The very Biased Infomation Being Fed Into Children

dbrandt, yeah, i guess i meant it.. in my 7 yr old understanding of it...


..and looking back now, with all that's been happening with me spiritually in the past couple of years, i ..see the plan for me.. or part of it. .. i see how everything that has happened has made me "me", and if any part of it were different, i wouldn't be the me i am now...

i do't know. maybe the "holy spirit" took root in me then... i've realized how weird "god" is.. in the way things work.. could have taken root then.. and the many years i spent searching for something REAL have been a result of that..
because finally, i atleast know there is something REAL.. there is Truth..
now i'm on the path of understanding it..
even when i rejected the idea of a god, .. i could never fully shake it. deep down, i knew there was something..


i do wonder how different i would be if i were raised in an athiest household...

but dbrandt, i don't know if the "holy spirit" entered me then.. i haven't exactly figured out how i feel about the "holy spirit" reguardless.. or what i think it is, and how it acts in our lives...
i'm not one for taking the bible literally... the meaning/reality of it is much deeper than the ..way it's described. i mean.. i don't know. ..taken literally or not, it has a lot to say... the meaning of the words, or what they represent changes as ones faith and understanding and relationship to the creator grows...

like, i'm reading the same words i read at seven... but my ability to understand them better is changing.... or my ability to understand them in a different way is changing..

..something like that. words elude me..

Originally posted by hollyjo
but dbrandt, i don't know if the "holy spirit" entered me then.. i haven't exactly figured out how i feel about the "holy spirit" reguardless.. or what i think it is, and how it acts in our lives...

Don't let anyone tell you what's going on in yourself just because of what they believe happens because of what they are told. You are doing just fine--because God leads us and we must not hurry things along.

I will tell you, in all honesty of my personal experiences, so that you might understand better and not be led to fool yourself. You haven't yet and so there's no reason to think about things that you don't think have happened.

I was baptized at 8, because I wanted to--and to be truthful, I had absolutely no idea about this holy spirit thing until just a few years ago. I didn't hear anything in the years I went to church about the holy spirit getting inside a person--I think my idea of what the holy spirit was, was more like that white dove that lighted upon Jesus.

And not really getting close to any christians growing up or later on, I didn't get exposed to any ideas about anything that I should be expecting or whatever. I just thought I had done what I was supposed to and didn't worry. Because I had, and I didn't worry about it. I didn't neglect my repentance, though--but all I truly knew to do was love people, listen for God, and not be a hypocrite! My biggest motivation, kind of funny now but it was not a bad aim, when you think about it.

Anyway, I only started to figure out the holy spirit indwelling thing in the midst of it happening to me. It just kind of started to dawn on me, which is hard to believe, considering such a powerful surprise out of the blue is not conducive to thinking, but all I could do was think. And when I realized what was going on, I was overwhelmed! What a crazy thing to happen! And I never even knew such a thing was possible, at all. I mean NO idea! I can't describe it all and shouldn't, I am sure. But it is power, not word, so no amount of saying so makes it so.

It doesn't require anything from us--it plainly says in John that the spirit goes where it wants, and when it wants. I have no doubt that once it comes it stays---but the whole time it is 'hovering' you really don't know yet you kind of feel something--probably what you are experiencing. But when you've passed whatever kind of threshold or whatever, it becomes a part of you and I can tell you one thing that I hope you keep in mind. You will literally be transformed and you will know things are different--if you think maybe so, maybe not, then it hasn't happened. Don't even think about it--I see now how so many are led to believe it happens at water baptism, but reading the accounts of Jesus's baptism and life makes it clear that there is a time period of testing or trial that is to be expected. But better not to expect anything and just remember that you cannot live on bread alone. Don't worry about getting all the answers down pat-- it never happens. But it's all good if we don't try to push it into being.

Originally posted by queenannie38

I was baptized at 8, because I wanted to--and to be truthful, I had absolutely no idea about this holy spirit thing until just a few years ago. I didn't hear anything in the years I went to church about the holy spirit getting inside a person--I think my idea of what the holy spirit was, was more like that white dove that lighted upon Jesus.

What denomination of a church did you get baptized at?

Originally posted by dbrandt
What denomination of a church did you get baptized at?

What does it matter? Not to be smart, but really, what's the difference? Being baptized in the water contained by a baptismal in a building built by hands does not infuse a person by osmosis with the denominational doctrines held in general by the people supporting the need for the building.

A denomination is a division.

1 Corinthians 1:13
Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

But, having said that, I will answer your question. Truth is, it is called 'Central Christian Church' and it is an independent and declares itself to be 'non-denominational' and it's basically the same as it was 29 years ago--just up the way about 4 block from where I live. The preacher, of course, is different, and the current one lives across the street from us.
It's a pretty mild church, if you know what I mean. Good people comprise its membership, which is small, and it was a good place to get my foundation built. My brother-in-law, who died when I was 19 or 20, he was consistently my Sunday school teacher throughout my preteen and teen years. My sister and his sister took turns when I was little. There weren't a whole lot of kids there when I was a kid, but I'm rather thankful for that. As a teen, Marty progressed the class he taught when I moved up in the next age bracket, that is, he moved with me, as my teacher, as I moved up.
He was someone who was a profound effect on me--and I see now that he was the light in that church, as far as humans go, and when he died suddenly, and not there to lead the singing (as he had always done, as well) anymore, it was really empty. It is not why I quit going, because I already felt
not much more was coming, from there, especially when I graduated out of Sunday school, so to speak. He was my Paul. He always taught us from Paul's epistles, in the main. I never knew what the heck was truly meant, but I did now that if Marty felt it was important, then it was. So I listened. And only last year or so did it come to my full realization just how much he had loved me and done for me. And how much words I didn't understand then got into me and guided me in unknown ways. It's profound how God works, mysterious is an understatement, IMO.

Originally posted by queenannie38

Originally posted by dbrandt
What denomination of a church did you get baptized at?

What does it matter?

Different denominations have different ways of looking at salvation. One major one says infant baptism removes sin. No, it doesn't, and that is deceptive. I was wanting to know your background to better understand where you are coming from.

Originally posted by dbrandt
Different denominations have different ways of looking at salvation. One major one says infant baptism removes sin. No, it doesn't, and that is deceptive. I was wanting to know your background to better understand where you are coming from.

I see. Thanks for being interested.

I didn't do it to be 'saved,' primarily, that I remember distinctly. I did it because that's what I understood God wanted me to do, and I had this feeling that I didn't want to disappoint God. I don't think I was ever too worried about hell, though. I can't remember if I was, and I think I would remember. I don't know. I know it was more about being forgiven than about being saved, in my mind.
I am a bookworm with a constantly moving mind--and not being able to get much out of adult sermons and because there was no alternative to adult worship services, instead of coloring or other things, I used to just read my bible. It was a children's NIV, I still have it. Anyway, I knew people were baptized, of course, since I was there...but I don't really recall what the idea might have predominantly been as far as the views. I just knew that what I understood was I was to believe Jesus was the Son of the Living God--raised from the dead was what I thought that meant; and that I was to be baptized
for 'the remission of sins.'
I never really broke the habit of reading my bible--I'd listen to the sermon, but it never seemed to be as informative as the bible. I really can't remember, now, what the doctrines were that were preached about, and as far as Sunday School, it was all about Paul's letters. But not about what most correlate him to, these days--the 'grace' and 'faith' and 'law' stuff. That was something I only encountered here in the last few years on the net.

Truly, I had culture shock when I first started posting on a few christian forums--which I did because I wanted basically bible study but there's not much of that, alone. I could not believe some of the ideas that people have, from going to church, that are not truly scriptural. I can see now, how they came out of the bible, but not naturally revealed, rather they have been wrung out of it, or something. It's a mess.

Anyway, I only started to figure out the holy spirit indwelling thing in the midst of it happening to me. It just kind of started to dawn on me, which is hard to believe, considering such a powerful surprise out of the blue is not conducive to thinking, but all I could do was think. And when I realized what was going on, I was overwhelmed! What a crazy thing to happen! And I never even knew such a thing was possible, at all. I mean NO idea! I can't describe it all and shouldn't, I am sure. But it is power, not word, so no amount of saying so makes it so.

It doesn't require anything from us--it plainly says in John that the spirit goes where it wants, and when it wants. I have no doubt that once it comes it stays---but the whole time it is 'hovering' you really don't know yet you kind of feel something--probably what you are experiencing. But when you've passed whatever kind of threshold or whatever, it becomes a part of you and I can tell you one thing that I hope you keep in mind. You will literally be transformed and you will know things are different--if you think maybe so, maybe not, then it hasn't happened. Don't even think about it--I see now how so many are led to believe it happens at water baptism, but reading the accounts of Jesus's baptism and life makes it clear that there is a time period of testing or trial that is to be expected. But better not to expect anything and just remember that you cannot live on bread alone. Don't worry about getting all the answers down pat-- it never happens. But it's all good if we don't try to push it into being.

'm going to attempt to ..describe something that happened to me june 23, 04.. i've tried explaining it to folks many times, ..and ..i think i usually get my point/experience to make sense, so..we'll see if i can do it here..

i had the worst headache that day..one i had woke up with.. all i wanted was to make it quit...
(and i need to add here that i've been a daily "toker" for several years now.
and at the time, i hadn't smoked anything in two weeks..and i was going for as long as i could go.. however, waking up with that headache, just wanting it to go away, and since nothing else was working, i decided i would smoke a little bit of marijuana to help... this experience happened a couple hours after i'd smoked..and it hadn't helped the head ache at all. )
so i was layin' in bed..with my hands under my back trying to support it (my spine causes my headaches.. i get things out of place, or..rather, i rarely get them into place.. i was tryin to do that...
but i was just layin' there, hands up under my back...
..and wham.. the next thing i knew i was sitting up in bed, crying tears of joy saying over and over.. "I AM. I really AM" ..and i can't tell you now everything those to words meant to me at the time.. between the time i was layin' there, and the time i realized what i was doing...
man..words really don't work for this.. this experience was way beyond words.
but it was like i had been..back to the Source. upon realizing i was sitting up, crying for joy, saying I AM over and over, and being amazed at that, it was like.. i had just known every answer to every question i'd ever asked. i had just before that known everything. all at once. i was encased in light..
talk about Power.. man, there was power in that experience.. that is when the "holy ghost"/"g-d" made it's/his presence known in my life.
since that day, i have never looked back. all i've been interested in doing is knowing "him" ....recognizing him, his work, etc. in my life.

everything i had been exposed to - growing up in church, the time i was away from "g-d" - my research into other religions, new age thought, etc., etc. etc. EVERYTHING works together.. like, for example... lets say there's this christain concept, ..and say i have studied this concept, accept it as being True, but have never FELT it's Truth.. never have had complete understanding of the concept.. then lets say i'd been reading this new age concept.. and through the words used in the new age concept, the christain concept suddenly became real. suddenly made sense in MY life, not just made sense in general. i suddenly had understanding of it, and felt it's Truth. does that make sense?
..howver, without the new age concept, maybe i would have never really understood the other. it's like i have to learn something five different ways before i completely understand, and know it as truth..
..and, with that, i'm not saying the concepts were the same, or would have to be the same.
...my mind is ..a crazy place.. constantly thinking, trying to connect everything with everything else...finding symbolism in anything.. (well..not finding.. i like symbolism just to ..come to me.
..my friend stephen i mentioned earlier.. he's a poet...looks at everything and wonders how he can ..use it symbolically in a poem to reflect his ideas on g-d, or on people, on whatever. .. i'm not like that. i don't look at a streetlight and say..hmm..what could this be symbolic of. however, if lets say...there's a storm...heavy heavy rain where you can't see anything, and lets say i round a corner and see only a lone street light shinning through all that darkness.
..yeah, something symbolic comes to me there...


..i just read over all i've written, and.. i don't know what my point was, or why i feel compelled to share,.. i guess it's just me rambling.
: )

Originally posted by hollyjo
everything i had been exposed to - growing up in church, the time i was away from "g-d" - my research into other religions, new age thought, etc., etc. etc. EVERYTHING works together.. like, for example... lets say there's this christain concept, ..and say i have studied this concept, accept it as being True, but have never FELT it's Truth.. never have had complete understanding of the concept.. then lets say i'd been reading this new age concept.. and through the words used in the new age concept, the christain concept suddenly became real. suddenly made sense in MY life, not just made sense in general. i suddenly had understanding of it, and felt it's Truth. does that make sense?

And how!

I know exactly what you are saying.

Everything. I was thinking 'wow' when I was reading because it was like reading my own thoughts.

..i just read over all i've written, and.. i don't know what my point was,

Who cares what the point was? It was great, anyway.

or why i feel compelled to share,.. i guess it's just me rambling.
: )

I'm so glad you did, truly!

annie, i just wrote out a big u2u to you, then was told i don't have enough points to send it.. hrm.

Ok people this thrad has sidetraked soooo much could we please get back on topic

Originally posted by WERE_ALL_GONA_DIE
Ok people this thrad has sidetraked soooo much could we please get back on topic

OK, should people be allowed to tell kids about their beliefs about the Bible. Yes, if someone like the Osbournes can basically do the same thing, by having a show that alot of kids can watch, that is filled with the F-word 3 times in each sentence then the christian should also be able to promote what they believe is right.

Originally posted by dbrandt
OK, should people be allowed to tell kids about their beliefs about the Bible. Yes, if someone like the Osbournes can basically do the same thing, by having a show that alot of kids can watch, that is filled with the F-word 3 times in each sentence then the christian should also be able to promote what they believe is right.

People should be allowed to share the Christian beliefs with their own children at home. Christian dogma should not be taught in public schools under any circumstances.

What the Osbournes teach their kids is their business. If parents allow their children to watch the Osbournes that is also their business. If you don't want your kids to watch them turn off the TV!!

I don't have kids but if I did I would be very angry if they received any type of religous instruction in a public school.

Keep Jesus out of our schools, thats what churches are for!!

D

Originally posted by apocalypta
People should be allowed to share the Christian beliefs with their own children at home. Christian dogma should not be taught in public schools under any circumstances.


I don't have kids but if I did I would be very angry if they received any type of religous instruction in a public school.

Keep Jesus out of our schools, thats what churches are for!!

D

I thought we were talking about someone's cousin and a book he had. When did schools enter the picture?

True--we don't know where or how the cousin got the booklet. But I'll bet the farm that it was not his own parents. Parents don't usually use booklets, but I'm not counting the possibility out. Not likely, though. And if he got it at church somewhere and it carrying it in his schoolbook it must mean a lot more to him than his cousin here at ATS is aware of. I think that's not a very likely scenario, either--but again, not an impossibility.

29 years ago, God wasn't such a big issue--at school it was not a problem because we had not yet made it one. But a problem isn't a problem until it is created and named. Not to beat a dead horse, but we all know one of this country's foundation bricks is religious freedom--freedom to choose or to omit one's personal way to God.

Our kids don't have that freedom, not because of laws but because of our immature foisting of our own problems in the religious arena.

Forcing them to make choices about spiritual development before their physical development is done is unfair and is not giving them a choice. It is burdening them with things that they don't have to address so young. First you grow up physically. Then the real growing up starts. Not before.

If anyone's defense is to the tune of not wanting them to go to hell--all I can say is that if person puts their trust in God for their own soul, there is no need to think He isn't going to look after our babies. Look in the bible--there are no stories about God and child interactions.

Personally, I'm glad that I was left to my own spiritual pursuits of God by all adults. Even my parents. They did me more good by leaving it to me, rather than weighing it down already.

When kids are leaving the nest, they are going to rebel, in various degrees, against their history. It is not bad, it is part of growing up and becoming an independent personality. God is included in that process. I think God expects us to resist and search and not find or find or whatever. The prodigal son would not be a parable we know if God expected us to start off right.

We should leave kids alone about God--with words and doctrines, et al. The two crucial things that we can and should demonstrate at all times, in order to
give them a good start, is truth in all things (integrity, honesty, etc) and love (generosity, kindness, unselfishness).

Certainly we should never turn Christ or God into the monster who hides under the bed. That is not the way to go. This booklet doesn't do it, but to me, it seems like the next step in a logical progression of an illogical plan.

Originally posted by queenannie38
Forcing them to make choices about spiritual development before their physical development is done is unfair and is not giving them a choice. It is burdening them with things that they don't have to address so young. First you grow up physically.

If anyone's defense is to the tune of not wanting them to go to hell--all I can say is that if person puts their trust in God for their own soul, there is no need to think He isn't going to look after our babies. Look in the bible--there are no stories about God and child interactions.

Personally, I'm glad that I was left to my own spiritual pursuits of God by all adults.

Wow, not telling children about God when they are little. That sheds a whole new light on you.

You question my Bible knowledge and yet the Bible contains Proverbs 22:6
Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

No God and child interaction in the Bible, look at
Mark 10:13
And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them.

10:14
But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

10:15
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

10:16
And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them.

I can't keep track of evrything about what you believe, but your defense for this one will probably be Jesus isn't God. If that is your defense, Jesus is God.

I'm trying to be sensitive on this one. Didn't you have an adult brother-in-law who taught you in Sunday School? I'm sorry he died but your story said you believed what He taught. I can understand losing someone very close to you would make you question God.

Originally posted by dbrandt
Wow, not telling children about God when they are little. That sheds a whole new light on you.

Should have known you'd totally misunderstand my words. :shk: The light that shines on me is the same that shines on you. If things appear different at different times to you, it is the glasses you wear, not me.

I didn't say 'not telling me about God.' I said 'leaving me to my own spiritual pursuits.' Obviously I wouldn't have any, had I not been taken to Sunday School, now would I? I think it is imperative to give kids the opportunity for a choice--and then let them make it. Because if it's not polluted with fears of going to hell or not being saved, but received as a little child (best time to do that would be then, wouldn't it?) in the spirit of love and wanting to obey a Father who doesn't condemn but shelters, then what could go wrong? God can surely call His sheep without our help.

If a child knows there is a God, and that God is who their parent depends on, then goes through life observing a parent who doesn't contradict their words with actions or treat others in ways they say not to treat one's friends at play--then how better can a parent tell their child about God?

My mom never talked about scripture to me, and I only saw her bible in her hand going to church. But you know my mom has never, ever, once displayed anything before me but a completely honest intention in all that she does, word and deed; and she has never been anything but meek (gentle) and loving to everyone she encounters. She never even really lost her cool with me, growing up. I got a whipping now and then, probably less than I deserved, but I always knew I deserved the ones I got. And I knew why I got them and I never hated her, or my dad, for being rather strict and expecting I live up to whatever responsibilities I asked to take on.

My parents were neither one what I would call religious, in the least. We went to church and we we spent a lot of time together. It was always fun and relaxing, never stilted or full of unrealistic expectations. They were
devoted to being parents and in all ways I can say that they served God in raising me the way they did. But yet they left my spiritual pursuits up to me. And didn't even ask me what they were.

Now that I've had the opportunity to get to know my mom as an adult, living with her, we talk about God and things in the bible, and I realize that there was a lot going on under the surface all those years. No wonder she was such an excellent example. She taught by example, not rhetoric. She did not taint my views in any way, and through all my seeking of God, God was there.
No one had to make it happen or direct it. God did it.

I didn't get that chance with my dad, but I do have his bible now, and I can thumb through it and see what what parts he marked and his little notes here and there and see that he loved all the same parts that are dear to me.

You question my Bible knowledge and yet the Bible contains Proverbs 22:6
Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

Exactly my point. Foisting one's own beliefs on one's child is not training that child, it is trying to mold the pot. We are not the potter. We just donated some clay, perhaps, and we are to guard and protect that clay and the shape that it was given by God.

No God and child interaction in the Bible, look at
Mark 10:13
And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them.

That's not what I meant. I meant as far as religious beliefs and such.

10:15
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.
10:16
And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them.

He blessed them. He didn't preach to them about what they should do or what they should believe in. He just showered them with love.

I can't keep track of evrything about what you believe, but your defense for this one will probably be Jesus isn't God. If that is your defense, Jesus is God.

I don't need a defense for your continued assumptions and judgments about what kind of person I probably am because of what you think I believe based on what you hear in my words--not what I say but what you hear.

Why not? Because even such offensiveness doesn't offend me a bit.

I can understand losing someone very close to you would make you question God.

More assumptions. :shk:
Who said I ever questioned God? I have asked many questions of God, still ask. But as far as questioning Him, as God--never. I've lost way more than just one person that I loved and was close to, starting when I was quite young, and so I'm not shaken up toward God by the death of my loved ones. And there are not many left, to tell you the truth. Just my mom, probably.

And it hurts, no doubt, and each time it seems to hurt more. But I'd be a fool to question God for the necessity of death when I don't question the miracle of birth.

Reading my bible on my own, in church as a child, a certain verse became my favorite of all of them, from the very first time I read it. I still feel someting I can't describe, as if for the first time, every time I read it, even right now. And I took that verse with me all thoughout my life. It is still the dearest to my heart. It has been my comfort and truly my shelter in life. It's actually just half of a verse, but it was one I never, ever let go from my thoughts:

...and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the age.

Originally posted by queenannie38


[edit on 22-12-2005 by dbrandt]

Originally posted by queenannie38

Originally posted by dbrandt
No God and child interaction in the Bible, look at
Mark 10:13
And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them.

That's not what I meant. I meant as far as religious beliefs and such.

God had interaction with Samuel when he was a child. Many times Jesus was talking to and preaching to multitudes and children would be among those multitudes.

By all means, dbrandt--consider yourself to have both the last word and your own personal spin on mine.