Losing rights in America

S o during this war on terror that America has been thrust into, I read alot of you saying that Bush is taking away your rights. Which rights is he taking away?

How come it is always Bush supporters like you who, when you see threads you don't like and cannot contend with, merely follow by asking human beings what kind of drugs they're taking?

When you added that Nazi remark on my post I didn't have to guess that you were a Bush supporter. I am in the process of reporting that.

Anyway, Bush claims that we must give up our liberties for security. Another word for "liberties" is rights. That includes rights to privacy, which is the first step toward compromising the Constitution that can only always lead backward to principles of history.

Including being self-appointed psychiatrists and pharmacists when one can't defend his beliefs.

Rights that I believe have been removed:

1) Privacy....The American People can no longer REASONABLY expect thier privacy rights to be violated. THis does not mean they are being violated it means that more and more people are afraid to voice dissenting ideas.

2) As evidenced by the Current Scandal....Congressman and Senators are above the law...thus making us not equal...Violation of Equal Protection Clause of the 14th amendment...."And all persons, regardless of Race, Nationality, Sexuality, or Creed will be considered "Equal" under the law". If need be I can further explain this. And most funny of all....How many of us here could SHOOT A MAN IN THE FACE....HIDE from the police for 36 hours....and not go to jail....Seems like a 14th amendment Violation there.

3) Taxation without representation: There are NO AVERAGE AMERICANS in Congress....the Congres(Both houses) have an aggragate average of 99% for reelection. We have no control over our own Government.

4)Fourth Amendment- Ureasonable Search and Seizures. NY Subways...12 year old girl arrested for eating fries on subway. Random searches by NYC police. Frisking and intensive searching at ALL AIRPORTS(Iunderstand why but its still unreasonable)

5) Posse Comatus Act----We can no longer reasonably expect to be given a FAIR and expediant trial. Especially if we are deemed, "terrorists".

6) Freedom of Speech...Freedom of Speech zones has used by the Republican Party and the President during the last two elections. Not sure of the exact date...but it was here on ATS....a woman was removed from a presidential confrence(Cindy Sheehan I believe) for wearing a shirt that said how many soldiers had died in Iraq. Next, The Former CIA Anylst who has been all over the major networks because of his remarks made at Donny Rumsfeld during a press confrence....For any of you who saw it on CSPAn....as the man is making his comments the camera shows Rummy saying "No, No, let him speak" This was said as Security was grabbing him as they had grabbed another woman.

These are just a few of the rights that I feel this government has either violated or taken away.

First off Bush didn't take away any rights, it was tha arabs that flew those planes that did.

1-If my privacy will be violated to save lives,then do it. That hasen't affected anyones life that I know. And the people I speek to feel the same. As do the majority of Americans.

2-There have always been scandel in goverment. Look at your freind Clinton he had more scandels than any in recent history. Including lying under oath to a grand jury.

3-There hasen't been average Americans in congress for 100 years.


4-I live in NYC and never saw those stories. I read all the major papers everyday.
Show me the articles.

5-If you are deemed a terrorist you should get a military trial.

6- We all still have our freedom of speech.But sometimes there is a place and a time to do it.

You will have to do a lot better than that to convince people they have lost their freedoms.


[edit on 27-5-2006 by steve99]
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[edit on 29-5-2006 by DontTreadOnMe]

Originally posted by tmac100
When you added that Nazi remark on my post I didn't have to guess that you were a Bush supporter. I am in the process of reporting that.

First off it wasn't a nazi remark.I take offense to being called a nazi. And I should report you to the moderators. Second I was just using my freedom of free speech, that you are trying to take from me.
If it means saving lives by listening in on phone conversations then so be it.

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[edit on 29-5-2006 by DontTreadOnMe]

Okay....I will not argue with you. YOu have your poiint of view I have mine.

However heres a quote I think you should meditate on.

"Those who sacrafice freedom for security deserve neither freedom nor security" B. Franklin.

Also...Arabs flying planes in buildings.....Im sorry that you believe the Offical Party line, however....thats not my problem. You can believe what you will believe and I can not force.

Also, the mentality that im not doing anything wrong so its okay to listen in on my conversations is exactly the kind of mentality that will ensure that we dont have any freedoms 100Years from now.

So...Support Bush....Believe in National Security....OOOOO and remmember.....Clinton got a BJ and almost got impeached....thats what the Right wing is about.....George Lied and sent us to war illegally wiretapped....illegally spent TAXPAYER dollars....and has been criminally Negligent in ensuring that the United States of America is safe.

BTW, just because something, I.E average americans not having a say in thier government, has been a way for a long time doesnt mean its right. The Catholic church murdered over a million free thinking woman and called it Holy....nuff said. Tradition isnt a synonym for infallible.

Finally, do you even have any idea whatsoever what a Military trial consists of or how broadly defined the Word Terrorism is? Because, IMHO, if you did you wouldn't feel the way you do. I come from a Military Family...a long line of Military Fathers....While i would call myself anymore than an adept in regards to Military Laws and Traditions...I would have to say that I have more knowledge than a layman...and A Military trial isnt a trial...its a sentencing phase....No matter how evil a person is they deserve a FAIR trial by thier peers.

I consider having oral sex in the oval office a liiiittle bit less worse than the scandals that have been happening under Bush's administration

Originally posted by steve99


First off it wasn't a nazi remark.I take offense to being called a nazi. And I should report you to the moderators. Second I was just using my freedom of free speech, that you are trying to take from me.
If it means saving lives by listening in on phone conversations then so be it.

First off, that was indeed a Nazi remark though I didn't say that you were a Nazi. You obviously saw nothing wrong with launching single remarks of why a certain poster is on drugs because he disagrees with you and can enter into discussion and you can't.

You then proved it. You claim that Osama took away our rights. Bush in fact did since others were there who had to remind the paranoia team that we don't have to go back to the Inquisitions to deal with the War on Terror, especially when we know of no other American that has ties to the Bin Ladens but President Bush.

Osama didn't make any Patriot Act from the Inquisitions, from the Communists and from the Nazis. Bush did!

Originally posted by Pita
I consider having oral sex in the oval office a liiiittle bit less worse than the scandals that have been happening under Bush's administration

Here are some of his scandels and they include giving military secrets to the chinese. Maybe if his mind was on his job instead of getting over, we wouldn't be in the mess we are in. But this is an aurgument for another thread.

I still don't feel like I am losing any rights.

users.aol.com...

Originally posted by tmac100
First off, that was indeed a Nazi remark though I didn't say that you were a Nazi. You obviously saw nothing wrong with launching single remarks of why a certain poster is on drugs because he disagrees with you and can enter into discussion and you can't.

I didn't disagee with you or agree with you I just think the remarks are from left field.

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[edit on 29-5-2006 by DontTreadOnMe]

i]Originally posted by steve99

First off Bush didn't take away any rights, it was tha arabs that flew those planes that did.

Correction: The Arabs didn't make the Patriot Act that came right out of the Inquisitions telling us that the Constitution was "outdated." Others opposed Bush's decisions to take away the rights of the people to compensate for his great unprecedented failure to protect the American people during 911.

1-If my privacy will be violated to save lives,then do it. That hasen't affected anyones life that I know. And the people I speek to feel the same. As do the majority of Americans.

Correction: You know well that the American forefathers put in privacy knowing that any government being transformed to a tyrannical establishment will record the thoughts and wishes of the people in order to run an inquisition against them and kill them in secret. You know well the Patriot Act wasn't created to save lives, but to destroy them.

That's why on my website is a person just like you calling us terrorists for opposing this backward set of laws, but then slipped and said smugly that America is going to fall and nothing can save it now. He said we were tying the hands of the government to save this country and then confessed it is hopeless to save.

2-There have always been scandel in goverment. Look at your freind Clinton he had more scandels than any in recent history. Including lying under oath to a grand jury.

Comment: True. He wants a New World Order also, and we don't support him.

5-If you are deemed a terrorist you should get a military trial.

Just an excuse to bring back the Inquisitions. Has Bush done anything at all that he needs a trial for? Which other American do you know of who has ties to the Bin Ladens?

6- We all still have our freedom of speech.But sometimes there is a place and a time to do it.

Comment: You didn't recognize nor honor that when you popped up on one of my posts merely asking me what drugs I'm taking because I'm American and you don't want to try to be.

Steve99: You will have to do a lot better than that to convince people they have lost their freedoms.

Comment: Isn't it a shame a major portion of them already know they have lost their freedoms??

[edit on 27-5-2006 by tmac100]

Not to take a political view here as it is not neccesary.

I would have to agree with most of what Elsenorpompom had listed(too big too quote)points one through six.

The problem with people that I have experienced in daily life is that if its not happening either right in front of their face; or more to the point, Happening to them directly; then they dont want to hear it. And unfortunately once it does happen to them, It's too late.

There is a growing consensus among ordinary americans that our govt(dems,reps, both) has abandoned them, IMHO.

It matters not what party one is affiliated with. The Consitution and the Bill of rights grant ALL EQUAL RIGHTS, whether dem or rep, black or white, rich or poor...etc. It IS a living, breathing document that has to be constantly guarded against foreign anemies AND DOMESTIC. When we cease questioning those that we entrust with the task of protecting our treasured values; we open a window for those of less then the upmost of virtue seize those rights for themselves at the pain of the masses. I'm NOT saying bush or anyone else IS this. I am merely pointing out that and I quote Thomas Jefferson; "when a people fear the govt, it is called tyranny, When the govt fears the people, liberty." And also read my signature about old Ben Franklin. These are NOT just words that are good for quoting. They are a constant reminder to stay ever vigilant in the defense of our, beloved and most cherished of documents.

We as a people must remove the blinders that come with the bonds of party affiliation. Somewhere along the line we as a people forgot that freedom DOES NOT mean the freedom to take away other peoples freedom(not to be redundant on the word freedom.)

I may or may not be considered a "traitor" . But I have nothing but love for this country and I lvoe with all my being the Constitution and the Bill of rights. THAT is where my loyalties lie. Just because I have nothing to hide from the govt. DOES NOT mean that I want them invading my private life. Our PRIVATE lives are just that PRIVATE. Our founding fore-fathers went through great pains to ensure this.

The War on Terror is a war of ideology; as I'm sure no one would disagree with.
And in a war of ideology it is of the UPMOST importance to NOT COMPROMISE on your ideology. What do I mean? Simple by creating laws like the PATRIOT ACT, and other voluntary measures to "temporarily suspend" our rights, we have already compromised our most fundemental reason for the war., OUR IDEOLOGY!
the terrorists have already won, whether the terrorists are BUSH(liberals), or arabs(conservatives.) And almost noone it seems, wants to see this. WE HAVE ALREADY LOST THE WAR ON TERROR! And we helped them do it!

The time to Act and step up for your country is NOT AFTER it has been siezed; but, BEFORE. Im NOT saying that we need to pick up guns and start shooting people; as violence would only make you a terrorist; but I am saying to contact your local, state, federal, officials repeatedly and with the upmost of sincerety and kindness; to let them know that you are or are not happy with their performance. Tell them your ideas, cant hurt. Sure they may just disregard it; but then again, they may just use it.Yeah so you may not get "credit", but if thats why your doing it you shouldnt even bother.

ANd thats my $.02-keep the change

[edit on 27-5-2006 by TONE23]

Steve, you lost any credibility you had when you said there's a time and a place for freedom of speech.

ROFL! I know it's been said, but please tell me when Bin Laden set up the Patriot Act BEFORE 9/11, told Bush he was above the law in torture memos, started setting up free speech zones, and said "you're either with us or with the terrorists." Or, paraphrasing Cheney, "asking questions about 9/11 helps the terrorists. Anyone who helps the terrorists is a terrorist."

Originally posted by truthseeka
Steve, you lost any credibility you had when you said there's a time and a place for freedom of speech.

ROFL! I know it's been said, but please tell me when Bin Laden set up the Patriot Act BEFORE 9/11, told Bush he was above the law in torture memos, started setting up free speech zones, and said "you're either with us or with the terrorists." Or, paraphrasing Cheney, "asking questions about 9/11 helps the terrorists. Anyone who helps the terrorists is a terrorist."

Maybe that wasn't the best thing to put down. But freedom of speech has been the same for as far as I can remember. Back in the 60's it was the same as now.
The problem with the left(which I can see is most of you)is you want your cake and eat it too. How would you have lived during WW2 with rationing.
None of your rights have been taken away, you all probally live the same way you did before the war on terrorism.
You always blame Bush for the mess but there is the guy before him that set the table and he should also be ridiculed.

Typical neocon response.

"Well, Clinton did some of this, too."

And? Tmac already pointed out that Clinton is a fellow globalist and is in on it. Why don't you look at my sig and see what Clinton really is?

You Bush lovers like to deflect the spotlight on others and pretend like Bush is the best thing to happen to this country. I guess y'all prefer a dictator to a president, because that's what Bush thinks he is now...

Personally I feel a lot safer AND more free under President Bush.

The main reason for this is he did not call for an extension of the assault weapons ban. My personal belief is that as long as we have the second amendment we are free, once that is taken from us (easily the most important item in the bill of rights imnsho), we then have to worry about the .gov really taking our freedoms. I have, myself, in no way felt like any right has been taken from me.

As for the safer part I don't have to worry about the ATF or any other .gov raid like what happened in Waco or Ruby Ridge under Clinton. I go to a lot of other forums, some probably not the most popular for various reason so I won't post the names but even though I go to them I just don't feel like the .gov under this administration feels the need to call for the end of militias and what not

My own beliefs on Bush are as follows:

I feel he is doing what he feels is best under the circumstances. The resulting legislation after 9/11 was sure created through a lot of passion and patriotism and the feeling to protect America. I feel like he believes he is a father who thinks the US is his kids and all he is doing is protecting them and sometimes with children you have to do a little snooping to make sure they just say no to weed or whatever.

@elsenorpompom

You're blaming Bush for the loss of the right to privacy? I guess hate makes people think irrationally. Can you be more specific?

Congressmen and Senators above the law? I guess you mean (D) William Jefferson. Didn't Bush order his records sealed? Do you know that Bush ordered his own cabinet members records open, that would be Scooter Libby.

Why do you think that Cheneys hunting accident was not reported to the authorities? Cheneys accident was reported to the local law enforcement immediately. They deemed it for what is was...a freaking accident...why go any further? Since when does the national media deserve a story over local media? Why take away a local reporters scoop and hand it over to big media?

Congress has a 99% re-election rate? Stretching the truth a little bit? Some would call that lying.

If I decided to go to a speech, and all of a sudden I break out in "God Bless America" at the top of my lungs. Why would I be dragged out?

Did you know it was not only Sheehag that was removed from the State of the Union speech? A Republican Senators wife was also removed for wearing a Pro-Troop T-shirt.

It seems some people would rather have a do-nothing appeaser as President. Well we had that and it led directly to 9/11, and it is a shame the President Bush had to clean up that mess and gets bashed daily for it.

[edit on 28-5-2006 by Carseller4]

Originally posted by Elsenorpompom

4)Fourth Amendment- Ureasonable Search and Seizures. NY Subways...12 year old girl arrested for eating fries on subway. Random searches by NYC police. Frisking and intensive searching at ALL AIRPORTS(Iunderstand why but its still unreasonable)

Random searches were legal long before Bush ever came to power. Random searches for example D.U.I spot checks are not a violation of the 4th Amendment. There has to be some method to the random searches though every other person, every third person etc..

Come to the United Kingdom...

Its getting even worse here. Even our media (like The Times and Independent) have been publishing opinion sections about our "coming totalitarian state" and the fact this Country is a "dictatorship waiting to happen". We already ready have laws inplace that can strip our democracy.

Choose a period in the history of the United States and you find a segment of society that has had their inalienable rights crushed or an inappropriate general application of law applied. Freedoms and liberties in the United States are relative to era then type, region and group (broken down to the nth).

The ACLU existed long before the current administration.


mg