U.S. ARMY to Delete Geneva Protocols

Originally posted by ShadowXIX

Originally posted by grover
great! smart move donald...we stop applying the geneva convention but watch us howl if others treat us the same. damned neo-cons think the rules do not apply to them....fools.

Yeah US troops have always gotten such great treatment when they were POWs

before and after geneva convention.

The Japanese in WW2 the Korean in the Korean war and the VC in Vietnam they all followed the geneva convention so great when they had American POW. Now the Islamic fighters yeah they treat POWs great.

So its ok to act like animals because they do? This makes sense to you? I thought this was a war to get rise of the animals, not become them.

Originally posted by jsobecky
Someone can walk away from the humiliation of being threatened by a snarling dog. It is impossible to walk away from a beheading.

You completely missed the point, but that is not surprising. Most Americans do not understand why the Islamic world (heck, everyone else too) has an axe to grind with us. It is all about respect and the fact that America traditionally doesn't give any to anyone. Now don't get all excited and say that America is always the first to help out during a natural disaster or that America is protecting half of the world, we already know that is to be the truth. The problem is that America does so and then rubs it in the faces of those that they are helping. This is why the Islamic countries have an axe to grind. They see America holding them down and treating them like cattle, while their sworn enemy (Israel) gets treated like a long lost family member by America. We have to start showing some serious respect for these people and start honoring their wishes and customs while we are in their countries. Only then will they start to see we are serious about honoring their wishes will they turn their attitude around.

Is it too unreasonable to expect them to draft reasonable responses also?

And what is a reasonable response... in their cultural frame? We're in their country and must abide by their rules and customs. We must understand what their taboos are and not affend their long standing traditions. We must understand what they consider a reasonable response. We must also understand what is a reasonable action as well. We like to think we are superior to their people, yet we don't show it in any shape or fashion. IMO, we are reaping what we sow. We will be much better off when we start showing their culture some respect and honoring their ways. Only then will they begin to draft reasonable responses.

Originally posted by Gools
Either that or they know exactly what they are doing.

US Army is not from Yesterday - and their Bosses are not either.

So I think they know Exactly what they are doing.

That's the Worst part of this.

But hey - Now EVERYBODY can erase Geneva protocols from their Manuals!

WEll, not that it would change anything, since it looks to me like nobody is actually following the Geneva Conventions etiher. So, why the hell did they bother to write it down?

people we are playing by the rules in iraq at the moment more or less and look whats happening. we need to do something drastic to stop the kidnappings and suicide bombers and if that means we have to torture the enemy then im all for that. i would far rather iraqi terrorists get tortured than us and british troops and iraqi civillians get killed.

justin

people we are playing by the rules in iraq at the moment more or less and look whats happening. we need to do something drastic to stop the kidnappings and suicide bombers and if that means we have to torture the enemy then im all for that. i would far rather iraqi terrorists get tortured than us and british troops and iraqi civillians get killed.

justin

Originally posted by justin_barton3
people we are playing by the rules in iraq at the moment more or less and look whats happening. we need to do something drastic to stop the kidnappings and suicide bombers and if that means we have to torture the enemy then im all for that. i would far rather iraqi terrorists get tortured than us and british troops and iraqi civillians get killed.

And do you Honestly Think that this Excellent "NEW" Tactics will be Effective?

As it looks like to me, they are Already ignorning Geneva Conventions and other "Law Stuff" - but with this they just want to avoid all the Bitching about it from Lawyers, Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, Red Cross and other agencies like that.

But; it will not be Effective whatsoever.

It will be more COUNTER-Productive - since you can see already what kind of Chaos is in Iraq, and US and UK Armies are already breaking Laws and Conventions.

And I honestly think, that there is maybe 10 or 12 REAL Terrorists arrested and held in Detention camps - everybody else is just for the "Number".

Originally posted by justin_barton3
people we are playing by the rules in iraq at the moment more or less and look whats happening. we need to do something drastic to stop the kidnappings and suicide bombers and if that means we have to torture the enemy then im all for that. i would far rather iraqi terrorists get tortured than us and british troops and iraqi civillians get killed.

justin

If you're fighting a fire, the last thing you need to do is pour more petrol onto it! What the hell would torture produce? Apart from more hatred and more violence?
Iraq is currently on the brink of a civil war. Ethnic cleansing is effectively going on, sunni vs shia, sunni vs kurd, shia vs kurd. The Iraqi government cannot decide at the moment who is to take over commend of the two most important ministeries - the police and the army. It's a mess.
And anyone who now says 'lets tear up the geneva convention' really does NOT know what they are talking about.

only problem is.....

I think having those pictures of naked prisoners taken was more degrading to us and the military than it was of the prisoners!!! and having cheney fight tooth and nail trying to block them from passing another law banning torture, as well as them taking out this policy of the geneva convention seems to re enforce my believe that those pictures, or at least the actions that produced them were ordered from the top! They should just announce to the world that they no longer have any intention of abiding by the treaty the US has signed, since they seem to have no intention of abiding by it.

I don't care if we are the world's only super power, having our top brass and this administration held and charged in international courts for warcrimes is a possibility. I do hope they realize this.

The problem we have here is the moral highground in politics. Ghandi said, "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind".

Originally posted by The Iconoclast
You completely missed the point, but that is not surprising.

No, I didn't, and your response was anticipated. You are saying that we must understand what "humiliation" means to them. I say, they need to wise up and join the civilized world. The days of the scimitar and camel are over.

And what is a reasonable response... in their cultural frame? We're in their country and must abide by their rules and customs.

No we don't need to accept their "culture", as you call it. "Culture" does not include murder of innocents in the name of some apparition, debasement of women, and chopping helpless prisoner's head off.

They need to understand that there are other ways to respond. It's time they joined the 21st century.

How could you! You're America not some third world country, you are supposed to BE BETTER then them! What is next with this Administration and the people who support it?

"Well since they flew planes into our buildings we will hijack their planes and crash them into their buildings. Heck, they just blew up a hospital with a suicide bomber so we will blow up all of their hospitals."

That is wrong! You are America you are supposed to be better then this!

Moral high ground? Or a continuation of death and destruction because we choose to follow “rules” while the other side does not? The choice to me is very obvious.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Moral high ground? Or a continuation of death and destruction because we choose to follow “rules” while the other side does not? The choice to me is very obvious.

BULLHOOEY!!! or do i have to be more explicit. One of the reasons we succeeded after WW2 is that the propaganda from the Axis countries had that we would torture and abuse and out right murder their POW's so when captured these soldiers fully expected to be treated just how they treated our POWs and what did they find? That despite all the horror and evil that is war, let me repeat myself THE HORROR AND EVIL THAT IS WAR and despite all expectations, we treated them decently. A little human decency goes a long way, even in war, or maybe most especially in war. If we behave just as vily as our opponant, just because they do, makes us no better. Or more specifically what part of "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" don't you understand?

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Moral high ground? Or a continuation of death and destruction because we choose to follow “rules” while the other side does not? The choice to me is very obvious.

Lets play that out for a moment shall we. We capture a terrorist and humiliate them publicly, that will only cause more hatred from the people we are fighting so we up the ante a little, so we torture them out right, the people see this and get more angry causing more violence. So we up the ante once again to out right killing the terrorists we catch as a lesson to whoever might try to cause us harm, but you must remember that for their friends and family they are not terrorists but freedom fighters with a just cause, so they will pick up the fight and attack us as well. So with so many against us we decide that hey lets just kill them all (remember you said that there are no rules) and start a campaign of genocide.
Thats why we have the saying “slippery slope”
peace
Mr Mx

Originally posted by jsobecky
No, I didn't, and your response was anticipated. You are saying that we must understand what "humiliation" means to them. I say, they need to wise up and join the civilized world. The days of the scimitar and camel are over.

If you anticipated it, why make the ignorant statement then? If you truly understood what I was saying you would have recognized that they feel like we are preventing them from joining the "civilized" world. You would have recognized that they have the same feelings toward the west as African Americans do towards towards our society. They feel like they have been held down for so long that they have no serious potential of bettering their lot in the world because of their own predisposition to a racist agenda. They have given up "trying" to play by our rules and are striking back in the only way they know. Right or wrong, it's presently the only course of action they see as having a hope.

No we don't need to accept their "culture", as you call it. "Culture" does not include murder of innocents in the name of some apparition, debasement of women, and chopping helpless prisoner's head off.

They need to understand that there are other ways to respond. It's time they joined the 21st century.

Who are YOU to tell someone else what is acceptable within their culture? The level of arrogance that statement requires in unfathomable. Just because YOU were raised under the constructs of Western society, and think the norms of our world are the standard, does not make them right for everyone. Believe it or not, not everyone wants to be an American. Not everyone wants to emulate the morals were have developed, and rightly so. A society that holds Paris Hilton and Brittany Spears as cultural icons isn't one I would recommend emulating.



I don't personally agree with standards that muslims have chosen to live under, but they have chosen that path. Their religion is the guiding principle in their lives and we should respect that fact. If they want to "get into the 21st century" they will do just that. At this point, it appears that they are not readily embracing that in Afghanistan or Iraq. Maybe we should respect their wishes and allow them to do as they see fit. Or would you prefer that the Scandanavians tell us how to run our country? They have a higher standard of living and much better moral fabric to base a system on.

Iconoclast makes a good point, I wish we in the USA would get over the Greed and Power Mongering and Star worshipping and get back to just making the world a better place for all. I cannot agree with the removal of these instructions from the Soldiers Manuals, all it really does is point out that a rabid pack of wild dogs has taken power from the American People.

Originally posted by The Iconoclast
If you anticipated it, why make the ignorant statement then? If you truly understood what I was saying you would have recognized that they feel like we are preventing them from joining the "civilized" world. You would have recognized that they have the same feelings toward the west as African Americans do towards towards our society. They feel like they have been held down for so long that they have no serious potential of bettering their lot in the world because of their own predisposition to a racist agenda. They have given up "trying" to play by our rules and are striking back in the only way they know. Right or wrong, it's presently the only course of action they see as having a hope.

You're trying to say that they have sat down in good faith at the negotiating table and been double-crossed. Nothing could be further from the truth. They have never played by our rules. They are not trying to join the civilized world; they are trying to suppress freedom of any kind.

And it is very disingenuous of you to lump all African-Americans under the same umbrella. Who are you to act as their spokesman?

Who are YOU to tell someone else what is acceptable within their culture? The level of arrogance that statement requires in unfathomable.

You call it arrogance, I call it calling a spade a spade. Who, except for you, believes that intentionally massacaring innocents is an acceptable culture?

I don't personally agree with standards that muslims have chosen to live under, but they have chosen that path.

Yes you do, or you wouldn't be defending them so vociferously. You may "respect" their murdering ways, but don't ask me to.

Originally posted by jsobecky
You're trying to say that they have sat down in good faith at the negotiating table and been double-crossed. Nothing could be further from the truth. They have never played by our rules. They are not trying to join the civilized world; they are trying to suppress freedom of any kind.

Again, your ignorance and arrogance is showing. They don't have to play by our rules. We are in their country. We should be abiding by their rules and adopting their culture and customs. We have no right to go into their home and dictate to them how they are to do things. If you feel that we have the right to go into their country and dictate to them how things are done, then you better not say a damn thing about Mexicans and Mexian Americans demanding the adoption of spanish as a second official language, its the same issue.

And it is very disingenuous of you to lump all African-Americans under the same umbrella. Who are you to act as their spokesman?

Yet it's okay for YOU to lump in all of Islam under one umbrella. Nice double standard. Always a bench mark of the uniformed. I was not speaking for any African Americans, I was making a sociological observation that has been supported by African Americans like Cornel West, Jessie Jackson and Bill Cosby. The disenfranchisement they feel is what prevents their assimilation into mainstream society. Same issue, just a different angle on how they are dealing with it.

You call it arrogance, I call it calling a spade a spade. Who, except for you, believes that intentionally massacaring innocents is an acceptable culture?
Yes you do, or you wouldn't be defending them so vociferously. You may "respect" their murdering ways, but don't ask me to.

Oh, how ironic your comments are, considering the incidents at Haditha and Abu Grahib. Careful where you hurl those rocks while you live in that glasshouse.

And please don't put words in my mouth. Those are the actions of someone who is either a brownshirt or has nothing to backup their argument. I respect the people and their culture and don't lump in the extremeist in with the average person. If I did I would have to think that Americans are represented by the views of extremeists like Pat Robertson (we really should be assassinating Chavez, right?) and the likes that bomb abortion clinics and assassinate those that work there. There are extremeists in all cultures, but they are not reflective of the those norms that represent those cultures. We have to recognize this fact and work with those that follow the cultural norm, and work within the constraints of their culture.

Originally posted by grover
If we behave just as vily as our opponant, just because they do, makes us no better. Or more specifically what part of "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" don't you understand?

Well, when do you say enough? We are nowhere near the level of our enemy yet we get more criticism and hatred then they do, so what’s up? And to make matters worse our soldier are dying because the PC police suddenly know how to run a war. The US and more specifically our soldiers are never going to get treated accordingly no matter how we act, those who hate us aren’t going to change. If the military deems it necessary to use new laws and tactics against our enemy then they should, they know more than someone who only deals with the theoretical and academic field, they’re actually on the battlefield believe it or not.


[edit on 8-6-2006 by WestPoint23]

OH PLEASE WESTPOINT!!! The PC police as you call them don't have anything to do with this. Why does it matter that we follow the conventions even if our opponant doesn't? Because we make such a big and bloody hoopala over our morality and justice and all that, so like it our not when we don't live up to out highly prouted ideals as in Abu Graib for example...it makes us look even that much worse. It is abosolutely no skin off our backs to behave civilly even or maybe especially when our enemies don't. To emulate them gains us nothing.