Bring the Boys Back Home

After some communications with my nephew, I am convinced it is time. Time for them to come home. Job done?

Not really, but I truly believe that the US presence there is now only creating more bad than good. Iraq will have to find her own way, sooner or later. Why wait?

Some will argue the war is not over, we have a lot to do there. I ask those who will say this. Why?

What have we to gain by continued occupation?

Do we need more reports of death or attacks?

Iraq... a better place today?

Is it worth one more unwanted US sacrifice?

What if the next was your own, or someone you know?

Despite the media claims, the United States military presence is not wanted in Iraq, nor is it needed. Iraq can rise or fall on its own. With or without us.

The Middle East is fuel waiting for a spark, and we are a good ignition source. The longer we are there, the more we feed the enemies against us, against western culture. They use our presence as propaganda, and as justification for their horrendous attacks against all.

I ask, is it worth it?

How many young men’s deaths will it take? ... what is the break point? .. What is the end game?

We have taken a collective shat on the Middle East, and are daring them to retaliate.

They will, they are, and we are targets.

A perceived “Christian” force of occupation in a Muslim world is a recipe for destruction and war. Perhaps as designed by those who brought us September 11, 2001.

One more letter, one more day in Iraq. The next may tell me that my nephew has been hurt or worse... and for what?

There is not one grain of sand in the Middle East worth even one more American life.

We can change the world, but we will not do it by force, unless change means starting over after the annihilation of hundreds of millions.

Bring our troops home, devise a realistic plan for the future, or reap what you sew.

Forgive me and my pathetic rant here, I was only following orders.

Originally posted by UM_Gazz
The Middle East is fuel waiting for a spark, and we are a good ignition source.

A perceived “Christian” force of occupation in a Muslim world is a recipe for destruction and war. Perhaps as designed by those who brought us September 11, 2001.

Wow! You know I think you hit it dead on here. There are many problems in the world. Many like the genocide in Sudan and the nuclear saber rattling in N. Korea look like more important issues. Yet there we are in the middle of the Middle East. Israel has nuclear weapons. Iran may have some and is working on getting more. Why have we placed ourselves right in the middle of this? Why did the terrorist strike the United States instead of Israel? Israel wouldn't have been able to invade Afghanistan or conquer Iraq.

Fuel and spark, destruction and war. Someone's playing with nuclear matches and it's not going to be pretty. The United States is dancing when the puppet strings move along with everyone else.

(Sorry your nephew is mixed up in this.)

[edit on 28-12-2005 by dbates]

Originally posted by UM_Gazz
Why wait?

Pretty self-evident why.

Some will argue the war is not over, we have a lot to do there. I ask those who will say this. Why?

Again, self-evident and ad nauseum x 10.

What have we to gain by continued occupation?

The further stabilization of Iraq and the Iraqi government till they are ready to carry the full security load themselves?

Do we need more reports of death or attacks?

If everyone, and I mean everyone, thought like this, there would be no wars. Defeatism 101: cut and run once casualties are taken.

Iraq... a better place today?

Catch 22 question?
You ask something that is not objectively looked at and discussed, but subjectively argued and debated.

Is it worth one more unwanted US sacrifice?

A redundant question, being you already asked this in another form two quotes above when you asked: "Do we need more reports of death...?"

What if the next was your own, or someone you know?

Already has been.
Does not change my view or perceptions on this war or when the US and Coalition should initiate large scale troop drawdowns or withdrawals from Iraq.

Despite the media claims, the United States military presence is not wanted in Iraq, nor is it needed. Iraq can rise or fall on its own. With or without us.

First off, your initial mention is humorous. Why? Cause the media does not support this war, and thus, the vast majority of media reports on or from Iraq are negative.
Secondly, might want to read this: Pressure to Withdraw US Troops Lies at Home, Not Iraq
Thirdly, your mention of leaving Iraq hanging to "rise and fall on its own" at this juncture in time is very reminiscent of the cut and run policy advocated in Vietnam. How ironic.

The Middle East is fuel waiting for a spark, and we are a good ignition source. The longer we are there, the more we feed the enemies against us, against western culture. They use our presence as propaganda, and as justification for their horrendous attacks against all.

I ask, is it worth it?

Whether the US and/or Western Coalition is in or not in Iraq or the Middle East, the threat of Westernization of the Arab world has LONG fostered and aided those who would be our enemies or see the West as enemies. Propaganda is simply a tool used like match to paper that has again, LONG been utilized to justify acts of terrorism and justified and unjustified warfare. Matters not whether 'we' are there now or not.

How many young men’s deaths will it take?

Again, redundant question x 2.

... what is the break point? .. What is the end game?

There are two scenerios to this so-called end game:
One, the US and Coalition stay till the Iraqi government says that they can take over all security responsibilities and concerns.
Two, US and Coalition troops are forced to withdraw because the media and politicians adopted a cut and run policy.

We have taken a collective shat on the Middle East, and are daring them to retaliate.

Thats your opinion, correct?

They will, they are, and we are targets.

There is a cause and effect for anything that we collectively do in life, as there are for what we do as individuals.

A perceived “Christian” force of occupation in a Muslim world is a recipe for destruction and war.

I am sure that many politicians on both sides during the Crusades and counter-Jihads of the Middle Ages thought the samething. Furthermore, the same could be said for the Muslim occupation of European lands. So IMHO, your point is a non-point.

One more letter, one more day in Iraq. The next may tell me that my nephew has been hurt or worse... and for what?

Ask him, maybe?
I have a cousin, a nephew, a brother-in-law, and a number of old military buddies serving in Iraq and Afghanistan. Yep, we worry for their safty, as well, but you certainly do not see me, nor anyone else on this board that has family and friends over in Iraq or Afghanistan, using this board as an activism mechanism...

There is not one grain of sand in the Middle East worth even one more American life.

Again, your opinion, correct?

We can change the world, but we will not do it by force, unless change means starting over after the annihilation of hundreds of millions.

Who says anyone is trying to change the world?
There is change in Iraq and Afghanistan though.

Bring our troops home, devise a realistic plan for the future, or reap what you sew.

Let me get this straight: bring the troops home then devise a plan for the furture? Future of what, Iraq? How about devise a plan then bring the troops home? In such an event, the Iraqi government security needs and concerns will factor into any type future planning of troop drawdowns and/or withdrawals.

Forgive me and my pathetic rant here, I was only following orders.

Whose orders?
Since when has ATS sanctioned political activism or become an activism mechanism?
Will ATS allow various groups of activists to use this board for political activism, because if so, I am quite sure that space can be sold to a number of activist groups and organizations who would jump at the chance to see ATS become nothing but a political activism tool.







seekerof

[edit on 28-12-2005 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by Seekerof
Since when has ATS sanctioned political activism or become a activism mechanism?
Will ATS allow various groups of activists to use this board for political activism, because if so, I am quite sure that space can be sold to a number of activist groups and organizations who would jump at the chance to see ATS become nothing but a politcal activism tool.

There is no activism here Seekerof.

Just some questions and my own thoughts and opinions.

Perhaps if you read what I have you may know why... But with you like so many the human factor escapes you, and voids all other forms of original thinking.

If the war was personal, maybe you'd see what I mean.

I am staff, I am a moderator... That does not exclude me from having an opinion.

Just like you and everyone.. we all have one.

None of us are going to win any "war" with words alone.

For now it seems that is all you and I have!


UM_Gazz

[edit on 30-12-2005 by UM_Gazz]

Originally posted by UM_Gazz
There is no activisim here Seekerof.

Just some questions and my own thoughts and opinions.

Though you are rightly entitled to your opinion, who am I to to give counter-opinon or call it for what it is?
I will call you on the activism bit though, being it appears to be becoming a monthly thing. I like how the notion of activism is guised as opinion: Only One

Perhaps if you read what I have you may know why... But with you like so many the human factor escapes you, and voids all other forms of original thinking.

I read all of what you have said, and have said in the past, likewise responded to most of your assertions. Your attempt to discredit me are pointless rhetoric.

If the war was personal, maybe you'd see what I mean.

Personal? Apparently, you do not read what I have mentioned in this thread and in others?

I am staff, I am a moderator... That does not exclude me from having an opinion.

Being quite aware of that particular thread, unfortunately, it does not define political self-activism from self-opinion.


At any rate, I gave my opinion by claiming now what I have in the past concerning these type RANT threads by you. Nothing personal, though it does seem I have personally offended you. My apologies, but as you gave your opinion, I gave mine in return.







seekerof

[edit on 28-12-2005 by Seekerof]

Yes, but what or whos orders were you following by making this post here. As you did state, you were just following orders. Although I have no say in this matter in my opinion this belongs on PTS simply because of the political nature of the opinions being stated.

After some communications with my nephew, I am convinced it is time. Time for them to come home. Job done?

Why do I get the distinct feeling that your conversation with your nephew had nothing to do with your decision?
Just wandering.

I agree, bring the boys and girls home, you can't help people who don't want to be helped and those who arn't prepared to help themselves.

We should have only 2 policy's with the middle east in my humble opinion ...

1/ Pre-emptive strikes against the development of WMD's

2/ Replace Oil asap, make the crap obsolete, invest every spare dollar in making zero emission/renewable energy motorcars.

There's the recipe for World peace.

Amen.

There is no way that the US can leave Iraq yet, if nothing else than under the principle of 'you break it, you buy it'. The US invaded iraq, destroyed its government, and now must remain there until a stable state and a stable civil society are formed. It has not choice, and if it take 50 years, the US is simply going to have to stay. And it might very well take 50 years. The US is still in kosovo, which is far smaller and doesn't have the same sort of insurgency in it (tho thats debateable of course), from the 90's.
It doesn't matter if its 'worth it', the US invaded and destroyed the iraqi government, it has no option but to remain there. As far as it causing more trouble, throughout history, other peoples have invaded and occupied other nations. IOW, having christians occupying a muslim country isn't going to start wwiii, because these things have happened before, and allways the occupied people submit and relent to the occupiers. It might take a long time, but eventually it happens. Might wins out, regardless of whether its right or not. The US occupying Iraq and the insurgents being unable to throw the US out means that the jihadis can't win the war, and at best they can suffer terrible percentages of losses while the US Military suffers from a causualty rate lower than that of americans at home.

Thank you again, UM_Gazz, for your thought provoking post.

Originally posted by dbates

Originally posted by UM_Gazz
The Middle East is fuel waiting for a spark, and we are a good ignition source.

A perceived “Christian” force of occupation in a Muslim world is a recipe for destruction and war. Perhaps as designed by those who brought us September 11, 2001.

Wow! You know I think you hit it dead on here.

I couldn't agree more. These two phrases were particularly impactful to me as well.

I also am sorry about your nephew's involvement. I have recently learned that my nephew will NOT be going back and I'm thrilled. The more I see and hear from the actual soldiers, the more I'm convinced that it's not only those who lose their lives and limbs that suffer. Every soldier who has been to Iraq suffers, and unfortunately, some much more than others.

And as far as I'm concerned, I welcome your pleas to get people to think rationally about this war. You can write them every week or every day if you like. We, especially here on ATS, need to THINK! It's dangerous and worthless to just accept the status quo, without questioning our assumptions and exploring the worth and value of continuing what we're doing over there.

Inane repitition of talking points (Iraq stabilization, cut-n-run, etc) does nothing to encourage the mind to stretch and open. These ideas need to be evaluated to see if they're still valid.

Originally posted by Seekerof
but you certainly do not see me, nor anyone else on this board that has family and friends over in Iraq or Afghanistan, using this board as an activism mechanism...

I totally disagree. Pro-war activism is rampant on this board. That goes both ways. Just because it's contrary to your opinion, doesn't necessarily categorize it as 'activism'. Activism has 2 sides. One for, one against. And the pro-war activists use this board to push their agenda every day, not just once a month.

Nygdan, I respect you and understand the position of "you break it, you buy it". I really do. I think we owe Iraq SOMETHING in the way of reparations, but I think that our continued presence is only continuing to damage what we 'broke'. I don't advocate the 'cut and run' approach, but, IMO, we need to physically remove our troops from the area to stop that segment of agitation and then go from there.

It's like a bull in a china shop. The first thing you do is get the bull out THEN clean up the mess. Attempting to clean up the broken china while the bull is still wandering around in there is just counter productive...

Our presence there doesn't have a hope of creating a stable, civil society. How can health triumph, when the cause of the 'disease' insists on remaining? If we remove the cause of the disease, only then can real healing begin. In the meantime, we only further agitate the illness that is eating away at Iraq.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
. I think we owe Iraq SOMETHING in the way of reparations

I have to disagree. If anything, Iraq owes the United States repartations, for the Gulf War and the possibly the current Iraq War.

, but I think that our continued presence is only continuing to damage what we 'broke'. I don't advocate the 'cut and run' approach, but, IMO, we need to physically remove our troops from the area to stop that segment of agitation and then go from there.
If the troops are moved to another location in the region, then that woudl be so they can move back in for specific 'missions' or offensives. IOW, no change.
Look at the Fallujan Episode. The place was a staging area for insurgents. The US came in, scared them off and killed a lot of them, withdrew while still being able to re-deploy should the need arise, and then the place fell back into being an insurgent strong hold. Falluja can be see, in this was, as a microcosm for the country.
If the US leaves, the insurgents will grow stronger and bolder.
These guys are not patriots trying to preserve the liberty of their motherland. They are trying to re-establish the baath party with Hussein at its head, or trying to install an islamic "republic".
At best, if the US withdraws, the country convulses into sectartian internicene warfare. At best. At worst; genocide, rape, invasion, destruction.

The first thing you do is get the bull out THEN clean up the mess.

Unfortunately the bull is the only one that wants to clean the shop up and have it open for business.

Our presence there doesn't have a hope of creating a stable, civil society. How can health triumph, when the cause of the 'disease' insists on remaining?

The United States is not the cause of the problems in Iraq. The insurgency are not patriots rising up to defeat an enemy. They are provacateurs trying to establish their own dictatorship, taking advantage of a power vaccuum now that sadam is gone. If the US leaves, then there will be nothing to stop them from growing in power and making that place an actual quagmire.
If you do not want rape squads, genocide, and actual war in that region, then the US has to stay. The US remaining, I should be clear, is a necessary cause for that, but hardly sufficient. It will take more than that alone.

Originally posted by Nygdan
If the troops are moved to another location in the region, then that woudl be so they can move back in for specific 'missions' or offensives. IOW, no change.

Yes, I didn't mean they should remain in the area, I meant I think they should be removed and brought back home.

If the US leaves, the insurgents will grow stronger and bolder.

I won't quote the rest of your post, but in response to it, these positions you hold are not hard and fast fact or truth. There are (at least) 2 opinions on all the issues you commented on and we pretty much believe exactly the opposite about them.

We can't know for sure what would happen or haw bad the civil situation would be in Iraq if we withdrew without withdrawing and seeing what happens.

I happen to think it would be better overall if we withdrew than to continue beating our heads against a brick terrorist. Sure, there would be an initial blow up to see who would rule, but then I think it would settle down into a sovereign situation again.

But I have no more proof than you do of your opinions. And sadly, I think we'll never know.

Why THE US all the time?
I'm sorry, but i have had my son serve over there for six months. My long time friend has had three sons serve over there.
The fact is, they all serve in the British Army. They have said that they were welcomed by the majority of Iraqi's. Admittedly they were based in the South, but have still had a lot to contend with.

Its not just the US that is out there, nor is it just the US who have suffered casualties. I know they have suffered the most, thats because they probably have the most troops out there.

I have listened to my son and my friends sons. They all think that this War has been a waste of time, but it was orchestrated by the US leader. He got the British leader to back him, which led to other countries becoming involved.

I was for this War for all the right reasons, but i have to admit that i have become very disillusioned with it all. There can be no gain, other than US gain for the oil that is available in the Gulf.

Nothing more can be gained for occupying Iraq in my opinion, but the US cannot pull out for fear of loosing credibility to the rest of the World. The rest of the World already knows this, but withdrawing would only cement the fact.

The War has been fought by, not just the US, but a lot of other countries, which,when put together are comonly known as THE COALITION.

As for bringing them home, and i mean all the coalition, then i have to agree with that statement. I do not want my son out there again. Nor anyone elses sons/daughters for the sake of the amount of oil it has to offer. It is just not worth it to the people like you and me. Ask those that have lost loved ones how much it was worth.

I'm going to end here with just one fact....
ITS NOT JUST THE US! Please remember that fact..............

[edit on 29-12-2005 by Bikereddie]

Originally posted by Bikereddie
Why THE US all the time?

Eddie, I speak only for myself, but when I speak of the US in Iraq, I do so because I am from the US. I mean absulutely NO disrespect to the other countries who are there. I hope you (and they) know that.

I'm sure if an Italian was speaking and he said "our presence in Iraq", he would be speaking of Italy's presence there.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Eddie, I speak only for myself

I understand what you are saying BH, and totaly agree with it, but my posting was not aimed at anyone in general. Forgive me if this was the way that it read.
I did not intend to aim any remarks towards anyone. I just wanted to state a fact ,that i, in all honesty, needed to make apparent to readers of this thread.

My last line was to emphasize the fact that there is a Coalition out there.

That's right, bring all the Coallition forces home along with all the refugees that this war will create. Just like Viet Nam. We can all live as one big multicultural family.

I love Viet Namese food.

I wonder what Iraqi food will taste like.

Coming to a neighborhood near you KOOS KOOS Abduls; all credit cards accepted.

Originally posted by Nygdan
If you do not want rape squads, genocide, and actual war in that region, then the US has to stay.

That ALL is Happening Right Now.

But you are Too Blind or too Ignorant to see it.

And the US is THERE.

[edit on 29/12/05 by Souljah]

Originally posted by UM_Gazz
Iraq will have to find her own way, sooner or later. Why wait?

Because their military and police aren't done being trained.

BTW - the title of this says 'bring the boys back home'.
They aren't 'boys'. They are grown men and women,
not children.

What have we to gain by continued occupation?

Stability and strengthening of Iraq for the day that we can leave.

Do we need more reports of death or attacks?

That comes with mop up. After WWII in Germany it took at least
four years to mop up and get rid of the Werewolves (their version
of insurgents). It takes time and perseverence to finish a job.

Iraq... a better place today?

Yes of course it is. Comeon. Saddam is gone. The mass murder and
mass rapes are done. The $$$ that Saddam was stealing from the
Iraqis and buying off UN officials is now going to the Iraqis as it was
supposed to. They have had their first FREE elections in ~ 40 years.
and so on .. and so on...

What if the next was your own, or someone you know?

Everyone who is in the US military volunteered. We were all
grown ups when we did. We all knew the risks and the rewards.
Those who are in now are there because they volunteered to
be. If they die in the line of duty it is sad, but it was their choice
to serve this country.

the United States military presence is not wanted
in Iraq, nor is it needed.

Got something to back that up with? Many of the blogs out of
Iraq say just the opposite. The people there understand that
America and the Coalition need to stay to finish the job. They
would like them to go home as soon as possible, but they
understand the need for them to be there. As far as not being
needed???? yeah, right. If America were to walk off the job
now, the giant sucking sound would be heard all the way to
Tehran and the killing fields ala Vietnam would happen all
over again, but this time in the sands of Iraq.

thepoliticalteen.net...

They use our presence as propaganda, and as
justification for their horrendous attacks against all.

Our enemies need no 'justification'. If we were there or not
they'd still be training to kill us and succeeding in terrorist
attacks all around the world. To say that terrorists hate us
because we are there ... well ... they hate us no matter what.

I ask, is it worth it?

Yes.

Bring our troops home, devise a realistic plan for the future,
or reap what you sew.

The troops will come home as time goes by and the Iraqis can take
over security in their country. Impatience and 'cut and run' would
make all sacrifices and advancements achieved to be worthless.

As far as 'reap what you sew' .. I certainly hope so. We have
sewn the seeds of freedom, the seeds of democracy, the seeds
of hope.



[edit on 12/29/2005 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I totally disagree. Pro-war activism is rampant on this board. That goes both ways. Just because it's contrary to your opinion, doesn't necessarily categorize it as 'activism'. Activism has 2 sides. One for, one against. And the pro-war activists use this board to push their agenda every day, not just once a month.

I fully will respect your right to disagree, but will also implore you to re-read what I said? [emphasis added by me]

Originally posted by Seekerof
...but you certainly do not see me, nor anyone else on this board that has family and friends over in Iraq or Afghanistan, using this board as an activism mechanism...

I understand that some confuse activism with opinion and vice versa, but the redundancy of this topic, as pointed out and linked by me to another like topic [which more could have been pointed out], shows a trend, and personally, I saw and see it for what it is, despite the thought provoking inclinations such may give off: It is not opinion but blantant activism. Likewise, I don't recall Murtha and others political pundits [not counting C. Sheehan here] using their family and friends as a activism launch pads for demanding the immediate withdrawal of US troops from Iraq, you? If one is going to participate in activism, then why use family and friends as a crutch or activism launch pad? It does not sell your case anymore. Further, activism should be restricted to where it belongs: political forum or PTS.

I have openly mentioned it before and I will mention it again, this forum--the War of Terrorism--is becoming nothing more than a political and activism forum, but yet, ATS has been and currently is trying to subdue and shift this type discussion to where it rightly belongs, which should be PTS. Remember the recent post made by one of the three Amigos, Springer, and what was mentioned?

This forum is NOT a political debate forum. It is NOT a place for anyone to attempt to get their party's agenda pushed forward.

As of right now the Moderators are under orders to STRICTLY ENFORCE the new "Code of Ethical Posting" outlined in the above captioned thread.

This forum IS for the DISCUSSION of the war on terror, the North Korean/Iran situation, the war in Iraq from a Conspiratorial perspective.

Naturally politics plays a huge roll in warfare and it's expected to come up in these conversations, that's FINE what will NOT be tolerated are one liner snipes (as illustrated in the above captioned post), threads with no other purpose than to bait another member(s) into a flame war, or the VERY TIRED party arguments and Liberal versus Conservative GARBAGE.

If you read your post and it isn't ON TOPIC don't post it. If you start a new thread and it doesn't do anything but spew YOUR political agenda/stance or criticize the political agenda/stance to which you are opposed DON'T post it.

Effective IMMEDIATELY

Personally, if, as you have pointed out, political agenda activism does occur in this forum, then it should be rightly and promptly moved to the proper political forum within PTS, not be allowed to stay and/or permeate within the WOT forum. But when activism is allowed/permitted in this forum and not strictly deterred evenly and fairly, then an example is set, and further stands starkly and directly in opposition to what was laid out by Springer in the above linked stick'd WOT thread, IMHO.






seekerof

[edit on 29-12-2005 by Seekerof]

If you do not want rape squads, genocide, and actual war in that region, then the US has to stay.

Do you have any proof that these rape squads actually exist??

I have to disagree. If anything, Iraq owes the United States repartations, for the Gulf War and the possibly the current Iraq War.

For the former maybe, but explain the logic of that applying to the latter??

Sorry for the double post. New here


[edit on 29-12-2005 by SE420]