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Holiday Skirmish: Kenshiro2012 V JBurns

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posted on Dec, 23 2005 @ 01:47 PM
The topic for this debate is "The Grinch and Ebenezeer Scrooge are, despite what Adam Sandler says, Jewish."

Kenshiro2012 will be arguing for this proposition and will open the debate.
JBurns will argue against this proposition.

Each debater will have one opening statement each. This will be followed by two (2) alternating replies each. There will then be one closing statement each.

No post will be longer than 800 words and in the case of the closing statement no longer than 500 words. In the event of a debater posting more than the stated word limit then the excess words will be deleted by me from the bottom. Credits or references at the bottom do not count towards the word total.

Editing is Strictly forbidden. This means any editing, for any reason. Any edited posts will be completely deleted.

Excluding both the opening and closing statements only one image may be included in each post. No more than 5 references can be included at the bottom of each post. Opening and closing statements must not contain any images, and must have no more than 3 references.

Responses should be made within 24 hours, with allowances for the holidays. Please don't press the time limit, as these are timely

Judging will be done by an anonymous panel of judges. Results will be posted by me as soon as a majority is reached.

This debate is now open, good luck to both of you.

posted on Dec, 24 2005 @ 09:29 AM
"The Grinch and Ebenezer Scrooge are, despite what Adam Sander says, Jewish."
First, let me thank both Amorymeltzer and Nygdan for allowing this opportunity to participate once again in this holiday debate. It allows me to once again face my honorable opponent from the earlier series of debates, the great word warrior JBurns. Best of luck and May the best man win!

I have the easy side of this argument. Think about it, just how hard will it be to show that both Mr. Scrooge as well as Mr. Grinch must have been Jewish? Let’s see, they both hated Christmas, They both hated laughter, they both hated songs of rejoice. All either character was interested in was their own self appeasement! Mr. Scrooge who coveted gold to the point that he refused to even allow his poor slave, um I mean his employee Mr. Cratchit, to even add a lump of coal to the fire in order to warm himself. By denying Cratchit this, he saved himself the cost of the coal and then turns around and docks Cratchit’s wages for not performing his duties. Simply brilliant!
As for Mr. Grinch, ah, the icon of icons! His heart was two sizes too small! Who’s head starts a pounding when the Who’s living in Whoville miles away start singing Christmas carols Then as icing on the cake, Mr. Grinch comes up with a dastardly plan to steal all of the presents food and the ornaments from the Who’s so that they would have nothing to celebrate.
Both of these fictional characters have no belief in Christmas, and do not want others to celebrate this holiday. As per the Torah, Jesus is only a false prophet, so no one should celebrate a false prophet’s birth. Mr. Scrooge and Mr. Grinch are only out to save others from worshiping false prophets so that when the real prophet arrives, everyone will be ready for him!
For those who may not be familiar with the song that gives birth to the topic of this debate, I offer the link below which will bring you to lyrics of the song.
Merry Christmas! Happy Hanukkah!

Adam Sandler's Hanukkah Song

posted on Dec, 24 2005 @ 10:10 AM
Kenshiro, quite an honor to be debating on such a topic with you.
Best of luck buddy! Believe me, I was quite happy when I realized you and I would have another chance at it
. If for some reason, you would feel offended by anything I say, I'd just like to appologize in advance, as that is not the intention. As I can allready tell, this will be a very interesting debate, from your first post, which is very well thought out.

While I understand your points quite well, the fact that someone hates Christmas doesn't necessarily mean that they are Jewish. Events occuring in their life may affect their overall enjoyment of a holiday, such as Christmas. As far as the laughter goes, several of my close friends are in fact Jewish, and they sometimes laugh more than I do (and believe me, I laugh alot). Jews don't like songs of praise? What about Judah's Song of Praise, and the dreidl song?

Mr. Scrooge was alot a businessman, and as you know, business and ethics don't usually go together (sorry Springer!
). Does Scrooge not end up a kind, and caring person by the end of this story?

Oh yes, Mr. Grinch, quite the proverbial bug to Christmas. Grinch had no heart or kindness whatsoever. However, as far as him being Jewish, I noticed he didn't have a menorah visible anywhere, infact, his house was completely devoid of decorations. Grinch wanted to steal Christmas, in my opinion, just for the suffering of the who's.

Looking forward to your next post.

posted on Dec, 27 2005 @ 05:18 PM
Kenshiro2012 has forfeited his response. JBurns, please proceed.

posted on Dec, 28 2005 @ 10:09 AM
In all of the examples of the movies including Mr. Grinch, or Mr. Scrooge, never once was there a reference to them being Jewish. If I recall correctly, does not the Grinch actually stop all of the Christmas stuff from plummeting off the side of his mountain, and takes them all bac kto whoville? I believe that his heart also grew several sizes (3, if I'm not mistaken). Surely, he wouldn't not have been celbrating with the who's if he had been Hebrew.

Scrooge raises Bob's salary, and even sit's down with his family over a bowl of Christmas punch. And I quote from, "Scrooge keeps Christmas, and he keeps it well."

I believe that neither the Grinch or Scrooge were Jewish, because they were both eventually "celebrating" Christmas, at least to some extent.

posted on Dec, 28 2005 @ 05:45 PM
Sorry for the delayed response, I was out on the reservation hunting with some old friends and so I was no where near anything that even remotely resembled high tech such as computers 

Yes, JBurns, there is no mention of either Mr. Scrooge’s or Mr. Grinch’s hereditary roots in the stories. So you are correct on that point. But let’s take a look at the authors of these stories.
First you have Charles Dickens was an evangelical Christian who while editor of Bentley's Miscellany, ignored numerous anti-Semitic articles which were published. In many of Mr. Dickens’ writings, it is well believes that the antagonist is of Jewish descent. Along with Mr. Scrooge another fine example of his anti semantic viewpoint would be the character of Fagin from Oliver Twist. Notice that much of Dickens’ early life seems to have been brought upon his family due to financial troubles that they (and he) experienced. Common stereotyping of the Jewish was then as is it today, that the Jewish were the ones in control of monies and power.

Now let’s take a look at the creator of the Grinch, Theodor Seuss Geisel, Dr. Seuss attended Oxford University in England which has been noted for its somewhat anti-Semitic viewpoint. An example of which can still be seen today with a recent (2004) decision to allow David Irving to speak there. This outlook may well have shaped Dr. Seuss’s anti- Semitic slant to his works. We must remember also that Theodor Seuss Geisel is not famous for only his children’s books but also for his political cartoons that were published PM magazine, a liberal publication. Here is an example.

So, for him to have based the Grinch character on a Jewish person is by no stretch of the imagination difficult to believe.

As for Mr. Scrooge giving Mr. Cratchit a raise (actually a partnership) was only after the visitations that Scrooge had of the three ghosts of Christmas had convinced him that if he did not turn around and change his ways, he, Mr. Scrooge would suffer a fate worse than that of his ex-partner Bob Marley. And if you go by Forbes recent listings Mr. Scrooge later recanted on his benevolent outlook and became the miser that he became so well known for 

Mr. Grinch only changed his tune after discovering that after all his hard work stealing the gifts, the decorations, the food, the Whos down in Whosville still were heard singing their Christmas joy. He then experienced an epiphany that revealed the true meaning of the Christmas season which is Peace on Earth and Good will to Men. Only then did the Grinch struggle to save the Christmas gifts to return them to the Whos. You will though notice that by the Grinch doing this, he then becomes the savior of Christmas for the Whos, thus giving the attention and adoration which he was really seeking 

Bio of Dickens
Bio #2 of Dickens
Bio# 3 Dickens
Oxford University David Irving
Forbe Scrooge

posted on Jan, 2 2006 @ 11:47 AM
After a delay, JBurns forfeits his response. Kenshiro will now make his next response.

posted on Jan, 4 2006 @ 03:29 PM
Good afternoon all. I sincerely hope that everyone had a great New Year!
In my second posting on this debate, I went over why the authors of these stories would stylize the characters of Scrooge and the Grinch off of the perceived Jewish personalities. I believe that this proof is very conclusive in demonstrating that indeed, Scrooge as well as the Grinch were indeed of Jewish heritage.
In my first post, I briefly went over various personality traits that these character presented that alluded to their Hebrew backgrounds. I would like to expand on this as well as answer my opponent’s contention that there is no mention that either character being Jewish.
Let us first examine Mr. Scrooge, If you will remember, during his trip down memory lane with the Ghost of Christmas past, he was brought to a Christmas when he still worked for Fezziwig. Fezziwig told his workers that it was time to stop work so that they could have their Christmas party. This plainly demonstrates that Fezziwig was of the Christian faith.
Young Scrooge also had a lady love at this time. Her name was Belle Fezziwig. Now, if Mr. Scrooge was just simply a miser and a money grubber as my opponent contends, why would not Scrooge continue to pursue Belle’s hand in marriage? If he had married Belle, he stood to inherit Fezziwig’s business which looked fairly prosperous at that time. But he does not. Scrooge rejects her. There is a very good explanation for this, if you believe that Scrooge was Jewish. Fundamental Hebrew beliefs would have prohibited him from marrying her since she was not of the Jewish faith. Belle would have had to be converted to the Jewish faith before a union between the two would have been tolerated. Of course, Belle could not have done this due to her Christian faith.
Now, Let us examine Scrooge’s trip with the Ghost of Christmas Present. When Scrooge is taken to Freddie’s home to view the festivities there, you may have noted that in all the various plays and movies of the Christmas Carol, there is a piano in the background. On the piano is a candlestick that is in the shape of the Menorah. The placement of the Menorah in this scene may well be a token acknowledgement of both the faiths in Freddie’s home. The Christian faith which allowed them to celebrate Christ’s birth, as well as the Hebrew faith with the displaying of the Menorah. Freddie’s character as presented in the book and in the plays / movies, show that he is definitely not a Fundamental Hebrew, which would have allowed him to have married outside his faith. This marriage also could very well be the root cause why Scrooge does not approve of Freddie nor of his lifestyle.

Now let us do a quick look at possible Jewish symbolism in “How the Grinch Stole Christmas”. There are not many instances in the cartoon or the book, but there is one that can be construed to showing the Grinch’s heritage. In the cartoon, when they are in the Grinch’s cave, up on a shelf, there is a Menorah that is providing light for the Grinch’s cave.

Yes, there are no words that directly state that either Mr. Scrooge or The Grinch are Jewish. In this both my opponents as well as Adam Sandler are correct. Unfortunately, there is no need for the authors to state this. Both, Dickens as well as Dr. Seuss did not need to. They allow their readers to infer this. One must remember that the authors were writing to the readers of their times. Both Dr. Seuss as well as Dickens have used the Jewish profile to base their antagonist / protagonist characters in their other works. It is not a stretch of the imagination that they used this same formula to create Scrooge and Grinch. Are both the Grinch and Mr. Scrooge Jewish? I say yes.

posted on Jan, 6 2006 @ 04:01 PM
Hello everyone, I appologize for my lack of posting in this debate. I've been having a very rough time (mentally) as far as some medical results are concerned. These have turned out ok, and I thank god for it, and feel like I have a new start in life. In any case, I appologize for the very lengthy delays during the course of this debate.

Kenshiro, you have brought up so many wonderful points, and made this a truely challenging debate. It was quite an honor to meet you in the debate forum once again, and wow...I'm amazed.

I appreciate this opportunity that was given to me by nygden and amory, and would like to thank anyone who has taken the time to read through this most interesting, and humorous debate.

I sincerely wish you the best of luck kenshiro.

posted on Jan, 6 2006 @ 08:07 PM
Your fate rests in the judges' hands now.

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