Losing rights in America

Here's a poem that I learned in school - gosh, one or two things were useful in the long run - that was written by a pastor who lived in Nazi Germany. All of you who think that as long as you personally are not affected, everything's hunky dory should read it and ponder:

First They Came for the Jews

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.

Pastor Martin Niemöller

You can substitute various terms to make the fit clearer, if you like, but I think that this is a poem that will come into its own again in the next few years.

great post rich23.

I know its hard to drill into the heads of people that once they come for you persoanlly it is too late. and for many that will be exactly what happens.

It was nice hearing from the right.

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[edit on 29-5-2006 by DontTreadOnMe]

Originally posted by steve99
It was nice hearing from the right.

Which in my opinion is one of the biggest problems. It's nice hearing from the right, it's nice hearing from the left. What about coming to agreements. Now I have seen the left in this thread admit that Clinton was a globalist, and that the stuff going on in Congress to defend Jefferson is wrong.

I have yet to hear anything from the right, admitting their mistakes. Admitting what their guys do wrong. Nothing.

Its not even about right or left, jeez, look at how we fight over this. We don't even get to the bone of the issue if we keep fighting over this. Clinton lied under oath, he therefore paid the consequences that he paid. Maybe we should stick Bush under oath (besides the one that he took to "uphold the Constitution") and see how easily we can catch this man in a lie. Of course, when he lies to the public, its all about "national security reasons." We have taps on phones, we have old ladies being dragged out of their wheel chairs to get frisked at an airport, we have a kid suspended for giving another kid a piece of gum, and we had military pushing me around in New Orleans after the storm, acting as if they were police officers.

I think when a military humvee comes up, and four guys jump out at me, yelling at me and frisking me because I was out at night (before curfew, at that, in a unharmed neighborhood that I live in), that I can honestly say that I have lost a liberty. I can honestly say that I did feel as though it was a violation. It happened to many of us here. Something about sitting in a cafe and a military dude coming up to me with what I assume was an AK-47 in my face asking me if I lived in the area (this was in the French Quarter for crying out loud) was another instance.

Wake up people, it was designed not to be noticed by everyone, but then again, those that are more worried about the reputation of their political party make it easy to see how the stealing of liberties could come about.

Steve...so you know IM NOT A DEM....Im an Independant...so....Dont just assume that because my views are counter to yours that I am nessecarily on the Left....I am actually quite fiscally conservative....I dont believe in Open Borders per say....so I feel that many of Far Left Ideas are balanced by some of my more right ideals. That being said.....

Congressman above the Law:

1)Tom Delay

2) Duke Cunnighman---Yes hes going to jail now...BUT....how much less time is getting than the Average AMerican would get if we commited the same crime.

3) Scooter Libby - - Purjury trials of Normal Americans....NEVER take this long.

4) Karl Rove---Nuff Said.

On to the Reelection rates of Congress....Ur right I did exaggerate a lil...By about 1-2% depending on the Year....you don't believe me...Go to Senate.gov....or the House of reps site....The numbers are there dude....the numbers are there...and its not just the Right...its the Left too...Clinton(Hilary) is a back stabbing flip flopping Poltician who will say whatever she needs to say to get elected....

DUI stops still have to have PROBABLE(not like the New CIA Director thinks Reasonable) suspicion to pull you out of your car....yes you can have DUI checkpoints...where people are expected to pull over...but they arent given breathalizers or Sobriety tests UNLESS the officers there can show a PROBABLE cause of them being intoxicated. Random searches ARE a violation of our Fourth Amendment rights...it doesnt matter if they have been going on for Fifty years..that just means that we have been APATHETIC for the past 50years.

Rich GREAT POEM...ive seen that before...its almost a mantra at times...because so many american feel like steve....if they aren't comming for me its okay....well...we the people who are getting ridiculed because we dont believe our Government...we are the people who if and when all our rights are taken...we are going to be the ones who remind you that we tried to warn...and everyone told us.....no no....they wont ever come for me...I am no terrorist....well how long before owning a gun makes you a terrorist...or having an Internet connection that is not government monitiered makes you a terrorist....or when believing in a God other than, to quote Steven Colbert, "The one and only true god the Father", makes you a terrorist...what then....where does it stop....who determines whose a threat and whose not....What is National Security....we KNEW prior to Pearl Harbor and yet we still got attacked....and we knew b4 9-11 we were going to get attacked and yet we were still attacked...Clinton is not at fault...it happened nearly a full year into GW's term...so no exucses there...HE dropped the ball...While GW's administration and thier policies arent the only ones whose policies were flawed in not only the Middle East but globally... they were the ones at the helm and they didnt avoid the catastrophe.

This is an issue that if not dealt with in the here and now will come back to bite all of us in the proverbial buttocks.

[edit on 28-5-2006 by Elsenorpompom]

Well said, niteboy and senor.

The left/right thing is a bunch of crap. Anyone notice how Clinton and Bush's daddy are now booty buddies...oh, wait, Bush Sr. has been grooming Bill for a while now. And, when will you right wingers admit that your people have screwed up?

BTW, I'm neither left nor right...

Originally posted by Elsenorpompom
Okay....I will not argue with you. YOu have your poiint of view I have mine.

However heres a quote I think you should meditate on.

"Those who sacrafice freedom for security deserve neither freedom nor security" B. Franklin.

Awsome brother well put. Not only do I share your point of view but mostly everyone I know does. Bush is a hated man here in Michigan.

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[edit on 29-5-2006 by DontTreadOnMe]

rich23 is the winner. My view is why should innocent Americans pay with our freedoms? It seems alot like throwing dynamite in a lake to catch a few fish. Is this the kind of government you want steve99?
If so, then I guess the rest of us will have to fight for you.

actually as much as I hate these right wing views (for the most part) steve is right...in a sense. Its not president bushes fault (though he is such a bad president). The country died when capitalism took control of the government. Thats when democracy died. So in a sense bush never killed it, or intruded on it, because its already gone. You know what the biggest factor of a fascist government is? That its controlled by business.

I want to ask steve a question though, whos a terrorist? I hope you think before you answer this, because answer it wrong, and im going to tear it apart with examples of abuses. Ill give you a hint (its a trick question)

Steve, you said that if losing your freedoms saves lives then do it. I would like to ask you why you would say that? Because it really disturbs me that people can have such a view in america.

To another poster about the second amendment. You think they are at all afraid of your automatic weapon? The amount of power they have in the military (with the budget and all) they would make swiss cheese out of anybody if they wanted to. Maybe you might take one out in a rush, but believe me, they could roll over us with the technology they have. But dont worry, thats not going to happen.

They are not ever going to come in and actually take any of your rights away. Your going to give them up willingly. Further more, why take away the guns from people you can manipulate and use? When it comes down to it, they dont care what you do, as long as you work as much as possible. The quicker you do that, the happier they are. This is all business run, including your government. So tell me, would you trust some one (actually something) that has no moral basis, and doesnt have your interests in mind? Businesses dont at all, they are in it for them. They WILL do whatever they can for a profit, your life is expendable.

War on Terror, cannot be won. That might disappoint you, but it can never be won. Even what the war on terror has consisted of hasnt been a war on terror. its been a war on iraq and a war on afganistan. How do you plan to catch the timothy mcvay's out there? white, middleclass, ex veteran...blows up a building. A terrorist. How do you plan on catching them? Terrorism has no skin colour, no race or religion, no boarders. Who are they?

I have one more question steve. you have watched countless people die in the revolutionary war, countless people die during the civil war, countless african americans die to achive equal rights. Now why do you think they gave their life? They could have just as easy stood back and been safe. They could have actually been more safe under the britian rule then independent. On this memorial day think about the founder of this nation and what they died for. Did they die for self defense? No they died for the rights we are given. Safety means nothing if you dont have a life to live, because life is being free.

we are loing rights all the time and i am sorry if you can't see it.in most major cities you can no longer own a handgun.you can't say what you feel because god forbid you might offend somebody. i am 35 years old and have never been in military service but he is right a militsry triaal isn't a real trial it is for giving out sentences and punishment.and anybody who watches court tv can tell you we don't have equal rights under the law a friend of mine exwife had her 16 year old daughter tell the law my friend sexually molested her on specific dates on those dates he was over 1000 miles away on other side of country from her he had no money and a court appointed attorney. he got 47 years in prison the girl has recanted her story now that she is 20 but to no avail my friend is in his 50s and in poor health he is going to die in prison . micheal jackson molested multiple children for years and he walks every time shielded by high dollar attorneys and non disclosure contracts he makes his employeees sign.

As this thread has gotten rather political with Bush-Clinton-left-right-neocon-liberal, it belongs in PTS.

Moving to US Politics.

Thumbs Up to All who stay Civil
I am so terribly conserned for my country and I salute those "you", who are able to discern between right and left, middle, upside down.
I just left a nice neighborhood "cook-out" . The main subject was
Our Restricted Freedom, not the weather or fishing, but why we are so restricted.
I am so sad. It's not Bush or Clinton(well perhaps both) it's the apathy of the people.
I wish I had time to find links, post long elaborate posts and had spellcheck.
WIS

[edit]Just viewed my post. and I have NO clue to why it is all in bold, Sorry Mods.
mod edit: you left out a "b" when you closed the code
[edit on 29-5-2006 by WalkInSilence]

[edit on 29-5-2006 by DontTreadOnMe]

walkinsilence its great that your talking about that. The more you talk about it, the more aware people become. The more people that become aware, the more difference it will make. I suggest reaching out to the youth though. If you have children I suggest talking to them about politics, like you would drugs or unprotected sex. A mature manner, just debate with them. Dont come off all mighty, just hear them out. Try to get them aware because right now a majority dont care and have no opinion. Its probably because nobody talks to them about it.

If your a parent it just as important to talk to them about politics as it is as drugs and unprotected sex. Think of it this way, an uneducated child is just as dangerous and a threat to themselves as drugs and unprotected sex are. Its just as much as a threat and danger to be uneducated. Reach out to them, but treat them as an equal adult. its important.

Originally posted by Elsenorpompom
Rights that I believe have been removed:
...(cut)

4)Fourth Amendment- Ureasonable Search and Seizures. NY Subways...12 year old girl arrested for eating fries on subway. Random searches by NYC police. Frisking and intensive searching at ALL AIRPORTS(Iunderstand why but its still unreasonable)

...(snip)

These are just a few of the rights that I feel this government has either violated or taken away.

elsenorpompom, this didn't happen in NY, it happend in DC, and the incident was waay before 9/11:

www.washingtonpost.com...

i live in dc, and the reason for this incident had nothing to do with terrorism/war on terror/ national security/ bush/ lost rights/ etc. it was because metro officials kept having to repeatedly tell riders to stop eating in the subway system, as it was attracting rats, roaches, and other vermin, and creating a hazard on the tracks, as the trash was beginning to start small fires inside the tunnels. plus it was putting a strain on metro employees whose job it was to clean out the train cars during the after hours. the situation was especially bad at the tenleytown station, so metro officals told the wmata officers to "strictly enforce" the no eating rule there. many people, including metro officals, thought the officers overreacted, and the charges were dropped with the girl was released to her mother with a warning not to eat on the metro.
---------------------
look, i'm as less a fan of this current state of America as anybody, but i don't think blaming bush for everything, even things that happened before his presidency is gonna help solve anything. and if you think you have it bad in your state, try living where i am. at the very least you guys can pobably thank your stars that you're not one of the number one cities on the nuke list, if you know what i mean

Oh grow up all of you. No one took your rights, YOU GAVE THEM AWAY, and you still giving them away.

Accept your personal responsibility and chnage your own government. You can do that you know ? Maybe not since only 40 - 49 % of the Country evens votes.

If you want to retain your liberties and get them back you must change the Congress, change the Courts and chnage the executive branch.

Until you all get the picture of NO professional politicians, term limits, line item vetos, anti-lobbying, limited campaign funding and removal of all your own purient interests in a candiates sex life you will never elect good and decent men and women to anything important in your own government.

WE THE PEOPLE is gone becuase you all let it go. It is now I THE PERSON.

When you all take the 30 minutes to READ the US Constitution, The Bill Of Rights and the Declaration of Independence, ( along with some great works such as the Gettysburg Address ) you live in a fantasy. Read, understand and act. Don;t sit and talk and espouse retoric of the un-informed.

"The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, but in ourselves."

Originally posted by Elsenorpompom
Rights that I believe have been removed:

1) Privacy....The American People can no longer REASONABLY expect thier privacy rights to be violated. THis does not mean they are being violated it means that more and more people are afraid to voice dissenting ideas.

The constitution makes no guarantees for privacy. And, you are mixing the 4th and 1st amendments here, so I really don't understand your point.

2) As evidenced by the Current Scandal....Congressman and Senators are above the law...thus making us not equal...Violation of Equal Protection Clause of the 14th amendment...."And all persons, regardless of Race, Nationality, Sexuality, or Creed will be considered "Equal" under the law". If need be I can further explain this. And most funny of all....How many of us here could SHOOT A MAN IN THE FACE....HIDE from the police for 36 hours....and not go to jail....Seems like a 14th amendment Violation there.

You must be speaking of the William Jefferson scandal. Those who are defending him, including members of Congress, are going to lose that battle, big time. So, once again, no loss of liberties.

3) Taxation without representation: There are NO AVERAGE AMERICANS in Congress....the Congres(Both houses) have an aggragate average of 99% for reelection. We have no control over our own Government.

Yes you do...the ballot box. It may be slow and difficult, but don't blame anyone else except for the voters for accepting things the way they are.

4)Fourth Amendment- Ureasonable Search and Seizures. NY Subways...12 year old girl arrested for eating fries on subway. Random searches by NYC police. Frisking and intensive searching at ALL AIRPORTS(Iunderstand why but its still unreasonable)

This has already been explained by another member.

5) Posse Comatus Act----We can no longer reasonably expect to be given a FAIR and expediant trial. Especially if we are deemed, "terrorists".

What does posse comitatus - which substantially limit the powers of the Federal government to use the military for law enforcement - have to do with a fair and speedy trial?

6) Freedom of Speech...Freedom of Speech zones has used by the Republican Party and the President during the last two elections. Not sure of the exact date...but it was here on ATS....a woman was removed from a presidential confrence(Cindy Sheehan I believe) for wearing a shirt that said how many soldiers had died in Iraq.

It was not a "presidential confrence", it was the State of The Union Address. And, fyi, a congressman's wife was also removed from the same event for wearing a T-shirt supporting the troops.

These are just a few of the rights that I feel this government has either violated or taken away.

I'm still searching your post for those lost liberties...

Originally posted by jsobecky
The constitution makes no guarantees for privacy.

Yes, it does. The Fourth and Fifth Amendments have been interpreted by the Supreme Court as implying a right to privacy. That was the basis of the Roe v. Wade decision, among others. In any case, wiretaps placed on U.S. citizens without court approval are clear violations of the Fourth Amendment, no "penumbra" legal reasoning required.

In general, I have a couple of things to say here.

First of all, regarding this "left-right" business. We are being mesmerized by this nonsense. I don't know if that's deliberate on anyone's part, but it's certainly happening. And the real evidence of it is that some of you mention "left" and "Clinton" as if they were synonymous. Clinton a leftist?!!

The Republicans and Democrats in today's American politics are both conservative, just in different ways. The main constituency both of them represent is big business. Each also represents a secondary constituency. The Republicans represent the religious right, while the Democrats represent racial minorities and cultural progressives. On election day, they debate around the points dear to their secondary constituencies, and so the illusion of a real political difference is created. But nobody touches the issues pertaining to their shared main constituents, and those are the issues that really define "left" and "right."

There are no leftists in the two major American parties, except maybe a lone Democratic Congresscritter here and there (Dennis Kucinich comes to mind). You want to know what real leftist ideas are (and I think some of you Bush supporters are totally clueless about that), ask me. Bill Clinton is no leftist, but I am.

Now, about loss of liberties. That is normal during wartime, of course. In wartime we get censorship of the mail, rationing, even conscription. We put up with that temporarily, knowing that it's necessary to meet the emergency, and that after the war is over things will relax and go back to normal.

But that's real war against real, concrete enemies. In World War II, we knew who we were fighting: Germany and Japan. The war would be over when those two nations surrendered. And it was. A real war is like that.

The "war on terror," though, isn't a real war. It's a metaphorical war, like the "war on poverty" or the "war on drugs." We have no concrete enemy that we can call upon to surrender or negotiate a peace. We are fighting, supposedly, a military tactic, one that has always been used by the weak to fight the strong. You can defeat a nation. How do you defeat a tactic?

Because the enemy is so ill-defined, this is a war that can never be won. And it is also a war that can never be lost. It is a war that will go on forever. And so the loss of our liberties, which is acceptable as a temporary measure to meet an emergency, is in fact permanent.

I am reminded of the permanent war waged by the super-states Oceania, Eurasia, and Eastasia in Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-Four, whose purpose was to make people accept ongoing despotism. This, while not as extreme (yet?), looks very much the same.

Originally posted by Two Steps Forward

Originally posted by jsobecky
The constitution makes no guarantees for privacy.

Yes, it does. The Fourth and Fifth Amendments have been interpreted by the Supreme Court as implying a right to privacy. That was the basis of the Roe v. Wade decision, among others. In any case, wiretaps placed on U.S. citizens without court approval are clear violations of the Fourth Amendment,

Absolutely wrong. It has been debated and litigated countless times, and there is no guarantee of privacy written or implied in the Constitution.

On election day, they debate around the points dear to their secondary constituencies, and so the illusion of a real political difference is created. But nobody touches the issues pertaining to their shared main constituents, and those are the issues that really define "left" and "right."

How very true.

Because the enemy is so ill-defined, this is a war that can never be won. And it is also a war that can never be lost. It is a war that will go on forever. And so the loss of our liberties, which is acceptable as a temporary measure to meet an emergency, is in fact permanent.

Our lives have been changed forever. But any loss of liberties have been very minimal. And I do not subscribe to the theory that it is a grand design to subjugate all of us. It just doesn't make any sense.

Originally posted by Elsenorpompom
So...Support Bush....Believe in National Security....OOOOO and remmember.....Clinton got a BJ and almost got impeached....thats what the Right wing is about.....George Lied and sent us to war illegally wiretapped....illegally spent TAXPAYER dollars....and has been criminally Negligent in ensuring that the United States of America is safe.

Elsenor
You also forgot to add Signing laws that have not been passed. That in itself is a crime.

Yeah Clinton lied to the Grand Jury about a personal matter, and he may have been involved in some other personal problems, but he didn't dupe the american public on a daily basis and didn't drive our economy into the ground.

Originally posted by spartanx15
No one took your rights, YOU GAVE THEM AWAY, and you still giving them away.

Well said. People complain and lobby to get 'protection'. They hold anti-gun rallies. They want to be babysat by the government. The government complies with some of the requests, then people get made because they got the very thing they wanted, but didn't realize what they were asking for. People don't seem to realize that when something happens with the government, it sets a precident for similar situations having the same result. Therefore, we the people are giving up our freedoms because we're asking for them to be taken away.