Prevailing Left blowing wind on ATS (Op/Ed)

Originally posted by MuaddibI understand if the staff have their own opinion, but not wanting to upgrade submissions because "it does not fit with their view" is very unprofessional and rude.

Are you still having a hissy fit over that fake story you posted on ATSNN? You know, the one claiming Iran was going to start issuing Jew badges.

[edit on 3-6-2006 by Jamuhn]

Originally posted by Jamuhn

Originally posted by MuaddibI understand if the staff have their own opinion, but not wanting to upgrade submissions because "it does not fit with their view" is very unprofessional and rude.

Are you still having a hissy fit over that fake story you posted on ATSNN? You know, the one claiming Iran was going to start issuing Jew badges.

[edit on 3-6-2006 by Jamuhn]

Please, that has no relevence on this topic.

Originally posted by intrepid
Please, that has no relevence on this topic.

How so? Muadibb questions the actions of the staff in regards to ATSNN, therefore, I question his intentions in return.

The very fact that this thread on "Prevailing Left blowing wind on ATS" was sent to submission and upgraded shows how "biased" ATSNN is.

[edit on 3-6-2006 by Jamuhn]

Originally posted by Jamuhn

Originally posted by intrepid
Please, that has no relevence on this topic.

How so? Muadibb questions the actions of the staff in regards to ATSNN, therefore, I question his intentions in return.

[edit on 3-6-2006 by Jamuhn]

You say potAto, he says potato, same thing, same result. He questions our actions, we'll answer if it seems necessary.

Now back to your regularily scheduled topic.

Originally posted by intrepid
You say potAto, he says potato, same thing, same result. He questions our actions, we'll answer if it seems necessary.
Now back to your regularily scheduled topic.

Even though I disagree, since you are a moderator, I guess I have no choice but to accept your directive.

[edit on 3-6-2006 by Jamuhn]

Im still trying to work out why this op/ed made it to ATSNN. American politics is nothing more the two groups of delusional people arguing and should be treated as such.
Cheers Xpert11.

Originally Posted by semperfortis
Is it that the Liberals are more outspoken, or that the Conservatives are just tired of the same old lines being attached to their opinions? The attacks I have witnessed are derogatory and inflaming at most and vicious and untrue at the least. Does all of this stem from the incredible and unexplainable hatred for President Bush or a hate for all things conservative?

While I don't align myself with either side, as I'm a devout Independant, I think the Conservative view appears to be silent because they are still in a state of shock at what their top representative has done to their party image. Bush has almost single-handedly ruined the image of every Republican in the nation with his unrelenting iron-handed approach to fighting a war he'll never win.

If one follows the cirular logic of his plan, they can see that he knew what he was setting up when he started it. He says he's going to stop ALL terrorism everywhere, but in that very statement alone, he unwittingly reveals his true plan. What he knows is that there will be a never-ending flood of people that disagree with him. He affectively started a war on Evil, or at least that's the way I heard it. It insures that there will always be a need for forces deployed worldwide, which will be the impetus for the set-up of an International Occupation Force, or IOF. I foresee only bad things from this train of thought.

It's oddly reminiscent of a movie story I've seen. At first, the Republic is established with the highest esteems, but over time, it becomes corrupted by the very people that supposedly represent the People. At their weakest moment, a leader of apparent good standing comes to the rescue, with the promise of peace. What the people don't know is that he harbors secret plans to rule the world. These plans include the creation of an International Empire. From there, anything he says goes, since he's Emperor.

All of that being said, I don't see Bush as the sole perpetrator of such a grandiose plan, nor do I think he was the mastermind behind it. He doesn't have the forethought to have thought that far ahead, as the Iraq war can attest to. It's just becoming such a major discussion now because the Administration and Congress have appeared to have banded together to make a feudal state. This "plan" is something that I believe has been in motion for the better part of two-hundred years.

We the People that voted these representatives in have no real say while they're in office what they pass into law, and I wish that would change. We the People should be able to have that say on the things which mean so much to our safety and security, since we're the ones being protected. Don't you want a say who can come into your house? I do.

Semper, I don't know if you started this thread knowing I'd reply with my idea or not, but I'm gonna give it a brief go here.

Because of the rampant disagreement that we all share with our government right now, I think that We the People should have the ability to say what does and doesn't get voted into law. If that were the case, there would be no need for these arguments all of the time about how so-and-so screwed everyone out of that tax break that they wanted because he was "lobbied"(bribed) into voting a different way. The only ones to blame would then be ourselves, since we, as a nation, have the final say on anything that gets voted on. We could vote electronically, which would make the voting process immediate. People could vote on anything that was up for a vote on either local voting booths or their own cellphones.

It would facilitate a new understanding of the way the government is truly run, and would yet again raise the layman to the status of the Person that is supposed to uphold that standard that our Forefathers so valiantly died protecting. It would be my dream to see something of this nature reach reality, and yet even now, I find it incredibly difficult to get anyone to understand just how easy this would be to institute. It sounds like a revolutionary system, but all it really does is gives the vote to those that should have it anyway.

As an independant, I bring this idea to all to ponder. Please mull it over, and let me know if you think it has any chance of working. At least with this system, people like Bush & Co./Clinton & Co. wouldn't be able to railroad things over "We the People" without us knowing it.

Remember, above all things, the People rule.

TheBorg

[edit on 4-6-2006 by TheBorg]

hmmmm

The main problem seems to be that people cannot differentiate anymore between supporting a political view and supporting people who represent it. Those are two very different things.

If I am a democrat and democrats are in power, I will be the FIRST to criticize everything they do, check and double check their moves, actions, if they match the democratic political view. They are representing me and they better do it right with all the resources at their disposal. Politicians are just figures, nothing more. They can be replaced. They are not to be worshipped.

Same goes for republicans. YOU are the ones who are supposed to be closely watching every single move Bush makes, not the liberals. If Bush and his administration make a mistake, they betray YOU, not the liberals.

People indentify themselves with politicians and then take everything personaly, every attack on Bush is somehow attack against the republicans.
If you applaud everything republicans do, it does not make you a good republican, it makes you a mindless puppet.

This world has turned into some strange cult of idol worshipping, idols being people who are currently in power. We have all betrayed democracy. Politicians don't even have to make up excuses for their mistakes, we do it for them. Mistakes are made and the next day you get 100 specials on TV explaining you why that mistake is ok. It is sad, really.

Our democratic priviledge, right, our RESPONSIBILITY to keep an eye on those who represent us has been labeled as "slander", "not patriotic".

We learn from history that we learn nothing from history, as someone said. Quite true. The whole human history is a witness of "absolute power corrupts absolutely" no matter who you are and how good your intentions are.
We have finaly invented a system which can control those who can be corrupted by absolute power, a system that can take the power away if the situation gets too hot, yet we fail to use it. We let the corruption take over.

This world is going downhill pretty fast...

Well I think the prevailing left ideology comes from the members who live outside the US. such as in england and elsewhere in europe where this ideology is quite popular. The US it is somewhat frowned upon as typically lefties here tend to be somewhat well to do comparatively. (silver spoon in their mouth, or is that a gold spoon? :lol. Anyway, many conservatives have come from poorer backgrounds and had to get to where they are by their own talents and abilities.

I will admit that there is error to this thinking as it no dount leaves some at a severe disadvantage. for example minorities and others who are

taught at an early age they are at the bottom of the barrell in society and to just accept it.

or

as hard as this might be to believe, have no ablities or talent....in which case the survival of the fittest conservative ideology has some failings and I believe this is what gives the appearance of uncaring for the poor or simply "racists".

(often times conservatives are compared to nazis for the belief of utilizing ones abilities to overcome and dominate others, which is somewhat true they share these ideas, the nazis just took it too far.)

now I dont view anything wrong with moderate left wing ideology.....for example, genrally frowning upon conflict which involves loss of life, caring for the environment(a noble cause) or attempting to aid those at a disadvantage.

what bothers me is radical left wing Ideology, and I do see some of this on ATS.

for example....ridiculus concepts such as no nation should have militaries, calling for assasination of public officials of an opposing ideology, greenpeace terrorism, assaulting soldiers or otherwise hindering or slandering them for their agenda, calling for the destruction of the United States, the list goes on....

now to be fair there are right wing radicals as well, but their posts typically consists of unimaginative "nuke em all, take the oil" type things and are dismissed out of hand.

I do feel moderate conservatives such as myself are often silenced or remain silent to simply avoid the argument all together (I have often just closed my web browser and rolled my eyes) this is the biggest problem......

there use to be a time where your posts were transfered to a quiet corner of ATS or you were threatened with banings for posting unpopular ideas, this is no longer the case...

however, you will be ridiculed and slandered beyond belief..... skippy im sure can attest to this.

thanks.....

semperfortis,

You did a fine job on your op/ed piece. However, I tend to disagree with your assement on the "prevailing winds" on this board. I still think that there are representatives of both groups on this board. By reading the threads, most notably PTS, there are plenty of conservatives which express themselves on many topics.

I think that some topics attract different types of posters regarding a certain political persuasion more than others. It is probably the way that a poster might word the topic of his/her thread. As a result, there are people who lean one way against the other when approaching a topic.

However, I might ask, that what if this board represented one way of thinking? Wouldn't this place be boring? I think it would be. So, it is better to have people with different opinions expressing themselves when talking about the issues.

You just have to think that people are expressing themselves in the way that they feel about certain topics. It is not an attack on character. Instead, it is how they frame a debate. Debating about issues is how it is done on this board. That's what makes ATS what it is.

[edit on 4-6-2006 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by Jamuhn

Are you still having a hissy fit over that fake story you posted on ATSNN? You know, the one claiming Iran was going to start issuing Jew badges.

[edit on 3-6-2006 by Jamuhn]

What the hell are you, a 10 year old kid?.... Grow up...and learn to comprehend what you read... and to anwser directly your rhetorical question, no.... it has nothing to do with that story, which you continue to exagerate and try to claim is all a lie... The truth is that the Iranian government did pass a dress code law which according to the Iranian president is for the "identity of the traditional Islamic culture".... Yet you want to claim it is a lie too...go figure...

Anyways, I didn't say either that all staff members are doing this, but it does seems that at times there are stories which are more liberal and seem to get upgraded real fast, while others which do not fit in with the liberal mindset and these appear to take longer to get upgraded, days or sometimes they don't get upgraded at all.

[edit on 4-6-2006 by Muaddib]

congratulations semperfortis on a well written op/ed. I throughly disagree with you but thats ok...at least you did what some our more vocal conservatives on here seem incapable of and that is to write a defense of yuor political beliefs. Doesn't matter i think your characterizations of us liberals is simplistic, at least you made an attempt....what you should remember though is that the rights demonization of the left and clinton in the 90's is abosultely no different of what you accuse us of now. Clinton lied about a BJ, bush lied about (besides just about every time he opens his mouth) the reasons we were snowballed into this unjust and unnecceary war. Which is worse, I ask you?

Well - I will allow myself to quote me from another thread:

Left? Right? Beer Anyone?

Originally posted by Souljah
I am getting sick and tired of this Lefty-Righty accusations.

PEOPLE OF THIS WORLD!

YOU HAVE BEEN PROGRAMMED AND MANIPULATED FOR CENTURIES!

If you think that Left or Right is the Correct side for you, then you are Wrong as never before. There is NO Left and there is no Right - Surprsingly Both; the Left and the Right Politicians are actually Working on the same Goal; have you Guessed it already?

TO DIVIDE AND RULE THE MASSES!

Antony Sutton on "Left" versus "Right" and the Hegelian dialectic in American politics

Probably the most difficult task in this work will be to get across to the reader what is really an elementary observation: that the objective of The Order is neither "left" nor "right." "Left" and "right" are artificial devicces to bring about change, and the extremes of political left and political right are vital elements in a process of controlled change.

The discussion and the funding is always towards more state power, use of state power and away from individual rights. So it doesn't matter from the viewpoint of The Order whether it is termed left, right, Democratic, Republican, secular or religious - so long as the discussion is kept within the framework of the State and the power of the State.

This manipulation of "left" and "right" on the domestic front is duplicated in the international field where "left" and "right" political structures are artificially constructed and collapsed in the drive for a one-world synthesis.

WE ARE BEING PLAYED LIKE MONKEYS IN A CAGE!

And THEY are Laughing at us, and at our Incompetance to Come Togather As ONE PEOPLE!

If you want to know who THEY are - read some Books.

So when "Somebody" says, that one Scholar is a Left-Wing-Liberal-Ape - he is going EXACTLY where they want him to.

Meditate on that...

Anyway, this OP/ED is a perfect example of the words written above.

See, it really does not matter who sits in the White House, Lefties, Righties - anybody who sits there, actually has to answer to the same "Boss" eventually.

And Left-Right is just a Hoax for the Masses to Divide themselves, in order to be easily controlled and manipulated.

It has been done for centuries - how can it not work?

There are many living proofs of that - just look around...

from TheBorg
Because of the rampant disagreement that we all share with our government right now, I think that We the People should have the ability to say what does and doesn't get voted into law. If that were the case, there would be no need for these arguments all of the time about how so-and-so screwed everyone out of that tax break that they wanted because he was "lobbied"(bribed) into voting a different way. We could vote electronically, which would make the voting process immediate. People could vote on anything that was up for a vote on either local voting booths or their own cellphones.

Government by consensus would never work. The public isn't educated enough to decide isues other than local/state ones' they would succumb to the slickest salesman.

Cell phone voting? Think of the potential for abuse.

Originally posted by paperclip

If I am a democrat and democrats are in power, I will be the FIRST to criticize everything they do, check and double check their moves, actions, if they match the democratic political view. They are representing me and they better do it right with all the resources at their disposal.

There's a difference between being diligent and being up somebody's butt every minute of every day. All this will accomplish is paralysis, and the notion that what you consider the correct way to vote somehow superior to my own opinion.

If Bush and his administration make a mistake, they betray YOU, not the liberals.

People are human and make mistakes. The problem I see is that some attribute every move to be part of a grandiose plan to screw the American people. Some politicians are merely incompetent, not malicious.

Originally posted by XphilesPhan
Well I think the prevailing left ideology comes from the members who live outside the US. such as in england and elsewhere in europe where this ideology is quite popular.

I agree with you to some point on this one. But I wouldn't call it a leftism. It's more like critical distance. We as Europeans are not in constat State of War, State of Emergency or some sort of colorful Elevated Risk Status as are you, so I can understand your position.

I disagree that the civilian deaths, enviromental and carring for disabeled and disadvantaged issue is not moderate left wing ideology. It's a normal human being ideology.

You XphilesPhan as a member of ATS have to ask yourself a question. Why did I join?
I joined to learn, to find the truth and get a greater understanding. And I would like to believe that this site and its members are Above Politics, Above Ideology and ofcourse Above Top Secret.

Originally posted by Muaddib
What the hell are you, a 10 year old kid?.... Grow up...and learn to comprehend what you read...

This comment warrented a warn from me.

ATSNN threads are for the discussion of issues and debate points not attacks at individual members. We always have, and always will try to be more strict about these types of posts within the ATSNN forum.

Please, stick to the issues.

Originally posted by xpert11
Im still trying to work out why this op/ed made it to ATSNN. American politics is nothing more the two groups of delusional people arguing and should be treated as such.

But I believe the delusional divide is a manufactued one, and thus, we have a conspiracy.

Thank you SKEPTIC.

I have been contemplating this for years.

''The desire to BECOME a politician should ban a potential canditate from EVER being one''..the wise words of Billy Connolly

I seriously think there is no such thing as opposing political parties and the whole point is this..

ELECTION TIME...

PARTY ''A'' we propose

a,higher taxes
b,a cap on salary increases,
c,lower budget for military spending...

PARTY ''B''

a,higher taxes
b,increased salary for all
c,INCREASE budget for military spending..for ''anti terrorism and your enhanced security''

See what i,m getting at..two opposing parties in cahoots to pass an agenda to give more money to ''security measures''

Give the people no good choice and they will take the more apparently self beneficial decision

''I,m not paying more tax with no salary increase..What about the new ''Ultimate Behemoth' ATV i was gonna buy myself this year.. doo doo to that''

Therefore votes PARTY 'B' ..buys his new earth consuming extension of his manliness. and tries to forget about the rest.He is happy.....ish

The ''opposing'' parties get together afterwards, have a good old shindig,on taxpayers money,and have a good old laugh about how they just got you to vote for paying them extra to keep you under control..

Do you really think they give a fig about,higher funds for education,emergency services,social security..it,s just an emotional distraction technique to divert your attention away from you buying gold plated hammers and toilet seats for them

In the immortal words again from Mr connolly

''Dont, vote for anyone. it just encourages them''

You have voted paperclip for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

thank god some one else said it in this thread besides me. Just because your that view, does not mean you have to follow the people representing it. Like I said before, I no longer associate a "bush supporter" and a "republican" as the same anymore. Because they arent and at heart bush isn't really a republican. Republicans are conservative views, and conservative views means trying to keep in touch with the old, less change. Since when in our history(before alot of this changing) did we have hugest government centralized military in the world as one of our views? As I recall the militias were suppose to be the main power behind our nation, not the government armies. The only thing government armies allow use to do is take action in another nation rather then truely defending our home. That was the point.

Our original intent wasn't to invade foreign continents, it was to defend freedom on our OWN SOIL, if needed be. Its A SHAME that people believe they have to go conquer the planet because they want to be safe. I got news for you people who believe that, you never will be "safe". Deal with it and live like a true conservative, a person who isnt afraid to die because he lived free.

Originally posted by jsobecky
Government by consensus would never work. The public isn't educated enough to decide isues other than local/state ones' they would succumb to the slickest salesman.

well, I wonder why that is. maybe if we stopped cutting education and such then we would be able to better educate the public huh? anyway what party stands for less budget for education. Theres a pattern.

Cell phone voting? Think of the potential for abuse.

completely agreed, theres no way that would work. I have a system I think would work great, but for now I will just keep it to myself.

There's a difference between being diligent and being up somebody's butt every minute of every day. All this will accomplish is paralysis, and the notion that what you consider the correct way to vote somehow superior to my own opinion.

to an extent yes, too much will just end up in a stand still because everyone has different beliefs so you cant please everyone all the time. You can please everyone some of the time though. There should be more pros then cons when you look at your representative. If you find more things wrong then things you like, well then you have a problem.

People are human and make mistakes. The problem I see is that some attribute every move to be part of a grandiose plan to screw the American people. Some politicians are merely incompetent, not malicious.

i agree everyone makes mistakes, and some slack should be cut. Unfortunately, bush has made way too many mistakes, and there is a different. JFK made a mistake with bay of pigs, bush made many mistakes consistantly one after another. JFK retreated out and took responsiblity for the wrong. Bush, well as you can see...hasnt. Theres different types of mistakes, and yes once in awhile fine. You cant forgive some one of a mistake when they refuse to even admit they have made one though. (saying you made a mistake years later and 2500 death later does not fall under the category "better late then never right?")