Mike Pecoraro's testimony, proof bombs in WTC basement

Originally posted by GoldenBuddha
I was aware of the basement bomb (my thought laser technology) within the year of it happening, its not news to me but i i always say it as a feasible reason as to why the buildings collapsed. by weakening the structure of the foundation combined with explosive devices set on strtegic floors

Exactly, confirmed by an expert:

CENTRAL COLUMNS SEVERED

Videos of the North Tower collapse show its communication mast falling first, indicating that the central support columns must have failed at the very beginning of the collapse. Loizeaux told AFP, "Everything went simultaneously."

Loizeaux said, "If I were to bring the towers down, I would put explosives in the basement to get the weight of the building to help collapse the structure."

www.americanfreepress.net..." target="_blank" class="postlink">Original Article

Originally posted by diggs

Originally posted by HowardRoarkYou never did answer my question. How much do you think a 50-ton hyrdaulic press weighs?

Probably 100's of lbs. What's your point? Presses are made out of solid steel. How did your "FAE bomb" disintegrate it?

“disintegrate?” Where does it say it was disintegrated? He didn’t see it. That doesn’t mean that it was disintegrated. Those things are top heavy; it wouldn’t be that hard to knock it over.

The parking garage was not "gone" they later excavated it and the cars in it.

"There were no walls, there was rubble on the floor, and you can't see anything" he said.

So the walls were knocked down by the force of the explosion. So what.

Yes, FAE can produce that kind of overpressure, especially in a confined elevator shaft.

Can you prove with photos of what a FAE can do? If not, then your THEORY is overpressured.

Grain Silo Explosion

BLVE

FAE and BLVE

There is also a short video of a FAE on the FAE-site.

why wasn't there any remaining jet fuel still on fire in the lobbies?

Because it was a fuel vapor explosion.

So vapor fell down the shafts, not liquid?

The expanding cloud of burning fuel consisted of vapor and air, yes. Liquid fuel does not burn, only the vapor does.

Originally posted by HowardRoark
Given the speed and momentum of the aircraft impact this would have happened when? on the outside of the building? or on the inside? We are talking about hte first impact here.

Nice contradiction. You speak of speed and momentum of the airframe, which would INCREASE the aeration of the fuel NOT decrease it and allow it to flow as liquid. Take a water balloon and throw it as hard as you can at a screen door and you'll have a rudimentary model of the impact of the jet hitting the WTC.

If any had the opportunity to find its way into the elevator shafts it would have burned immediately, not some how managed to snake its way 500-600 feet down a snake of elevator shafts before exploding. That just makes no sense at all.

Like I said, the freight elevator shaft ran the whole distance.

Big whoop. The freight elevator car would have acted like a big cork in the neck of a bottle and not allowed the "cascade of liquid to flood the building" like you suggest.

Also, I don't beleive that all of the fuel instantly areated. It may have been dispersed into sheets and clouds of liquid droplets, but liquid jet fuel does not burn.

Liquid jet fuel doesn't burn? Then why, in your little world, would the liquid jet fuel snake its way through the building and THEN explode? I though liquid jet fuel doesnt burn?

I love it when people get run over by their own flawed logic.

Originally posted by HowardRoark

So Howard if your theory is right, how did your FAE manage to shoot down the shafts and explode BEFORE the plane crashed?:

This past week I had the great pleasure of meeting William Rodriquez, a humble man from Puerto Rico who worked at the World Trade Center.

Arriving at 8:30 on the morning of 9-11 he went to the maintenance office located on the first sublevel, one of six sub-basements beneath ground level... As he was talking with others, there was a very loud massive explosion which seemed to emanate from between sub-basement B2 and B3. There were twenty-two people on B2 sub-basement who also felt and heard that first explosion.

Just seconds later there was another explosion way above which made the building oscillate momentarily. This, he was later told, was a plane hitting the 90th floor. Upon hearing about the plane, he immediately thought of the people up in the restaurant. Then there were other explosions just above B1 and individuals started heading for the loading dock to escape the explosion's resulting rampant fire. When asked later about those first explosions he said: "I would know if an explosion was from the bottom or the top of the building." He heard explosions both before and after the plane hit the tower.

www.theconservativevoice.com...

Let me guess, Mr. Rodriguez was "mistaken"?!

Originally posted by HowardRoark“disintegrate?” Where does it say it was disintegrated? He didn’t see it. That doesn’t mean that it was disintegrated. Those things are top heavy; it wouldn’t be that hard to knock it over.

Now why would I say disintegrated?:

When the two arrived at the C level, they found the machine shop gone.

"There was nothing there but rubble, "Mike said. "We're talking about a 50 ton hydraulic press ? gone!"

But let me guess, rubble "buried it" so he couldn't see it?!

So the walls were knocked down by the force of the explosion. So what.

Planted bombs can knock down walls. I doubt your psuedo FAE could do that, ALL that.

Can you prove with photos of what a FAE can do? If not, then your THEORY is overpressured.

Grain Silo Explosion

A grain silo? Hardly a sturdy object compared to what was damaged in the basement/lobby.

The expanding cloud of burning fuel consisted of vapor and air, yes. Liquid fuel does not burn, only the vapor does.

So that big fireball outside the WTC 2 was just from vapor?

Originally posted by HowardRoark

Almost all organic material in the form of a dust cloud will ignite at temperatures below 500 oC - approximately the same temperature as a newly extinguished match.

That's the ignition temperature, not the temperature of the fireball.

Give me a more accurate temperature then. Anything below 825 C, preferably, because otherwise you'd be suggesting the impossible. Hydrocarbons, no pre-heated air.

Originally posted by bsbray11

A wide spectrum of flame speeds may result from flame acceleration under various conditions. High flame front speeds and resulting high blast over pressures are seen in accidental vapor cloud explosions where there is a significant amount of confinement and congestion that limits flame front expansion and increases flame turbulence.

I'd say an elevator shaft is pretty confining, wouldn't you?

You were sufficiently debunked on this in the two posts that immediately followed this.

Originally posted by The Iconoclast

Originally posted by HowardRoark
Like I said, the freight elevator shaft ran the whole distance.

Big whoop. The freight elevator car would have acted like a big cork in the neck of a bottle and not allowed the "cascade of liquid to flood the building" like you suggest.

Are you forgetting both Mike Pecoraro's and William Rodriguez's accounts that the freight elevator car was in the basement?

Originally posted by diggs

Originally posted by GoldenBuddha
I was aware of the basement bomb (my thought laser technology) within the year of it happening, its not news to me but i i always say it as a feasible reason as to why the buildings collapsed. by weakening the structure of the foundation combined with explosive devices set on strtegic floors

Exactly, confirmed by an expert:

CENTRAL COLUMNS SEVERED

Videos of the North Tower collapse show its communication mast falling first, indicating that the central support columns must have failed at the very beginning of the collapse. Loizeaux told AFP, "Everything went simultaneously."

Loizeaux said, "If I were to bring the towers down, I would put explosives in the basement to get the weight of the building to help collapse the structure."

www.americanfreepress.net..." target="_blank" class="postlink">Original Article

Then why did the both the collapses start in the impact zones?

Originally posted by The Iconoclast

Originally posted by HowardRoark
Also, I don't beleive that all of the fuel instantly areated. It may have been dispersed into sheets and clouds of liquid droplets, but liquid jet fuel does not burn.

Liquid jet fuel doesn't burn? Then why, in your little world, would the liquid jet fuel snake its way through the building and THEN explode? I though liquid jet fuel doesnt burn?

I love it when people get run over by their own flawed logic.

What are you talking about?

I see no problem with a mass of liquid fuel reaching the elevator shaft, and vaporizing into an expanding fire ball that shot down the shaft with destructive shock wave.

Originally posted by HowardRoark
Then why did the both the collapses start in the impact zones?

You're not too quick, are you Howard?

To start, do you know what psychology is?

Originally posted by HowardRoark

Originally posted by Valhall

The fuel pouring down the shaft is the very reason there most likely was no FAE - the fuel/air ratio was not right.

Why? do you think it was too rich or too lean?

I don't think that the ratio would have been even and consistent thoughout the shaft.

Too rich...apparently. You can't have a fuel/air explosion at the same time you have burning and flowing fuel. Especially in a non-confined area.

I'm not seeing anything about this that would allow a FAE on the lobby to basement levels.

Originally posted by Valhall
I'm not seeing anything about this that would allow a FAE on the lobby to basement levels.

Wishful thinking perhaps?

So what caused the kerosene smell in the basement?

The odor of kerosene does not an FAE make....else we'd all blow-up when the fuel belched on us during gas-up at the pump...right?

Originally posted by Valhall
The odor of kerosene does not an FAE make....else we'd all blow-up when the fuel belched on us during gas-up at the pump...right?

only if you are one of those who fuel up with a lit cigarette in your hand.

Originally posted by HowardRoark

Originally posted by diggs

CENTRAL COLUMNS SEVERED

Videos of the North Tower collapse show its communication mast falling first, indicating that the central support columns must have failed at the very beginning of the collapse. Loizeaux told AFP, "Everything went simultaneously."

Loizeaux said, "If I were to bring the towers down, I would put explosives in the basement to get the weight of the building to help collapse the structure."

www.americanfreepress.net..." target="_blank" class="postlink">Original Article

Then why did the both the collapses start in the impact zones?

"to get the weight of the building to help collapse the structure"

Notice the word "help".

Originally posted by HowardRoark
So what caused the kerosene smell in the basement?

"We smelled kerosene," Mike recalled, "I was thinking maybe a car fire was upstairs", referring to the parking garage located below grade in the tower but above the deep space where they were working.

From one of the blasted cars above them?

Originally posted by HowardRoark
So what caused the kerosene smell in the basement?

Originally posted by Valhall
The odor of kerosene does not an FAE make....else we'd all blow-up when the fuel belched on us during gas-up at the pump...right?

And wasn't the point that the fuel was liquid as some ran down the elevators? That would provide a smell, wouldn't it? But it was obviously not an FAE that poured down onto those people on floors higher up.

You like to jump to unsupported conclusions awfully fast, Howard.

Right, my point was that you can't have a cascading rivulet of burning fuel AND an FAE at the same time. You also can't blow an FAE past an elevator, have it explode 700 feet down, blow 20 foot sections of marble of the structure at that lower level, and then have the elevator and its occupants continue down with burning fuel pouring on their heads.

If there had been an FAE that could cause the reported lobby destruction in ONE SINGLE ELEVATOR SHAFT we would have had a report in the radio communications of an elevator embedded in the bottom of the shaft. The elevator would have been a virtual piston and there's no way (in this chick's mind) an FAE that energetic would not have slammed it all the way to the bottom of the shaft.

There were no reports of this happening. There were reports of damage to elevators and elevators being stuck on mid-level floors and then as time went on about elevators they were afraid were about to fall, but not one single report of an elevator ending up at the bottom of the shaft (not unless I've missed it...in which case gratitude will abound at the sharing of this information).

Sort of off topic (sorry) but elevator cars have a fail safe, a cable runs from the top of the sling up to the penthouse and around a gin wheel and down to the pit then back up to the underside of the sling (what the car rides on). This gin wheel has 3 doglegs that will swing out and lock against 3 stop bars when the RPMs become to great. The other end of the cable is attached to the rail guides below the sling, they have a retractable sets of teeth that grip the rail, so when the car speed is to great the doglegs kick in the cable stops, the teeth engage and bring the car to a stop. Not to mention forcing the car down means your pulling the counter weights up.




[edit on 3/6/2006 by Sauron]