering in such a way that to refute what you answer would require quoting huge amounts from previous posts, thereby making the points near impossible to ascertain.

I was answering your questions. You framed them as questions, I answered them directly from the scriptures. The problem with refuting my reply is simply that there is no refutation--if you want to approach it from a biblical reference point, my answers were solid.
From a 'christian' viewpoint they are probably offensive. So be it. I'm not here to join in the christian brigade.

Quite clever, actually, subtil, you might say.

As in 'to make bare?' Clever isn't bad, neither is prudence--which that word also means. As well as 'smoothly.'

So, considering that: thanks for noticing.

In any event, it has grown tiresome to continue to untwist what you answer enough to make the posts you quote from straight again.

I didn't twist anything.

But then that is not what this forum is all about, is it?

ATS is about 'denying ignorance.' It would seem the bible and ignorance thereof are included, since there is a religion/faith forum on both ATS and BTS.

If you don't want me to rend your posts to bits, don't base them on the bible--because I will call you (and whomever else) out on it, every time--not to be a jerk or a know-it-all, but toward the cause of denying ignorance.

Notice who I 'attack' and who I don't--then you'll see I am speaking honestly.

Question for the crowd...

Or more specifically, for believers in God-

The notion of "free will" is a very complex one. And I'm not sure we all agree on exactly what that means. Is "free choice" the same thing as "free will"? Wait, that's not the question yet.

If you believe in God and God's will, then how can people have free will? Wouldn't the existence of free will for people mean that a person's free will could supercede the will of God? If it couldn't then it isn't free. Is it?

Originally posted by yeahright
Question for the crowd...

Or more specifically, for believers in God-

The notion of "free will" is a very complex one. And I'm not sure we all agree on exactly what that means. Is "free choice" the same thing as "free will"? Wait, that's not the question yet.

If you believe in God and God's will, then how can people have free will? Wouldn't the existence of free will for people mean that a person's free will could supercede the will of God? If it couldn't then it isn't free. Is it?

Free will and free choice are the same thing. Tell me .. did God make you come here and post this question ? no .. he didnt.. there yo go .. your question has been answered.

Obviously despite God's will you still chose to come here, therefore you ahve free will.

Originally posted by queenannie38

Originally posted by The Parasite
why not??? i dont undersand ur question

Why don't you like the 'fact that GOD creats us then kills us and its all a test'?

Well I'll answer your question. The way you worded that question it makes it sound like God is just a person, not free of all negative attributes, but instead an omnipotent being with the primitive human mind, filled with the anxiety to create things and make things go wrong and cause them pain and kill them and simply play around with them for self-amusement.

But I'm religious; that question was mostly because of how the question was worded.

Originally posted by BaastetNoir
Obviously despite God's will you still chose to come here, therefore you ahve free will.

So you think my being here on ATS is contrary to God's will? That's very interesting, indeed. Or have I misunderstood? Or was that a li'l sarcasm? Hey, I'm prone to sarcasm myself, so I'm just asking.

Curiosity, (I hope you do not own a cat)

If all you have to answer is a loud FREE WILL, I must say that I find it very poor, we do not have free will.
It seems we have been created with a strong will to live,a strong will to possess and a strong will to reproduce. The will to be good is a fair way down.
But these are instincts, not free will:If I had free will I would chose to "be" various things, maybe a bird, an elephant, a crocodile, I would be goodness and I would be evil, and at the end of my "being" trip I would be able to make a discerned choice.
Free will is priestly invention to make you feel guilty.

Osbert+


The first clergyman was the first rascal that met the first fool (Voltaire)

Originally posted by yeahright

Originally posted by BaastetNoir
Obviously despite God's will you still chose to come here, therefore you ahve free will.

So you think my being here on ATS is contrary to God's will? That's very interesting, indeed. Or have I misunderstood? Or was that a li'l sarcasm? Hey, I'm prone to sarcasm myself, so I'm just asking.

No i simply was saying, that despite whatever God's will could be or not, you choose to get up in the morning, turn on the computer and ome to ATS...God didn't make you do it.

Originally posted by Osbert
Curiosity, (I hope you do not own a cat)

If all you have to answer is a loud FREE WILL, I must say that I find it very poor, we do not have free will.

Do you even understand what free will is ? Probably not, thast why you think its a week answer. Tell me.. what God force you or mdae you to come here to this board and type your answer ?

It seems we have been created with a strong will to live,a strong will to possess and a strong will to reproduce. The will to be good is a fair way down.
But these are instincts, not free will:If I had free will I would chose to "be" various things, maybe a bird, an elephant, a crocodile, I would be goodness and I would be evil, and at the end of my "being" trip I would be able to make a discerned choice.

Really ? So if you wake up one day, decide to laod a shot gun and blow your neighboors braisn out just for the kicsk and than rape is 4 years old child (this IS an example) you did it out of instinct, just like an elephant would do, huh ?

Free will is priestly invention to make you feel guilty.

Thas funny... I have my free will, live in perfect harmony with it and I don't feel guilty of nothing... and you know why ? Because i have no fear of my choices, and the resposibility 5that comes with them. And i have total knowledge and acceptance that if I screw up, I'll have to pay whatver the price is. And thats just how life goes...

Now... maybe one day, when you start taking TOTAL responsibility of your actions ( in a realm that you can't even think of), maybe than you will see that you won't feel guilty at all... unless you did something you know you shouldn't have ..like blowing your neighboors head of just for the kicks


P.S. - don't forget to tell me what God made you come to this board again and "forced" you to reply or not.


The first clergyman was the first rascal that met the first fool (Voltaire)

If I were to wake up one day and started shooting people's heads off I would be mad, I didn' t think we were discussing the causes or effects of madness.

If I choose to come up to this board again it is because I need to interact and understand first hand my limitations or the limitations of other individuals.
No man is an island, I do it in order to acquire some knowledge. It is ultimately a selfish act and by knowing if other people are more or less stupid than I am it will increase my chances to do better... It comes under survival instinct.

If you are a religious person you acquire more chances to screw up, the pursuit of good leeds to the discovery of evil( I don't expect you to see that though)

Osbert+

Originally posted by BaastetNoir
No i simply was saying, that despite whatever God's will could be or not, you choose to get up in the morning, turn on the computer and ome to ATS...God didn't make you do it.

Allow me to modify my original hastily worded question (and if I've made this all too confusing, feel free to ignore me). Is 'free will' the same as 'choice'? (Notice I've removed the 'free' descriptor before 'choice', hence the potential confusion. I shouldn't have phrased the question the way I did originally).

I'm particularly interested in knowing how a believer in God and God's will can simultaneously believe in free will for people. If there is a God and he has a will, then 'free will' for people would seem contradictory. Wouldn't it?

I believe in free will to decide if I should go left or right. My consequences from cause and effect will eventually lead me to heaven or hell. But i don't have the power to elude God's will. Im a co-pilot in a plane. God is the pilot.

So it boils down to be choosing my destiny. But a choice of 2. IMO.

Originally posted by curiousity

Originally posted by queenannie38

Philosophers are probably responsible for more occupancies in hell than even wars.

Making comments like that--it's a good thing that all sins and blasphemies are forgiven!

I do wish you'd allowed the Philosopher to answer for himself, queenie, for then he would have had to read the Bible to find an incidence, and make of himself an honest man for having said that he has "read the Bible".

He and I were not talking about if sins and blasphemies can be forgiven or not, and of course I know that they can, with the caveat you mentioned in your post.

The whole point of my communication with Philosopher is/was that most of what he says concerning the bible and God are not true.

The same with the other "philosophers" I've read or read about, Friedrich Nietszche, for one. For those who follow their "foolosophies" death can catch them unaware and then hell will be their reward.

I really am in hopes that you are not saying, or intimating really, that I've sinned by saying that suicides are by definition man killers, or that philosophers are responsible for occupancies in hell? Both statements are factual and for which are you throwing the hint/stone?

Curious...you must not be so curious. If one neglects knowledge, then he is not curious. I can see your bookshelf right now, Ive seen many people like you who only read the bible. Not bad, but also not good.

I simply interpret the bible differently than you do...thats it. I do read it. If you don't believe me, I could care less, because I know the bible !. I went to catholic school !!! How can you say I don't know the bible !

Queen understands. She is confident because her intuitive and insight does not betray her. Her confidence eminates from within because she trusts herself. But im not sure you do Curious. Dogmatic minds tend to sway away from the morals, the meanings, the metaphors and the analogies. The bible has many literal truths as well. But can curiousity distinguish them and know the true meanings?

God is both the inner Christ concience and the inner satan conscience. So if a person murders, it's because the person is not intune with the inner christ conscience and he is cut off from it. Satan has inherited that particular person's soul and therefore controls it. God to me, is both christ and satan. Remember that Curiousity ... I speak no lies. Remember that Jesus was a philosopher....so when you bash philosophers you insult what christ himself tried to do, and thats spread truth. We all have his power inside us. Pray in front of a mirror, look at yourself, and not up into the sky. The only one that can hear you is yourself.

[edit on 7/13/2006 by StreetCorner Philosopher]

Well, that's a loaded statement, but let me focus on one part of it. If you're the co-pilot and God's the pilot, and your will cannot supercede God's will, then don't you have a "restricted" or "limited" free will?

And since the definition of "free" is "without limit, restriction, or restraint", I would maintain that either God's will is paramount, or we have free will. I don't see how it can be both. Either God has a will and a plan and a purpose, or not.

I certainly respect anyone's viewpoint, and deism works for some, but I fail to comprehend how anyone with a belief in a God with a will can believe people have free will.

Hey, I'm willing to entertain that it's my shortcoming. I'm just trying to get a grasp.

Originally posted by yeahright
Well, that's a loaded statement, but let me focus on one part of it. If you're the co-pilot and God's the pilot, and your will cannot supercede God's will, then don't you have a "restricted" or "limited" free will?

And since the definition of "free" is "without limit, restriction, or restraint", I would maintain that either God's will is paramount, or we have free will. I don't see how it can be both. Either God has a will and a plan and a purpose, or not.

I certainly respect anyone's viewpoint, and deism works for some, but I fail to comprehend how anyone with a belief in a God with a will can believe people have free will.

Hey, I'm willing to entertain that it's my shortcoming. I'm just trying to get a grasp.

Your statement is very logical. I cannot disagree. But I think about parallel universes. Perhaps a particular decision you make affects you in this universe. But all of the other possibilities from possible options and decisions probably are affecting the parallel universes. If I decide to wash my face for example....and I wash it, there could be another universe where I decided not to wash my face at that same particular moment. Hundreds or thousands of possibilites also happening simultainiously in parallel universes.

There is probably another me or another you who did the exact opposite of what you did here in this life. All in theory of course...