Bring the Boys Back Home

Originally posted by marg6043
What a pity when a member decides to express his personal opinions by experiences it gets to be taken by the same people that only support the war by ideologies and are watching by the side lines.

Um-Gazz, I understand what you feel and why, too bad that some just prefer to attack than to admit the realities of life in the front lines for our loves ones in Iraq.

It's easier to attack the source than bring some meaningful debate.

Very nice thread.

FYI I don't really know if you know the people your referring to when you say "the same people that only support the war by ideologies and are watching by the side lines"

I assume your talking about the people who disagree with UMGazz and that would be people like WestPoint17, Seekerof, and myself.

Let me tell you that those three people are either going into the military (West Point), in the military (Me), or have served in the military(Seekerof).

So where are the sidelines myself and others are standing on? Oh thats right we've crossed them.

Beyond the three posters mentioned I have a cousin in Iraq, a family friend in Iraq, and I know a couple people who have come from Iraq. Those people seem to be pretty in touch with the "realities" and don't want to come home right now.

Now that isn't to say UMGazz's nephew is wrong as everyone is entitled to an opinon and he has earned his by serving his nation.

I could go on but my frustration is already at its limits.

[edit on 12/30/2005 by Agent47]

Well, well...easy does it.

It's New Years for crying out loud! As for the topic, I respect it even though I don't quite share it. We couldn't take Saddam out in '91 because (like it on not) the mission was to free Kuwait and not to invade Iraq. End mission. Full stop. And I don't think simply pulling out now will make things better.

But that is MY opinion.

Now...the matter of this thread. As just a side observer (and we HAVE established that I'm not even a supporter of the opinion expressed) it seems to me that an opinion was posted (even with some humor on the following orders comment) and now it is being construed into activism.

SeekerOf...I respect what you say (and you know that), but it looks to me like the minute this thread was posted you jumped out from the bushes (no pun intended) with a big stick ready for war. I don't see activism or an agenda here. I could certainly go through some of your posts and make that same comment about activism and you could do the same to some of mine. You are commenting on activism when in the first post...I saw not one mention of politics or any side. Just an opinion that troops should come home.

I could say in my opinion everyone should use Firefox and drop IE. Opinion? Sure. Activism against Microsoft? Hardly.

Anyway, I KNOW you get the point I am trying to make (badly) and that activism attack angle needs to be dropped. Any further jabs on that issue and I will treat it as a personal attack. Now everyone kiss and make up.

ps) SeekerOf was a respected Mod who chose to step down. Nothing more to it and I likewise will not tolerate comments/speculation/jabs regarding that issue either.

Originally posted by Agent47

Beyond the three posters mentioned I have a cousin in Iraq, a family friend in Iraq, and I know a couple people who have come from Iraq. Those people seem to be pretty in touch with the "realities" and don't want to come home right now.

Well as a former military wife and my husband retired after 22 years of service with 18 months in the middle east helping liberate Kuwait, I guess I have as much opinion as anybody else.

Is that enough? No?

Well working and living near a military base with friends that are serving in Iraq and families that has lost loves ones including one of my husband former CO leaving a wife with 4 young daughters yes is hard to forget what is at stake when wars are wagged because a president feels that he should.

Occurs is all opinions and everybody have them

Yes military life is hard I survived but many don't.

Happy new years all.

Originally posted by marg6043

Well working and living near a military base with friends that are serving in Iraq and families that has lost loves ones including one of my husband former CO leaving a wife with 4 young daughters yes is hard to forget what is at stake when wars are wagged because a president feels that he should.

Occurs is all opinions and everybody have them

Yes military life is hard I survived but many don't.

Happy new years all.

I spent 18 years as an Army brat so I've lived both sides of the military life but that doesn't matter because in the post you quoted I wasn't trying to start a pissing contest as to who knew/experienced more concerning the military, I was simply pointing out that the people who disagreed with UMGazz weren't simply standing on the side lines with nothing to lose as you posted. I noticed you didn't quote that part of my post.

[edit on 12/31/2005 by Agent47]

I guess I am as feed up with what is going on in my nation and with the mess in Iraq as many other Americans are, the only thing I see very wrong is the way people react to others when their voice their disappointment, fear and anger.

Wars should never be wag on hunch or lies or false or wrong information.

Because wars cost lives not only for the ones that wag the war but for the victims of the war that has been wagged upon.

My husband is retired and you are not in the military, so that means side lines for me.

Anybody that is not active fighting in Iraq.

Originally posted by marg6043


My husband is retired and you are not in the military, so that means side lines for me.

Anybody that is not active fighting in Iraq.

I'm not in the military? Have you been reading my posts?

FYI I am in the army. Just in case you missed that last time.

And you wanna talk about wars fought on lies? Try vietnam. The Gulf of Tonken incident? Total bogus rabble rousing by Johnson. But hey we fought that war but brought the boys back home. Home where they were spit on and the country then lost all will to commit anywhere militarily because we had our nose bloodied a little in SE Asia. Now we lost 65,000 in Vietnam and withdrew and we have lost just under 2,300 in Iraq and people like you are talking about pulling out.

God what message would that send to the world? It would tell them we are pussies like Vietnam did. If you bloody America's nose a little the people's will to win will evaporate and you will win. Thats the message we send to the terrorists, China, and anyone else envious of our position in the world?

We pulled out in Vietnam and Iran wasn't afraid of us in 79, Saddam wasn't afraid of us in 91, and Iran or who knows who else won't be afraid of us after we pull out in Iraq.

I guess i miss the "Active Duty status"

By the way we did what we were supposed to do attack the country that we though was the enemy, Iraq was not part of it, only Saddam was Bush enemy.

Also You talk about china the last time I check clothing tags in local stores it said made in China that means that US support China economy ver well.

So they are not actually the enemy.

Funny how things thend to be forgotten in the heat of trying to win an argument.

Also if you don't fall in the side lines status then why the anger.

Originally posted by marg6043
I guess i miss the "Active Duty status"

By the way we did what we were supposed to do attack the country that we though was the enemy, Iraq was not part of it, only Saddam was Bush enemy.

Trying to get the grammer straight but I think what you meant was that we only attacked Saddam because he is Bush's enemy? Somehow I don't see invading the whole country, dismantling their armed forces, and then wasting the time to rebuild everything as an attack solely on Saddam.

Also You talk about china the last time I check clothing tags in local stores it said made in China that means that US support China economy ver well.

So they are not actually the enemy.

Very good, you know they sell us clothing. Well let me share a secret with you. Prior to WW2 Germany use to sell us beer, cars, and other domestic goods. Oh and how could I forget selling Japan oil and other industrial goods.

Either you don't grasp history or your naive. In the history of the geopolitics your neighbor can go from your best friend to your enemy overnight. Seeing as the Chinese routinely threaten nuclear war with us over Taiwan and have impounded our naval planes I wouldn't throw them into our best buddy category.

Funny how things thend to be forgotten in the heat of trying to win an argument.

Also if you don't fall in the side lines status then why the anger.

Why the anger? Because like I said earlier if we pull out of Iraq it sends a horrible message to our enemies around the world. Just like pulling out of Vietnam hurt us for years.

Bring them Home - as Soon as Possible!

I don't really have time to go into it here, I am at work (sneaky look over both shoulders ... ), and I dasn't speak for any other, but I'm getting a little tired of the BS over what we didn't do in Nam... Having been there, having fought there, having left friends there, and having nothing to go back there for ... We were the subject of violation by a incredibly stupid, and selfish government, much like the one we have now.

It is really cool to be in the military, strut your stuff, and beat your chest, but I'm getting damned tired of being classified as a loser because I went and fought a war that our chicken sh*t politicians wanted us to fight, for whatever reason... Then didn't have the cojones to go into with a winning attitude. Kind of like now, the WMD that were never found, the uranium that was never found, and on and on... The highly stylized and extremely well paid mercenaries. The big money going to the few who have a corner on the business side of war and all it's horror.

It's truly ok to be conservative, it's truly ok to be liberal, it's truly ok to be a hawk, and it is truly ok to be a dove, because, as long as people don't think for themselves, and let a government of greedy, narrow minded, and what appears to be nefariously goal oriented people, run them, we all lose in the end.

I hope in the years to come that you young warrriors don't end up with the same kind of patch that a friend of mine wears on his jacket,

Entrant: Viet Nam War Games
Prize: Second place


Still can't type, thus the edit buttons.

[edit on 31-12-2005 by sigung86]

This thread reminds me very much to the Only One thread you started in the Middle of November, UM_Gazz.

In that thread you answered to my question:

What would you fight for, UM_Gazz? that you

"would fight for freedom and security of your country, But only after pursuing every possible avenue to a peaceful resolution. War and bloodshed would always be the very last option". You said, you would not ever invade any nation that was not a direct and immediate threat to[y]our own boarders and security".

In my personal opinion, you did not realize that the Iraq was indeed a thread to the security not only of the U.S., but to the whole world.

Saddam Hussein was a homicidal dictator who was addicted to weapons of mass destruction.

Over the years, Iraq had provided safe haven to terrorists such as Abu Nidal, (whose terror organization carried out more than 90 terrorist attacks in 20 countries that killed or injured nearly 900 people, including 12 Americans) or . Abu Abbas, who was responsible for seizing the Achille Lauro and killing an American passenger.

It is a proven fact that Iraq continued to finance terror and gaveassistance to groups that use terrorism to undermine Middle East peace.

Iraq and El-Qaeda also have had high-level contacts that go back more than a decade.

You also answered, you

"would fight for a humanitarian cause, when and where ever people are suffering unjustly".

And I thank you very much for saying so.


World War II had not been about the Jews. Your forefathers decided that they are not "the world police" who should bring the Nazis values, those did not want to have, have not asked for and would not be willing to share. But in 1945 the U.S. army freed Nazi Concentration Camps.

AND THEN Your forefathers stayed in Germany, they protected the Germans against themselves.

Your forefathers believed in the universal possibility and desirability of human freedom - and they helped the Germans back to their way sharing these values. And I think they did a good job there.

The same is in Iraq.

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If the U.S. would leave now and let the people in Iraq unprotected, for sure the Iraqi people would fall back to those things they are used to during the Saddam aera. They did so after the first Iraq war.

The Iraqi people need your help to recognize certain basic moral truths.
Let them not alone.



[edit on 31-12-2005 by Riwka]

Seekerof give it a rest. I thought this would have been an interesting thread before you became ridiculously pedantic.

You sound like a kid who never got the toy you wanted at Christmas.

No way below top secret button? Is there a suggestions box?

It was interesting Um_Gazz before the arguments, next time I think you should just ignore comments like seekerof's.

This thread is a joke.

Originally posted by Snoopdopey
Is there a suggestions box?

Yes, there is. Just click here

That would be a far more wise decision than your unpolite personal attacks to seekerof, I think.

Originally posted by Riwka
The Iraqi people need your help to recognize certain basic moral truths.
Let them not alone.

...and "You" Need the Iraqi Oil Reserves, to maintain the Economic World Superiority.

Basic Moral Truths - go seek them in Bush Administration.

Originally posted by marg6043
I am as feed up with what is going on in my nation
and with the mess in Iraq ...

Like what?

Exactly what mess in this nation with Iraq, what mess in Iraq?
John Stewart looooooooves to call it mess-o-potamia
but take an honest look at Iraq today compared with
5 years ago.

Saddam the butcher is gone. The Iraqis are no longer
mass murdered by the hundreds of thousands. They
are no longer mass raped in Saddam's rape rooms.
The billions in $$$ that Saddam was stealing from the
Iraqis and buying the UN with are now going to the
Iraqis where it belongs. The olympians are no longer
tortured by Saddams son. The neighbors of Saddam
are no longer in fear that he will initiate war and try
to take them over - which would in turn cause hundreds
of thousands more dead and maimed. Iraq has had
it's first free elections in ~ 40 years. That's HUGE!

Yes it takes some sacrifice. Yes it's a sad that it does.
But know what?? It's necessary. Surgery to remove the
cancer in Iraq is painful, but that's what it takes to
make the country healthy.

Cut and run would make all the advances disapear.
Cut and run would make all the sacrifices worthless.
Cut and run would embolden the terrorists to hit us harder.
Cut and run would be a HUGE mistake - as history has shown.

AND not that it matters - I'm an Army Veteran. My husband
is an Air Force Veteran. My father and father-in-law are Army
Veterans and my brother is still in the Air Force and has orders
for Iraq for this springtime (or so ~ depends on the situation).




[edit on 12/31/2005 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by Souljah
...and "You" Need the Iraqi Oil Reserves, to maintain
the Economic World Superiority.

Oh gawd ... the old 'war for oil' thing? Even Bill Clinton went on
TV and said that was absolutely not true. geeeeeeze!

If America wanted to take over oil fields we would have kept
the ones in Kuwait 15 years ago when we liberated them.
Obviously we didn't.

If America wanted to take over oil fields we would go down to
Venezuela and take them. They are much closer, much easier
to get to and take over, and there aren't hoards of Muslims
to have to deal with both culturally and militarily.

We have the power to take over any oil fields we want, and
to keep them. We haven't done that and so far we aren't.
And we have ANWR which would break us free of middle east
oil dependency for up to 25 years (some estimates say 25 years).
We could drill there, have tons of oil, and not have to deal with anyone.
So again .. we have no need to take over anyone else and keep
oil supplies.

Originally posted by Souljah
...and "You" Need the Iraqi Oil Reserves, to maintain the Economic World Superiority.

BS.

Souljah , mabye you'd like to see an easier more efficient way for the US and the UK to get the oil supplies?

Basic Moral Truths - go seek them in Bush Administration.

Truths?
Who's truth?

Originally posted by FlyersFan
If America wanted to take over oil fields we would go down to
Venezuela and take them. They are much closer, much easier
to get to and take over, and there aren't hoards of Muslims
to have to deal with both culturally and militarily.

Aha! You forge that Iraq has the Second Largest Oil Reserves!

Still, it was not about Oil - it was more about how Saddam wanted to SELL this Oil. When He started to talk about selling it in Petro-Euros, then the US Military/Corporate Conglomerate stopped breathing for a second and decided to Invade Iraq.

Until then, Saddam was a BIG US Ally - you forget to mention that!

Just like Saudi Arabia is Today - I wonder how long will it take for US to "Liberate" the Suadi's, for they too live in a Represive Islamic Society.

We have the power to take over any oil fields we want, and
to keep them.

Well, at least we agree on some parts of your Post.

115% True!

And a Happy New Year!

[edit on 31/12/05 by Souljah]

Originally posted by Souljah
it was more about how Saddam wanted to SELL this Oil.

He was illegally selling it to Jordan for many years. Illegally
selling it to Syria for many years. Illegally selling it to certain
people in England, France, Germany, Russia, for many years.
He was illegally using Oil for Food money to buy the UN for
many years. There wasn't anything 'sudden' about Saddam's
illegal oil selling.

Until then, Saddam was a BIG US Ally - you forget to mention that!

Naaaaaaaah. He hadn't been for at least 15 years prior to
Gulf War II. We kicked him out of Kuwait.... you forget to
mention that.

the Suadi's, for they too live in a Represive Islamic Society.

Yes they do. Glad you can see that. Very repressive.
I thank God every day that I'm not living under a
Muslim controlled, anti-woman, government.

Originally posted by Souljah
Aha! You forge that Iraq has the Second Largest Oil Reserves!

That doesn't matter. We already had them back in 1991.
We liberated Kuwait and could have kept the Kuwaiti oil
fields as well as all the fields in Southern Iraq. We didn't.
We are strong enough that we easily could have. But we didn't.