Official: Evidence points to unjustified killings by Marines

Originally posted by Souljah

Oh yes - to Preserve Democracy against the Evils of Communism, right?
Like in Many countries of South America during Cold War?

Exactly. Considering that Both Mao and Stalin Killed more people than Hitler protecting against the evils of communism seems like a rather good Idea.



And it must be even nicer to create a Phantom Terrorist and then Hunt him Forever.

And it must be also nice to create an Endless War scenario too, ey?

War = Profit

Endless War = Endless Profit

Nice!

Honestly Soulhjah, why do you feel the eed to apologise for evil?

Originally posted by ShazamsChampion
Exactly. Considering that Both Mao and Stalin Killed more people than Hitler protecting against the evils of communism seems like a rather good Idea.

Both FOOLS god played by the BIG FISH swimming in the Ocean.

There are far bigger PLAYAS then Stalin or Mao or any other president of any other country in this World.

Countries are no more - just Business as Usual.

Honestly Soulhjah, why do you feel the eed to apologise for evil?

I don't Appologise Evil - well possibly in Your eyes.

But everyone has a right to their own Opinion - as do You so do I, right?

Lets get back to the Topic:

LA Times

An official involved in an investigation of Camp Pendleton Marines' actions in an Iraqi town cites "a total breakdown in morality."

Photographs taken by a Marine intelligence team have convinced investigators that a Marine unit killed as many as 24 unarmed Iraqis, some of them "execution-style," in the insurgent stronghold of Haditha after a roadside bomb killed an American in November, officials close to the investigation said Friday.

The pictures are said to show wounds to the upper bodies of the victims, who included several women and six children. Some were shot in the head and some in the back, congressional and defense officials said.

One government official said the pictures showed that infantry Marines from Camp Pendleton "suffered a total breakdown in morality and leadership, with tragic results."

"The wounds indicated execution-style" shootings, said a Defense Department official who had been briefed on the contents of the photos.

Shooting children in the Back?

You could hardly call them PEACE-Keepers.

And if there is one squad of Marines, that suffers - and I quote, "a total breakdown in morality and leadership, with tragic results."; I wonder how many More Squads like these are out there.

Execution Style Tactics - just like the Nazi SS.

Souljah no one here is condoning this event, war is hell and incidents like this unfortunately happen, however this is defiantly not representative of the US military as a whole. The fact that these Marines are being held accountable and (if found guilty) punished should tell you that. I wonder if the SS did the same?

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Souljah no one here is condoning this event, war is hell and incidents like this unfortunately happen, however this is defiantly not representative of the US military as a whole. The fact that these Marines are being held accountable and (if found guilty) punished should tell you that. I wonder if the SS did the same?

I agree - war is hell.

First - who started the War?

Second - how do you know what is going on in Iraq and that this just an "Isolated Incident"?

Third - what do you mean IF found guilty; you think they are NOT?

Fourth - in the times of Nazi Germany there was no Internet, and I am sure that news did not travel this fast, so basicly if there was no internet, phones and other modern means of communication, we would not even know what happened and I am more then positive that USMC would not have gotten into all this "Trouble" to accuse these "Marines". And the SS tactics were exactly like that - Retalition upon civilan population.

Armed forces just do what they do BEST - Kill People.

The rest is History...

[edit on 28/5/06 by Souljah]

Originally posted by Souljah
First - who started the War?

In the context of this topic its pointless to argue this.

Originally posted by Souljah
Second - how do you know what is going on in Iraq and that this just an "Isolated Incident"?

I get my information from having talked to people I know who have served in the US military and who are currently serving in Iraq. I could care less that some biased website claim’s all US soldiers are monsters that kill everything, and then presents spiced up “she said he said” evidence as proof. You may think that all US soldiers are evil, however the truth is they aren't, nor do they condone incidents like this, that may be hard to understand for you if you base your view on them from isolated incidents and selective news sources.

Originally posted by Souljah
Third - what do you mean IF found guilty; you think they are NOT?

What I think is irrelevant, what matters are the facts. If when presented in court these facts show that the people in question are guilty then, fine, convict and punish them, however I wont hang them just yet. Besides, I thought you were against punishment without a trial and all that stuff?

Second - how do you know what is going on in Iraq and that this just an "Isolated Incident"?

Fourth - in the times of Nazi Germany there was no Internet, and I am sure that news did not travel this fast, so basicly if there was no internet, phones and other modern means of communication, we would not even know what happened

Didn't you just answer your own question? I mean you did quote that the SS had poor communication and the such? Well nowadays communication is very good and the use of mass media on the ground often means the majority of reports are acted upon. Especially those involving wrong doing.

Third - what do you mean IF found guilty; you think they are NOT?

Let's just shoot the whole squad then shall we?! The context of the killings needs to be looked at. We do not know what and how the events exculated fully. Like every single crime in a democracy, you are innocent until proven guilty. You do not know what happened on that patrol until there has been a full investigation into events.

Armed forces just do what they do BEST - Kill People.

Well.. this quote annoyes me greatly. Idiotic views. The armed forces are there often to protect a nation, if your country was to be invaded who the hell would you rely upon?! I have many family and friends in the army and some little nieve, small minded person insulting people they DO NOT know aggrivates me greatly.

The rest is History...

[edit on 28/5/06 by Souljah]

I apologise if i seem abrupt. Just the debate in question and the Iraq war as a whole is going to raise heated debates. Making a generalisation is just absolutely ridiculous in trying to express an argument.

It's like me stating that any person who works on a computer is a nerd.. quite untrue and extremely offensive. Of course I am extremely against such civilian attrocities and I will not defend murderers, but until the FULL context of the scenario is given then I will critisise, until then I will remain slightly open minded as to the events which surrounded these murders.

I know it is no excuse but war is a strange thing, although it is not excusable war can alter the mind and such sights can numb emotions, perhaps the soldiers in question were on some kind of drug? It is not the first time in war drugs have been used, or perhaps families were withholding valuable information and they were expressing anger? Again I am going to repeat that i'm not making excuses fro the soldiers, but I will support them until the full extent of the truth is know instead of jumping on the bandwagon and attacking every single soldier.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
I get my information from having talked to people I know who have served in the US military and who are currently serving in Iraq. I could care less that some biased website claim’s all US soldiers are monsters that kill everything, and then presents spiced up “she said he said” evidence as proof. You may think that all US soldiers are evil, however the truth is they aren't, nor do they condone incidents like this, that may be hard to understand for you if you base your view on them from isolated incidents and selective news sources.

I don't think US soldiers are Evil.

Well not the Majority at least.

Your President definatly is.

And he has gotten them in the Situation, which gets out of Hand and Little Kiddies Die.

He is Responsible.

Not the Grunt in the Sand.

He's Far from Home, Afraid, Nervous and ofcourse Trained to Kill - and I know that things get out of Hand.

War is Hell.

My Cousing was in Bosnia - Belive me I KNOW.

And you know what Attrocities happened there.

From ALL Sides.

Yeah you are kind of Right - I have NO IDEA what is going on in there.

I just make an Opinion, on Presented Information - based on my Past Experience.

That's all - but hey; this is a Debate Board right? A place where people exchange opinions?

What I think is irrelevant, what matters are the facts. If when presented in court these facts show that the people in question are guilty then, fine, convict and punish them, however I wont hang them just yet. Besides, I thought you were against punishment without a trial and all that stuff?

You will not EVER know the FACTS.

And me Neither.

So, it is really pointless for us to Argue, since we have no Idea what happened!

Weird, huh?

Ofcourse - give them a Fair and Honest trial; but they are not the War Criminals I want to see in COURT, if you know what I mean?

They are Smiling in Giggling right now.

These Marines are not.

Originally posted by Knights
Didn't you just answer your own question? I mean you did quote that the SS had poor communication and the such? Well nowadays communication is very good and the use of mass media on the ground often means the majority of reports are acted upon. Especially those involving wrong doing.

So your point is?

That it is Bad?

Or what?

Like every single crime in a democracy, you are innocent until proven guilty.

You mean like the Detainees in Guantnamo? - Children included.

You do not know what happened on that patrol until there has been a full investigation into events.

You mean like that Patrol that opened Fired on Italian journalist and secret service agent, which got Killed?

Well.. this quote annoyes me greatly. Idiotic views. The armed forces are there often to protect a nation, if your country was to be invaded who the hell would you rely upon?! I have many family and friends in the army and some little nieve, small minded person insulting people they DO NOT know aggrivates me greatly.

To Protect Which Nation?

Do you fee, that US led Coalition Forces are PROTECTING you from something in Iraq?

And, of a Country is Invaded - Illegally that is; you think some people would be Protecting their Home right now?

I understand your position, since you have your Folk downthere in that Hell on Earth.

Have you been invaded by Iraq or Afganistan?

And if you have a Problem with the Quote - I suggest you complain to the Army, since they have made them Trained Killers, not me...

Well,maybe THAT is the way to win this war;become as they are.

The "civilized" way isn't working.

What a hullaballoo when there's the slightest whisper that our boys may have done what they have done for centuries-go off the deep end and destroy all in sight for one action.

If anyone thinks they could handle it better I advise them to sign up!
GW will give you your chance,and I guarantee that things are a lot different THERE than they are sitting with a cup of coffee reading about what "might" have happened.

Let's do this:in the ranks of our beleaguered soldiers who are overworked, underpaid and underappreciated,miles from home surrounded by hostile faces and exploding devices,may be a few "Insurgents".Yes,that's what we'll call them!
Insurgents! People who don't agree with what is happening and might just lash out at whoever they think is responsible. I like that description.They've used it successfully for quite a while now.
Flame me gently

24 bah I would put the smart money on a much larger number than that.

Whats required to join the army these days? a GED and a heart beat. You got only imagine there is a few teams running around out there that could give a flying hell.
Ever here an idiot go on about some past war and how so many people were killed no matter what etc etc. I guess if you drop a bomb and innocents die it isn't much difference so why the worry now versus than.

innocent death is innocent death than again war is a serious giving up of using the brain stem.

New York Times

The U.S. military is bracing for a major scandal over the alleged slaying of Iraqi civilians by Marines in Haditha -- charges so serious they could threaten President Bush's effort to rally support at home for an increasingly unpopular war.

With a political storm brewing, the top U.S. Marine, Gen. Michael W. Hagee, is headed to Iraq to personally deliver the message that troops should use deadly force ''only when justified, proportional and, most importantly, lawful.''

Haditha is not the only case pending:

• On Wednesday, the military announced an investigation into allegations that Marines killed a civilian April 26 near Fallujah. The statement gave no further details except that ''several service members'' had been sent back to the United States ''pending the results of the criminal investigation.''
  
  
• Last July, Iraq's ambassador to the United Nations, Samir al-Sumaidaie, accused the Marines of killing his 21-year-old cousin in cold blood during a search of his family's home in Haditha, a city of about 90,000 people along the Euphrates River 140 miles northwest of Baghdad.

The military ordered a criminal investigation but the results have not been announced.


America in the view of many Iraqis has no credibility. We do not believe what they say is correct,'' said Sheik Sattar al-Aasaf, a tribal leader in Anbar province, which includes Haditha. ''U.S. troops are a very well-trained and when they shoot, it isn't random but due to an order to kill Iraqis. People say they are the killers.''


Some analysts, however, say the killings of civilians also reflect frustration among young troops fighting a difficult war with no end in sight. They say these young fighters have been thrust into an alien culture for repeated tours in a war whose strategy many of them do not understand.

"What we're seeing more of now, and these incidents will increase monthly, is the end result of fuzzy, imprecise national direction combined with situational ethics at the highest levels of this government," said retired Air Force Col. Mike Turner, a former planner at the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

Apprently this is NOT an Isolated incident at all.

And Apparently, MANY Iraqis say that US Troops are; well-trained, Killers.

Ah - What do they know!

They just LIVE there!

Originally posted by ShazamsChampion

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight. Because its not as if men have evaded more intense manhunts for longer. You are aware of course there are Nazi war criminal who are still out there somewhere to this day?

ROFLMMFAO!!

Somebody PLEASE tell this guy about Operation Paperclip. I think he'd be surprised how many Nazis "escaped" to South America and (gasp) the US. What would NASA be without them...

Marines and the 'massacre': a neighbour tells of aftermath

GRAPHIC accounts of the apparent slaughter of unarmed civilians have been obtained by The Times as Washington braces itself for the results of an investigation into what threatens to be the most damaging military scandal in Iraq.

On Saturday Iman Hassan, a 10-year-old Iraqi girl, told The Times how she had watched US marines kill her mother, father, grandmother, grandfather, four-year-old cousin and two uncles.

Residents in the insurgent stronghold of al-Haditha have now stepped forward to corroborate elements of Iman’s story and to describe to The Times the murder of a second family, which included five children, the youngest of whom were two and three years old.


The latest accounts given to The Times paint a gruesome picture of events on November 19. About a quarter of an hour after the attack on Iman’s house, Mohammed Basit, 23, an engineering student, said that he watched as Marines entered the home of his neighbour, Salim Rasif, He peered from a window as the family, including Salim’s wife, sister-in-law and their five children, rushed into a bedroom.

“I saw them all gathering in their parents’ room, then we heard a bang which was most likely a hand grenade, then we heard shooting,” he said.

Throughout the next day the Americans cordoned off Salim and Iman’s homes, which are located about 20 metres apart. The next night Basit and his father slipped inside Salim’s house.

“The blood was everywhere in Salim’s bedroom,” Basit said. “I saw organs and flesh on the ground and a liver on the bed. Blood splattered the ceiling. The bullet holes were in the walls and in different parts of the house."

“We found an unexploded grenade in the bathroom, which had been set on fire. There was shrapnel and a crater on the floor and the wall of the bathroom.”

Later Basit joined relatives and friends who went to al-Haditha mortuary to pick up the bodies of those whom the Marines had killed. The corpses were zipped in plastic bags. “They were all shot, even the kids. They were shot more than one time, mostly in the chest and the head,” he claimed.

Salim’s daughters — A’isha, 3, Zainab, 2, Noora, 15, and Saba’a, 11 — and his eight-year-old son, Mohammed, were among the dead.

Bloody Scenes Haunt a Marine

Lance Cpl. Roel Ryan Briones says he is tormented by two memories of Nov. 19, 2005, in Haditha, Iraq.

The first is of the body of his best friend and fellow Marine blown apart just after dawn by a roadside bomb. The second is of the lifeless form of a small Iraqi girl, one of two dozen unarmed civilians allegedly killed by members of his Camp Pendleton unit — Kilo Company, 3rd Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division.

owever, Briones, who goes by Ryan, said he took photographs of the victims and helped carry their bodies out of their homes as part of the cleanup crew sent in late in the afternoon on the day of the killings.

"They ranged from little babies to adult males and females. I'll never be able to get that out of my head. I can still smell the blood. This left something in my head and heart," Briones said.

Briones was charged with stealing a pickup truck, crashing it into a house, leaving the scene of the accident, driving under the influence and resisting arrest. A picture of the spectacular crash with a white Ford F-150 lodged in a Hanford living room appeared on the Hanford Sentinel's front page April 4.

"I used to be one of those Marines who said that post-traumatic stress is a bunch of bull," said Ryan Briones, who has prescriptions for anti-depressants and sleeping pills. "But all this stuff that keeps going through my head is eating me up. I need immediate help."

Interesting two articles:

One from the Iraqi civilans point of view - and the other from a Marine point of view.

Both will have permamenent Mental Damage becaus of this event.

Even if they are Marines - Men are just Men; we all are bloody under the skin.

Mission Accomplished ey mister Bush?

Originally posted by Souljah

Originally posted by Knights
Didn't you just answer your own question? I mean you did quote that the SS had poor communication and the such? Well nowadays communication is very good and the use of mass media on the ground often means the majority of reports are acted upon. Especially those involving wrong doing.

So your point is?

That it is Bad?

Or what?

Well, ill try and make my point abit more simpler for you, you seem to make out coalition forces are running a complete amok in Iraq slaughtering innocent people without coverage. I am more than sure (with better communications) and alleged 'slaughter' would be reported on immediately.

Like every single crime in a democracy, you are innocent until proven guilty.

You mean like the Detainees in Guantnamo? - Children included.

Guantanamo is an interesting and highly arguable topic. Many of the people held are believed to be linked to terrorism or resistance groups. Many have been handed to American forces by individual bounty hunters- all America has done is intarrogate the subjects- which I give my full support to. But yes, i'm sure many are innocent and i'm sure some bounty hunters are targetting innocents. I do not blame the U.S for holding these people captives however. If one person was a terrorist and is willing to blow themselves up and kill people like me and you and give up our human rights then I FULLY agree with their human rights.. but this is my own opinion.

Well.. this quote annoyes me greatly. Idiotic views. The armed forces are there often to protect a nation, if your country was to be invaded who the hell would you rely upon?! I have many family and friends in the army and some little nieve, small minded person insulting people they DO NOT know aggrivates me greatly.

To Protect Which Nation?

Do you fee, that US led Coalition Forces are PROTECTING you from something in Iraq?

Yes, actually I do.

And, of a Country is Invaded - Illegally that is; you think some people would be Protecting their Home right now?

Ha, well in my eyes it depends. If Tony Blair started killing people, stoning them to death, torturing them and the like i'm sure I would be happy to see the back of him. Fair enough it would be dis-heartening to see another countries troops down my street, but if I kept my head down I think i'd cope and wouldn't get the urge to kidnap hostages or kill journalists and the like.

Have you been invaded by Iraq or Afganistan?

So we have to be invaded to justify being there in the first place? Of course we don't.

And if you have a Problem with the Quote - I suggest you complain to the Army, since they have made them Trained Killers, not me...

Well again pretty idiotic. I have family members in the army and several friends. If I knew they could quite happily kill an innocent family and children without a whim I guess I shouldn't see them again.. pretty hostile to me! Infact I best not walk down the street just incase I bump into someone from the army! They may be soldiers but every person I know and have ever known aren't cold blooded killers and are highly unlikely to kill at a whim.

Most stories you have present mention the word 'allegedly', not quite fact. Until it has been proven and the criminals sentanced then I will pass judgement. Many Iraqis i'm sure play to the media, if a dead body had been found i'm more than sure many may blame the U.S and thus it hits the news as being another innocent civilian killed in cold blood. Many civilians are killed each day by their own countrymen, are you sure some of these deaths haven't been declared or Chinese whispers stating the U.S had some involvement??

Originally posted by Knights
Well, ill try and make my point abit more simpler for you, you seem to make out coalition forces are running a complete amok in Iraq slaughtering innocent people without coverage. I am more than sure (with better communications) and alleged 'slaughter' would be reported on immediately.

Well I am more then sure that this "Incident" would better be Hidden among any other of these "Collater Damage Incidents" of which we do not knot and possibly never will. And if Marines, after an IED blows up their buddy, start shooting everything that moves - you bet they are running completly amok.

Guantanamo is an interesting and highly arguable topic. Many of the people held are believed to be linked to terrorism or resistance groups. Many have been handed to American forces by individual bounty hunters- all America has done is intarrogate the subjects- which I give my full support to. But yes, i'm sure many are innocent and i'm sure some bounty hunters are targetting innocents. I do not blame the U.S for holding these people captives however. If one person was a terrorist and is willing to blow themselves up and kill people like me and you and give up our human rights then I FULLY agree with their human rights.. but this is my own opinion.

As I have stated before - IF there is any EVIDENCE connecting the people held in Gitmo's to any Terrorist cells, I suggest that US goverment starts presenting those Facts and Convicting this people in a Trial. That is how a Democratic Society works - everything else is just Armed Forces running their own show - a show which is not obeying any of the International Laws or Conventions.

Ha, well in my eyes it depends. If Tony Blair started killing people, stoning them to death, torturing them and the like i'm sure I would be happy to see the back of him. Fair enough it would be dis-heartening to see another countries troops down my street, but if I kept my head down I think i'd cope and wouldn't get the urge to kidnap hostages or kill journalists and the like.

What if Tony Blair orders an Illegal Occupation of a Soverign Country, which results in a Bloody Conflict, in which ALL sides break the Rules of War? People still die on daily basis, Civilan and Military - and do remember, that people get Tortured too.

Well again pretty idiotic. I have family members in the army and several friends. If I knew they could quite happily kill an innocent family and children without a whim I guess I shouldn't see them again.. pretty hostile to me! Infact I best not walk down the street just incase I bump into someone from the army! They may be soldiers but every person I know and have ever known aren't cold blooded killers and are highly unlikely to kill at a whim.

Well then I understand your point of view - ofcourse you must defend the Armed forces then; you are completly biased and you will never ever accept any of this events, which put Armed forces in a Bad light.

War is Hell - and War sure leaves a permanent mark on Everyone that was in it.

Your Family and Friends included.

Most stories you have present mention the word 'allegedly', not quite fact. Until it has been proven and the criminals sentanced then I will pass judgement. Many Iraqis i'm sure play to the media, if a dead body had been found i'm more than sure many may blame the U.S and thus it hits the news as being another innocent civilian killed in cold blood. Many civilians are killed each day by their own countrymen, are you sure some of these deaths haven't been declared or Chinese whispers stating the U.S had some involvement??

This STORY is not an "Alleged" incident - but a FACT.

And the only question is, how many of Incidents like this happened without us ever knowing about it.

As I said before - War is Hell, and things do get out of control.

As I have stated before - IF there is any EVIDENCE connecting the people held in Gitmo's to any Terrorist cells, I suggest that US goverment starts presenting those Facts and Convicting this people in a Trial. That is how a Democratic Society works - everything else is just Armed Forces running their own show - a show which is not obeying any of the International Laws or Conventions.

I too completely agree , but this is a Guantanamo bay debate, differential to the argument in question.

What if Tony Blair orders an Illegal Occupation of a Soverign Country, which results in a Bloody Conflict, in which ALL sides break the Rules of War? People still die on daily basis, Civilan and Military - and do remember, that people get Tortured too.

Again, I agree, all sides have broken the 'rules' of conflict. 'Tortured' however still makes me raise an eyebrow (and i do realise the torture methods implemented at Guantanamo bay) but Iraqi torture methods have been enforced far worse than what any of our soldiers have been and will continue to be enforced. Simply look at many videos circulating the Internet of such tortures/ killings STILL taking place.

Well then I understand your point of view - ofcourse you must defend the Armed forces then; you are completly biased and you will never ever accept any of this events, which put Armed forces in a Bad light.

Yes, I admit I am biased. BUT if I knew that a friend/ family member had been officially convicted of killing an innocent human being my views would change completely. Because the media has picked up such an event the chances are the killers will be brought to justice and should be sentenced justingly. Until a full investigation has taken place and the people responsible for the crime have been brought to justice, then will I rest my own judgement.

War is Hell - and War sure leaves a permanent mark on Everyone that was in it.

Your Family and Friends included.

I agree fully, bad things have happened during war since the start of man, let's hope those responsible are brought to justice on a full evidence raised trial.

And the only question is, how many of Incidents like this happened without us ever knowing about it.

As I said before - War is Hell, and things do get out of control.

Well as raised above, many civilian deaths through misguided weapons and the such do go unreported. Many 'rampaging' solidiers however do will hit the news, through Al-Jazeera television or the such. All I am trying to argue is many of these reports, unless FULLY proven should not surface on the media. The war is unpopular enough, similar to the Vietnam war, I am not fully satisfied by the serious of events that many Iraquis may be playing to the camera somewhat or blaming civilian deaths on rampaging soldiers.

Like I have said above, of course I do not condone the war in Iraq and i'm certain many attrocoties have taken place that shouldn't. All I am trying to say is until the facts and the guilty members of the patrol have been brought to justice then action should be taken against them. Many soldiers have died for the wrong cause, probably for something which they haven't even joined the army for. I do not agree with attacking the soldiers personally.

The attack took place after 4 HUMVE vehicles were attacked, not every member of that patrol was guilty, nor should be attacked by the media. A full investigation of the events should be undergone and the guilty brought to maximum justice and critiscised by the media accordingly.

Originally posted by Knights
Again, I agree, all sides have broken the 'rules' of conflict. 'Tortured' however still makes me raise an eyebrow (and i do realise the torture methods implemented at Guantanamo bay) but Iraqi torture methods have been enforced far worse than what any of our soldiers have been and will continue to be enforced. Simply look at many videos circulating the Internet of such tortures/ killings STILL taking place.

Everybody uses Torture - Iraqi's, Americans, Russians, Vietnamese, Chiense; please show me one country that does not Torture; I meand during a Conflict, not during Peace-time. There are Laws and Conventions written to protect Prisoners of War, but Nobody actually follows those Laws, they are simply ignored. And we really do not know what goes on behind the closed doors of several secret detention camps owned by CIA - and we probably never ever will. But it is still taking place, I am sure of that too.

Yes, I admit I am biased. BUT if I knew that a friend/ family member had been officially convicted of killing an innocent human being my views would change completely. Because the media has picked up such an event the chances are the killers will be brought to justice and should be sentenced justingly. Until a full investigation has taken place and the people responsible for the crime have been brought to justice, then will I rest my own judgement.

Yes ofcourse - so they killed a couple of civilans; you think they are the only ones? What about those airplanes that dropped tons of bombs on Fallujah during the occupation; how many civilans they killed? Have any of those pilots been accused or trialed or brought to justice? I do not think so. The Army protects itself and their own people at all costs - and I do belive that this is just some more of that beef jerky for the people and the media to chew on, while they are still roaming around without any restrictions.

If there is a Man that should be held in a Military Tribunal - it is the Bush Goverment, not the Grunts thet are serving them. They are just Fodder for the Global Elite, which does all the War-Planning and War-Profiting. Those poor guys will FOREVER have Nightmares and Mental problems because of this - they will not get Richer. The Global Elite IS getting richer as we speak! And sadly, they could not have done it without those people, Volunuteering to go to Hell on Earth.

I agree fully, bad things have happened during war since the start of man, let's hope those responsible are brought to justice on a full evidence raised trial.

True - but do you think the People BEHIND those wars will Ever get brought to Justice? Sadly I do not think so, since they OWN the Court, the Judge, the Jury and the District Attorney. Pratcticly they are pretty much Untouchable. That's why they always get away.

Well as raised above, many civilian deaths through misguided weapons and the such do go unreported. Many 'rampaging' solidiers however do will hit the news, through Al-Jazeera television or the such. All I am trying to argue is many of these reports, unless FULLY proven should not surface on the media. The war is unpopular enough, similar to the Vietnam war, I am not fully satisfied by the serious of events that many Iraquis may be playing to the camera somewhat or blaming civilian deaths on rampaging soldiers.

Perhaps you are right - I do not know, since I am not there, and if I receive a report, it is from a 3rd or 4th party, which means it could have been "Washed" and "Edited" several times before I got a look at it. And seeing things from This Perspective, I simply should not belive Anything coming out of Iraq; nor CNN, nor Fox News, nor Al-Jazeera, nor Reuters. But we as people, are "programmed" to accept certain information and reject others - I know you will quickly reject any reports about Coalition troops killing civilans without any Proof.

Like I have said above, of course I do not condone the war in Iraq and i'm certain many attrocoties have taken place that shouldn't. All I am trying to say is until the facts and the guilty members of the patrol have been brought to justice then action should be taken against them. Many soldiers have died for the wrong cause, probably for something which they haven't even joined the army for. I do not agree with attacking the soldiers personally.

Well, a Soldier is what a Soldier does.
And I do belive that Combat Stress, especially in Iraq, has alot to do with behaviour of these Marines. As I have said before in this thread; they are scared, far away from home, nervous, their buddy just died in front of their eyes - suddenly Insticts take over, emotions like, Revenge, Anger, Hatred. Things get out of control. But the problem is, that they indeed ARE on somebody elses Homeland, where somebody else is Home; and would you just stand asaide and look how Soldiers of the occupying army walk inside a house of your neighbour and kill an entire Family from 1-year old baby forward? Or would that also wake emotions like Revenge, Anger, Hatred in you?

It is so obvious that there are no Sides winning this War in Iraq right now - it looks to me like All of the conflicting sides are actually LOOSING.

The only side that is winning, is that one, which alsways remains Hidden - the one, that always BENEFITS from Wars, the one that is Untouchable, and the one that is laughing at us right now.

A while ago I posted this link to an ITV newscast interviewing a little girl who was the survivor. The moderator directed me to this thread. My original point went something like this:

Those of you who believe the embedded CNN journalist who says these troops might care to view this news item.

You can see the bullet holes indicating that the US troops forced entry into the house, killing all but one of its occupants. This girl's parents and grandfather, among others, were killed, as was her neighbour.

The item notes that the US forces have moved away from their initial denial, despite the fact that a CNN journalist just knows they're innocent.

And I think we can conclude from the end of the video that this girl probably won't be too much of a fan of the US from now on.

In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if she wound up being a suicide bomber.

The clip is 3:12 long.

In under four minutes the first reply was from Deltaboy. You can check the times on the thread here if you want.

The thread was promptly closed by the mods and I was directed to this discussion. Thanks for that.

I had time to respond to Deltaboy that he hadn't watched the video, and was responding like an ideologue. He had said,

If she decided to be a suicide bomber, more Iraqis will die. I feel sorry for her and for the victims she may take. She may hate America but that don't mean automatic revenge. Ask the Japanese when we killed millions of their people. I wonder why not many Japanese suicide bombers after the war.

My broader point is that the hearts and minds of the Iraqis have been lost, were lost a long time ago and this is simply obvious to all but the most blinkered. Deltaboy then mailed me, saying that he had watched the video and that he 'types fast'. Not only that, but I hadn't responded to his point. Apparently there was one.

As a side issue, I find that it strainss credibility that someone could notice the thread, follow the links, watch the video (that part alone taking 3:15), and type a response in rather less than 45 seconds. It obviously didn't require a lot of thought.

Firstly, the Japanese attacked the US, although it was pretty well provoked by the US. This is an important point. The Japanese had embarked upon a war of conquest and had been thoroughly defeated.

The Iraqis know themselves to be innocent in this matter. They are suffering under foreign occupation and if any of their government actually formally surrendered, the way it happened in 1945, the Iraqis don't care because they know that the US is there for their oil.

This is a slightly more substantive point in fact than the one Deltaboy wanted me to answer in his email, which was the one about more Iraqis dying if she became a suicide bomber.

Well, all I can say to that is that Deltaboy's crystal ball is much better than mine. All I said was it wouldn't surprise me if she became a suicide bomber. DB is convinced that if she did, only Iraqis would come to harm. My point stands: that's another Al-Qaeda recruit right there, plus her story percolating through the Arabic language media may recruit some more.