a question to believers?

now this is not to say i do not believe in the christian god or any god
or if i even believe that i am really here.but.....
In the bible most of the christians are ruled by their fear and respect of their creator?....doesnt that sound a little too much like the mental state
of our own humanity to be coming from something that is supposed to be all knowing and careing.im going to stop there cause im new and i dont want to get in trouble by offending people.

There's only a few 'christians' in the bible, toward the end. And they don't seem scared at all.

The bible is about Christ, not His followers.

But as to your suggestion of:

Originally posted by toraylin
doesnt that sound a little too much like the mental state
of our own humanity to be coming from something that is supposed to be all knowing and careing

it sure does! Maybe there's some mistaken ideas about the whole thing--perhaps mankind conspires to hide the truth from mankind.

Religion in just another Control Mechanism in the cogs of the NWO, & taking away free will, & free thinking, along with the ability to be different from the rest of the group.

You can't be different, because you might actually think for yourself.

Sad to say, it seems like the 'worst crime' is to be an individual and to be without fear.

I must go hides under me bed.

Originally posted by queenannie38
There's only a few 'christians' in the bible, toward the end. And they don't seem scared at all.

The bible is about Christ, not His followers.

But as to your suggestion of:

Originally posted by toraylin
doesnt that sound a little too much like the mental state
of our own humanity to be coming from something that is supposed to be all knowing and careing

it sure does! Maybe there's some mistaken ideas about the whole thing--perhaps mankind conspires to hide the truth from mankind.

now i know not to mess with the all knowing queen and im probably going to get shredded by saying this but...............uh here it goes.......
but i thought most of the bible was about jewish/hebrew law and lineage...there is only a few hints of the christ in the old test......now of course the new test is all about christ...............please dont make me look to stupid.......

How can I make you look stupid when you are obviously not? I'm not that smart. hee hee

Anyway--the bible isn't about Jews or even Hebrews, it is about Israel. Christ is the Holy One of Israel, the anointed King of Israel.

Israel is not a country the UN declared--Israel is the name of an angel--it means 'who prevails with God.' It is the souls that God sent in order to show the world what Christ revealed--life is eternal and God loves us all. Those who prevail in truth in the name of the LORD are Israel--they are the 'elect,' not because they are 'special' in ways the rest of the world is not, but because they were drafted by God and given a certain job and they must do it or they'll be held accountable. The whole world is not accountable in the same fashion Israel is.

But all the world is to be blessed by extension of Israel. In the OT, God told the children of Israel that any stranger that wanted to enter their camp--essentially become a citizen of that people and be sheltered under God's wing--all they had to do was follow the law of circumcision and there was 'one law for those born in the land and for the stranger that sojourns among you.' God made it very clear there were no distinctions. The plan was (and is) that the whole world will see God's true character through the witness of Israel.

The NT made the fleshly circumcision, which was the 'shadow', become the 'reality' which is spiritual--circumcision of our hearts. Which basically means that we discard the 'outer skin of flesh' that hides the truth inside. Nothing between us and God. This is figurative and hard to explain. It basically means the focus is changed from material priorities to spiritual priorities. The main one is LOVE.

[edit on 12/11/2005 by queenannie38]

In the bible most of the christians are ruled by their fear and respect of their creator? - Toraylin-

I'm not so sure it is so much fear that rules us, but rather Love. Ezekiel 16 is a good chapter to point out the extent to which God Loves the people he created and how Israel, whose crimes can be used to describe the crimes of every man, has betrayed that Love. To become a follower of Christ is to enter into an actual relationship with God; any true believer will have at least some small ammount of Love for God which will tend to direct his actions one way or another; and God has a greater and truer of Love for us than any here on Earth can even hint to having for anything.
You can think of it as being similar to the way a married couple loves each other. Each avoids doing things which may needlessly cause the other emotional or physical pain out of Love for the other. You may argue that that Love may cause the other pain when it wills the improvement of one's partner, but who can improve God, that aspect is true of the way God Loves us, not of the way we love God. If God wills the improvement of his Loved creation in order that they may themselves become Lovable to Him and in so being become also happier and better-off, then pain is inevitable for both. The emotional hurt experienced by God due to our giving of our hearts to things lesser than Him is as inevitable as the pains we experience when God starts making changes in the very core of our being. Therefore, in a relationship where God is loved by a man, what man would want to taint that relationship further than he has by intentionally sinning against Him? It's not a question of fear, but of Love. Hell is mentioned to serve as a warning that we were meant for community with God, not seperation from Him. Obedience to God out of fear is carried out even by Satan (if you don't believe me, find a place in scripture where Satan does something without the go-ahead from God), what matters is the heart.
I hope you find this insightful.

[edit on 12-12-2005 by praenato]

Originally posted by toraylin
....doesnt that sound a little too much like the mental state
of our own humanity to be coming from something that is supposed to be all knowing and careing.

To tackle this question which still remains even after the information I have just given, you must tackle teh question of our nature. Is humanity naturally good or bad? My own self examination and numerous personal experiences point out that even when I personally do things which appear to people on the outside good, my intentions are, more often than not, incredibly self-centered. Get involved in some kind of local charity for the respect of the community, stay fit for the admiration of others, help a friend for their respect and loyalty, help a friend in a selfless way (or self-sacrificing way) to gain the admiration and respect of a community. When I examine myself rightly I come to the realization that I can do no true good, but more importantly, I also must conclude that I am not, in and of myself, capable of having the kind of Love that God is. Thus, Christianity is a miracle which goes against the nature of humanity when God changes the heart of a man/woman to make it capable of having something that can even so much as resemble the Love of the Devine. It therefore, must be the furthest thing from a metnal state of our own humanity. As a disclaimer, the truths here depend greatly upon the recognition that the heart of every man is naturally all sinful. That, in itself, can be explained and described in words with great effort, but not well enough to make an individual realize the truth of his grave condition. The realization is one that must come from a power greater than man.

Originally posted by plague
i thought most of the bible was about jewish/hebrew law and lineage...there is only a few hints of the christ in the old test......now of course the new test is all about christ...............

I would argue that the entire OT is about (or points to) Christ. Christ himself claims this in the Gospel of John. I will point out a few precursers. Genesis 3 -> Man falls and God sacrifices (an) animal(s) to cover the nakedness of Adam and Eve - a forshadowing of the sacrifice of Christ to cover the nakedness of our sin. Genesis 22 -> A stronger foreshadowing where Abraham (or Abram) is told by God to sacrifice his son Isaac for Him just as God sacrificed His Son for us (Abraham does not end up killing Isaac, if you're interested in why, read the story). The story of Joseph, starting at Genesis 37, is one where Joseph, who was undeserving of punishment is betrayed by those he loves, thrown into slavery, then into jail, and then is, by the Grace of God, lifted up into a place of authority with Pharoh and even becomes the savior of his brothers who betrayed him. This sound a lot like the Gospel? That is all just Genesis. There are plenty of other stories which point to Christ. One being the passage where the people of Israel ask for a Prophet to act as a mediator between them and God, many prophets rise up to fulfill that spot temporarily in the OT, but Jesus is the one who perminently fills that spot. In Exodus there is a snake placed on a rod which, when the Jews ame and looked at it, it cured them of any snake venom ---> Jesus uses this as an analogy for His death on the Cross to serve as a cure for our sin in the gospel of John. There are so many I could not possibly mention them all here. If you wish, I could look up more and post them. For now I will leave this subject to rest.

Praenato has given a wonderful example of how to read The Bible so as to understand it. It is a "whole" book, not a line here, a passage there but, "line upon line, precept upon precept, command upon command".

Many get confused or angry when they read something that sounds "blood thirsty" on it's own or collected up with other such passages OUT OF the FULL context of The Book.

Remember also, God loves each individual as individuals and knows what we each need to hear and when we need to hear it, so there's different tones, subjects, styles etc. that "speak" more clearly accordingly, but they all lead to explaining and supporting the same message.

Just as meeting someone doesn't mean you 'know' them, so just having read The Bible doesn't mean you 'know' it, but like building a friendship, it takes many 'conversation', respect and trust, to get really 'close', even if you did 'click' when you first 'met'.

A friend who loves and cares for you will tell you what you need to hear, even when you don't want to hear it, to save you from a worse fate than temporary 'hurt' feelings. There is no better 'friend' than The One who created and loves us all, despite our being such lousy friends in return and there is nothing 'mental' about giving such A One our deepest respect.

Our best friend is our Father, The Father of us all and it is wise to 'listen' to Him and take His 'advice'.

queenie......
israel is the name given to jacob by the angel he wrestles in the wilderness....yes i understood that were not talking about modern day israel......

praenato
yes ive read the story of abraham and isaac, but i always wonder if god would have stopped him from killing ishmael?? you do however give a good arguement about the hints of christ , but i still say its more about hebrew law and liniage......

Originally posted by plague
queenie......
israel is the name given to jacob by the angel he wrestles in the wilderness....yes i understood that were not talking about modern day israel......

Good, I'm glad we're on that same page.

but i always wonder if god would have stopped him from killing ishmael??

God didn't ask him to sacrifice Ishmael--it's not about sons, in general, but about promises, trust, patience, and faith.

Originally posted by plague
but i always wonder if god would have stopped him from killing ishmael??

I fail to see how debating whether or not God would have stopped Abraham from killing Ishmael is relevent to the discussion. If it is meant to pose a question about the character of God, state the question first then give your supporting evidence. I'll be happy to answer your questions.
As far as the Bible being about Hebrew Law, I still disagree. If you cannot say it is about Christ in its entirety, which is a plausible argument, then it would seem then that scripture is not about Law, but about God's interaction with a fallen people/creation. The law only comes about by necessity after the fall. The Bible is really, actually, about God reconciling man back to himself and to the original sinless state we once were in, if you can say it is about any one thing. The Law is only one of the tools God uses to show us how hopeless our state is without His intervention (one used quite a bit yes, but still the Law is not the point of the Bible). It also serves somewhat as a guide to show when you are truly making spiritual progress, but the Law cannot bring about change. The point is we need to be saved and reconciled, that is the thesis which seems to drive the Bible. The OT can be said to be about Jesus because it constantly points to the need for a savior - that is the point the OT is driving toward. To say that the Bible is about the Law is to take all the blame off yourself and lay it on the Law. To say that the Bible is about our failure individually and as a race and how God deals with that is to accept your shame and humble yourself as you should, being imperfect.

Originally posted by toraylin
now this is not to say i do not believe in the christian god or any god
or if i even believe that i am really here.but.....
In the bible most of the christians are ruled by their fear and respect of their creator

You use the word fear as meaning scared, fear can mean reverence. Respect for God is what someone is to do.

You wouldn't exist if God hadn't made you. God is God, that is a fact that if you are a christian you accept and you want to be the truth. If someone has not accepted/received Christ, it is an offense.

Originally posted by queenannie38


The bible is about Christ, not His followers.

The Bible is about Christ. It tells us there is a God and how mankind has been seperated from God by sin and Jesus came to remove that obstacle by His death and resurrection, so that we maybe restored to a relationship with God.

praenato.......
how am i taking anyblame off myself and laying it on the law??? what blame is this???
as far as the ishmael question..it was ment for me...as i did say "i always wonder" which is totaly different then saying "what do you think?"....
but to embelish on this thought (which i realize is pointlesss but im doing it anyway...) god told him to take his only son isaac.......isaac was not his only son ...so what if he did take ishmael up and offered him?..would god still intervene and stop him from killing the innocent child or would he have turned his back and not cared because it was not the sacrifice he wanted..........and i think anyone who reads the bible has to at one point or another wonder what the true character of god is???????

The ark Noah built is also meant to depict Christ. In a nutshell Noah was safe in the ark. Those outside the ark perished. Christians are safe in Christ. If someone is outside of Christ will persish.

And a reminder anyone can be saved.

Originally posted by queenannie38
There's only a few 'christians' in the bible, toward the end.

Acts 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

Originally posted by dbrandt
The ark Noah built is also meant to depict Christ. In a nutshell Noah was safe in the ark. Those outside the ark perished. Christians are safe in Christ. If someone is outside of Christ will persish.

And a reminder anyone can be saved.

wow i had never thought of the ark story in that way.......i just thought it was a good explanation of rainbows..........i always kinda figured it was added on to moses story by an outside source for some unknown reason.....i always took the bible as gods path to him for the hebrews....kinda like the vedas and the gita for hindus, and the koran for the muslims/arabs.........now that you point the ark story out like that it kinda does (atleast for me) seem like maybe it was put there by someone
to give validation to christ .... imean if you read the books of the old test....theres very little mention of the messiah or christ....it started out as the story of the hebrew history and there wanderings and dealings with god and his laws...the ark story as along with adam n eve never realy fit...almost like they didnt want the book starting out about abraham...so they put some stuff before it to explain this and that.......i could be wrong as im shure many of you will claim....

Another extremely interesting thing found in some of the "filler" In Numbers God tells Moses and the Israelites how to set up camp. And we are told the census numbers of the tribes. To shorten the story since I'm running out of time. The tabernacle was set up and then 3 tribes set up camp one next to one another. 3 to the north, 3 to the south, 3 to the east and 3 to the west. I've drawn this out and the census numbers we are given and what this makes is a cross. Can you imagine at night when campfires were lit, a giant glowing cross made up of millions of people was in the desert. When Balaam went up on a cliff to curse the Israelites but blessed them instead, as he stood on the cliff he saw a giant cross in the desert probably miles long. The sacrifice of Christ for us was there from the beginning.


Also start adding up the ages when Adam had Seth and go through all the names and when they had the son listed in Genesis ch. 5 and then continue with the names in Genesis ch. 11:10-26. So you will start with Adam's age when Seth was born and ending with Terah's age when he had Abram. Remember Abram was chosen to begin the jewish race.

When you have finished adding up the ages you will come up with the number1,948. Remove the comma and you have 1948 the year Israel became a nation again.

There are so many things hidden in the Bible for anyone to find.

[edit on 12-12-2005 by dbrandt]