NEWS: Two Israeli Air Strikes Hit Gaza Strip

A crucial factor that is overlooked time and time again is that Palestinian terrorists are indeed criminals. Whilst Israel is a nation with a working government and a military. That means that Israel cannot engage in a criminal tit for tat exchange with terrorists. Israel does not have the luxury of lowering itself down to the level of terrorists because it is a nation.

If the Palestinian government was sanctioning and coordinating these attacks then it would be legitimate for Israel to retaliate in kind, but not since the days of Arrafat have I heard this suggested.

Given this, why is Israel punishing the whole Palestinian people for the actions of a criminal element within it? That is why the Israeli response is wrong.

If a Mexican citizen crossed the US border and shot and killed 10 American civilians would the US Army fire rockets into Tijuana? Of course not!

[edit on 28/10/05 by subz]

Originally posted by subz


If a Mexican citizen crossed the US border and shot and killed 10 American civilians would the US Army fire rockets into Tijuana? Of course not!

I case the terror group that claims responsibility belongs to the ruling party of Mexico (and the government in Mexico does not disarm them and does nothing to stop them) I highly doubt that your piece of advide to the United States would be: "Please, do nothing - they are dangerous..... please: let them kill your familys".


In the immediate wake of last week's terror attack at the Gush Etzion junction, the Aksa Martyr Brigades - the terror group belonging to PA Chairman Mahmoud Abbas's Fatah party - issued an announcement claiming responsibility.

Palestinian Authority President Abbas has to act to stop terror attacks - and also the PA has ulttimately to meet their roadmap obligations, they have to start dismantling those terrorist networks that are responsible for these acts of terror.


[edit on 29-10-2005 by Riwka]

Originally posted by subzIf a Mexican citizen crossed the US border and shot and killed 10 American civilians would the US Army fire rockets into Tijuana? Of course not!

[edit on 28/10/05 by subz]

if it was an attack by a bunch of criminals not backed by mexico, obviously not.

you cant compare this with unsupported criminal activity.

now if it was a supported act by mexico then we most definately would do something.

use better comparisons.

Eye for an Eye

Ah Yes, it is Very hard to Imagine, that Jews and Muslims used to LIVE togather in perfect Harmony once, and it feels like a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away. Before the Great "Western Intervention" that started ALL the Middle Eastern problems, Jerusalem was a place where Jews and Muslims were Neighbours, and they did not shoot and kill each other on daily basis. But today, that seems almost like daily news, like the bird flu, and the hurricanes - I have been listening to Palestine-Israeli news all of my Life. There is no Peace here. It's the "Eye for an Eye" tactic, that Both sides use. And we all know where that leads: They both end up BLIND. Blinded by Hatred and Revenge, this conflict will Never, ever, end. As long as there are Jews in Palestine it wont end. As long as there are Palestinians in Isreal it wont end. There is NOTHING we can do about it. We can just watch them kill each other until Judgement Day. So many people have died, so many innocent ones, that the Revenge is rooted deep inside, it can not be dug out so easily.

For Example,
There is a convoy of Palestinian extremists, and it is rocketed by an Isreali attack helicopter, which fires several missiles to make SURE that the target is eliminated. It ofcourse, hits the target - the leader - but he also kills everybody around him, including innocents people standing by the road, women, children, older people, everybody. Rockets do not choose their targets, they explode when they impact. And you are a Father or a Mother of a 7 year old Girl, that died in that Attack. How are you going to stop her two older Brothers not to Join any of the Extremist organizations? How are you, as a Parent, going to react to that? It is an Endless Circle of Violence, and it was put in motion a long, long time ago. The problem with the Circle of Violence is, that the Longer it lasts, the Harder it is to stop, because it spreaded so much Hate and Revenge by now, that it is impossible to revert it. And now, that two Isreali air strikes hit Gaza, there will be two suicide bombers hitting Isreal. And then the Isreali Army will retaliate. And so on, and so on...

Originally posted by Souljah

and when extremists keep PURPOSELY TARGETTING CIVIIANS what do you expect? inaction? yea good idea if you want angry israelis revolting and going after every muslim, i rather a few accidental deaths than thousands being killed on both sides in a bloody civil war, if israel listened to the UN and took the barrier down and quit attacking IN DEFENSE i bet it would be 1000x worse.

when you have an enemy determined to destroy you, how will anything you dont do, bring peace? do you hug a cactus so it wont prick you? do you stick your head in an alligators mouth for it to not hurt you? i mean hamas has stuck to the truce, israel has too, yet palestinian groups have been attacking the whole time....AND YOU CONDEMN ISRAEL FOR DEFENDING ITSELF? why? if palestinians want peace THEY should prove it, THEY are the aggressors.

Originally posted by namehere
and when extremists keep PURPOSELY TARGETTING CIVIIANS what do you expect? inaction? yea good idea if you want angry israelis revolting and going after every muslim, i rather a few accidental deaths than thousands being killed on both sides in a bloody civil war, if israel listened to the UN and took the barrier down and quit attacking IN DEFENSE i bet it would be 1000x worse.

I fail to see the Difference in the Result - Dead Civilians. When an isreali helicopter fires its missiles and kills several innocent civilans, well that is NOT considered Terrorism - but on the other side, every counter-attack by the Palestinians is. Why is that? How many times was Isreal warned about their "terrorist action"? You think that they Never shot and killed an innocent man or a woman on Purpose? The problem lies in the endless western support for the Isreal and NONE for the Palestinian people. They have to defend themselves with their own hands.

when you have an enemy determined to destroy you, how will anything you dont do, bring peace? do you hug a cactus so it wont prick you? do you stick your head in an alligators mouth for it to not hurt you? i mean hamas has stuck to the truce, israel has too, yet palestinian groups have been attacking the whole time....AND YOU CONDEMN ISRAEL FOR DEFENDING ITSELF? why? if palestinians want peace THEY should prove it, THEY are the aggressors.

When you demolish houses, kill young children playing football, root out 100-year old Olive trees (trees of Peace), you can not have Peace. When asking yourself, why these people do what they do, put yourself in their shoes and think about it for a minute. You blindly defend Isreal and all his version of terrorism. When 8 Isrealis are killed in a suicide bomb, the entire World is Appalled, but when dozens and dozens of Palestinians are killed nobody even cares - it's just a bunch of terrorists anyway! The state of Isreal was Founded on bloody massacres of Palestinian people that defended their homes and their land against the occupation, made legal by the UN mafia. There are records of Genocide and Ethnic cleansing of the indigenous population and lets hear what Isreali Miltary Historian, Aryeh Yitzakhi, Senior Lecturer in the Faculty of Eretz Yisrael Studies at Bar Ilan University (Tel Aviv) and Senior Lecturer in Military History in Israeli Defence Force (IDF) has to say:

“The time has come to face the ocean of lies in which we were brought up. In almost every conquered village in the War of Independence, acts were committed, which are defined as war crimes, such as indiscriminate killings, massacres and rapes…

In the first phase a village was usually subjected to heavy artillery from distance. Then soldiers would assault the village. After giving up resistance, the Arab fighters would withdraw while attempting to snipe at the advancing forces. Some would not flee and would remain in the village, mainly women and old people. In the course of cleansing we used to hit them. One was ‘tailing the fugitives’, as it used to be called (‘mezanvim baborchim’)… In a typical battle report about the conquest of a village we find: ‘We cleansed a village, shot in any direction where resistance was noticed. After the resistance ended, we also had to shoot people so that they would leave or who looked dangerous’.”

Sure - a Great start of a New Country, a country which has foundation of bloody massacres and a very dirty and genocidal war of independance.

Israeli military historian Professor Uri Milstein:

“If Yitzhaki claims that almost in every village there were murders, then I maintain that even before the establishment of the State, each battle ended with a massacre. In all Israel’s wars massacres were committed but I have no doubt that the War of Independence was the dirtiest of them all.”

And then you STILL ask yourselves, why these people defend what is Left of their Homes and their Land?


[edit on 29/10/05 by Souljah]

Souljah, I'm sorry to say that - but your opinion is very naive and seems to be based on some personal conclusions taken from a very shallow impression of the situation. This is what people normally think when they see a military-strong country such as Israel fighting week palestinians, but in fact - apart from being simply insulting - your claim is just not true.

The palestinian terrorists groups are semi-religious fanatics who'se declared goal is the complete destruction of jewish presence in what they call Palestine. This goal was declared before the current "intifada", and the ideology behind the murder of israeli civilizans has little to do with israeli actions.

"When you demolish houses, kill young children playing football, root out 100-year old Olive trees (trees of Peace), you can not have Peace" - its interesting that you say that, because if not the unwillingsess of organizations such as Hamas to do anything other than blowing buses and killing israelis - none of this would happen in the first place.

About the ethnic cleansing - you quotes mention only historical facts about Israeli wars. Since the current situation has little to do with the fact Israel killed the population of a whole village 60 years ago - I don't see the relevence of this. The fact reamins that during the years of the intifada about 3000 palestinians have lost their lives as a result of israeli aggression. That doesn't seems like much of a cleansing to me. I advice you to look at the number of peacefull iraqi citizens killed during the war in iraq (not counting terrorist attacks), or - if you want ethnic cleansing - there are plenty of those in Sudan.

Israel indeed did some things - during its history - which it is not proud of. But even if you take that into consideration, its pretty clear that for over 60 years the goal of many arab countries - including the Palestinians - was the destruction of Israel, while Israel's goal was simply survival.

Perhaps destroying houses, building fences, and constructing checkpoints does't help the Palestinians, but we prefer to increase the number of palestinians willing to destroy Israel, other than letting terrorists organizations such as Hamas blow israeli buses each day - which is something they indeed managed to do before israel started to retaliate seriously.

The fighting on their side is not something caused by demolishing houses - which in itself was done because of terrorism - but its part of an ideology which will remain unchaged as long as the terrorist organizations exist. If the palethinian authority does nothing to fight terrorism, Israel has no choise but to do it by itself. If israel stops fighting - the terrorism won't stop, it will just make it easier to kill more israelis.

And here is a quote about the house demolishment, posted by someone in wikipedia:

In any case, every single house demolishment the IDF undertakes has to do with security, either of its personnel or of the citizens of Israel. There is no "ethnic cleansing" or revenge involved. Just to go into the former for a bit, ethnic cleansing is not destroying somebody's house so they must move 20 metres away. Ethnic cleansing is attacking a certain racial or religious group, in a concerted manner, with intent to either kill them all or get them all to move far, far away to a different country, in order to make your own abode "pure". Evidently, with a 20% Arab minority population, and no concerted attempt to kill or move all Palestinians, there is no ethnic cleansing going on.
So now we move to the reasons behind the home demolitions. I already went into great detail about the IDF destroying the homes of suicide bombers, so now let me move into two other reasons the IDF destroys houses, namely the Philadephi Line and similar buffers, and tunnels. Now the Philadelphi Line is the buffer zone between Egypt and Gaza, which Israel is obliged to patrol by treaty with Egypt. Recently they lost quite a few soldiers through the booby-trapping of the roadway, and snipers shooting them. So they destroyed a patch of houses along one part of the strip to widen it and make it harder for their personnel to be targetted and killed by militants. Related is the issue of tunnels, particularly from Egypt, which run under the Philadelphi Line and come up inside Palestinian houses. Each time Israel destroys a tunnel inside a house, the explosives destroy the house itself. Moral of the story? Don't hide a weapons-smuggling tunnel in your house. Added to this is the fact that Palestinian militant organisations often booby trap a number of houses and roads, in order to detonate the explosives and kill IDF troops on operations, so not all houses that are destroyed are destroyed by the IDF.
So, while we may disagree with the tactics used (some regard house demolitions as an excessive use of force), I think it's rather clear that the reasons behind it are security, not revenge or ethnic cleansing. If you have evidence to refute that, you're welcome to share it.

[edit on 29/10/05 by Transc3ndent]

Originally posted by Souljah

Isreali Miltary Historian, Aryeh Yitzakhi

Please check your sources.

Aryeh Yitzakhi was not a military historian at all, but rather a mere clerk:

Jerusalem Post August 17, 1995 quoted Yitzhaki’s then-commanding officer, historian Meir Pa’il

He [Aryeh Yitzhakhi] was a clerk in the department's archive.

In 1968, he was an assistant of mine when I conducted a comparative study of the conquests of Sinai in 1948, 1956, and 1967.

Had he stumbled on these devastating so-called facts, he would have said so then.

The fact is he didn't.

This report also states that transcripts of orders from the Six Day War shown to the Jerusalem Post yesterday clearly indicate that the alleged mass murder of Egyptian POWs near El-Arish never occurred as described by Aryeh Yitzhaki.

What actually happened was a full-fledged battle between soldiers:

... several hundred armed Palestinian soldiers, in Egyptian Army uniforms, were trying to escape from the Gaza Strip towards Port Said – not knowing that the area was already under IDF control – on the last day of the war [with Egypt]. They exchanged fire with Nahal soldiers and most were later killed by soldiers from the Shaked reconnaissance unit.

Supporting this is a contemporaneous account from the New York Times, which reported precisely such battles, but no massacres. Datelined El-Arish, June 7, the Times article reported that:

... pockets of Egyptian troops in Sinai and Palestinian troops in the Gaza Strip continued desperate resistance...

The army base here was also in Israeli hands yesterday evening after a three hour battle. Heavy casualties were inflicted, more than a thousand prisoners surrendered and some Egyptian soldiers fled into the desert.

At dawn today an Egyptian commando company struck back. An officer told reporters that the enemy had stormed the camp at daybreak with submachine guns blazing. They inflicted casualties, but were gunned down.

Later this morning, when a battalion commander went toward the home of the governor to arrange for a formal surrender, fire was opened from several houses in the town. The Israelis withdrew, and orders were given to subdue the enemy by shelling.

Brief and sporadic bursts of machinegun fire were heard between mortar blasts. Reporters were told that Egyptians were being flushed out of stone-lined trenches around the town. (New York Times, June 8, 1967; (emphasis added)

And not just reporters; photographers also accompanied the Israeli troops throughout their advance into the Sinai. Indeed, an American photographer for Life Magazine, Paul Schutzer, was killed while riding with Israeli troops in a half-track that came under Egyptian attack.


June 7, 1967: Israeli soldier guards Egyptian POW s at El Arish (Shabtai Tal)

The photographers also recorded Israeli doctors tending to wounded POWs.


June 26, 1967: Wounded POW receives care at the hospital in the Atlit POW compound in Israel.

Some of the wounded Egyptian POWs bade a friendly goodbye as they were being repatriated to Egypt:


July 31, 1967: After Israeli treatment wounded Egyptian POWs are carried to a Red Cross ambulance plane for the trip to Cairo.

Source and more information:

CAMERA: Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting







[edit on 29-10-2005 by Riwka]

Seriously - CAMERA?



Now there is a Real Non-Biased Source for some good old News form Middle East. Apparently the only problem, from their point of view, is the anti-Jewish, anti-Isrelai, anti-American talk. Heck, there is more anti-Arab slander there, then in New York Sun and the Wall Street Journal combined!

One of the co-founders of CAMERA, Dr. Charles Jacobs, is also a president fo the David Project - the website that "Claims" to promote "fair and honest understanding of the conflict in the Middle East," but infact promotes only pro-Isreai perspective on the situation.

I do not take CAMERA for a reliable source for information coming from the Middle East - sorry Riwka, nice try tho.

What kind of answer is this Souljah?

I asked you to check your sources, because they are wrong - you quoted a falsification.

Aryeh Yitzakhi was not a military historian at all, neither is/was he a Senior Lecturer in the Faculty of Eretz Yisrael Studies at Bar Ilan University (his name can not be found on the name list), and of course he has not been a Senior Lecturer in Military History in the IDF.

The same happened here, you quoted a falsification ("With clandestine Terrorism we will conduct war") as a translation for the old Mossad-motto.

But the correct translation is:

Betahbulot Ta'ase Lekha Milkhama - בתחבולות תעשה לך מלחמה

"For by wise counsel thou shalt make thy war" (Proverbs XXIV, 6)

I think it would be wise for you to check your sources and please, avoid quoting falsifications


[edit on 30-10-2005 by Riwka]

7 years, 8 weeks, 5 days till 12-23-2012, the end of the Mayan calendar...

Aryeh Yitzhaki is an Israeli military historian who has served as a lecturer at the Bar Ilan University Tel Aviv and as a senior lecturer in the field of military history in IDF courses for officers.

en.wikipedia.org...

Is that the Right Guy?

The Washington Post on August 17, 1995:

"Israeli soldiers killed hundreds of Egyptian prisoners of war during the 1967 Middle East war - deaths that commanders who are now prominent leaders have known about for years, historians said today. The controversy involves some top politicians, including Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin and legislator Rafael Eitan [who also gave us U.S. Navy spy Jonathan Pollard, and then lied about it], a former army chief. The allegations dominated news shows, shocking many Israelis who have long prized the notion that their army maintained high ethical standards throughout decades of warfare with the Arab world and military rule over Palestinians. The Army spokesman, Brig. Gen. Amos Gilad, refused to comment. Rabin, who was chief of staff when some of the 1967 killings allegedly were committed, walked away today when a reporter shouted a related question. His office later issued a statement denouncing the killings and calling them isolated incidents.

"Military historian Aryeh Yitzhaki said today that Israeli troops carried out several mass killings in 1967 in which about 1,000 Egyptian prisoners were slain in the Sinai. Yitzhaki, who worked in the army's history department after the war, said he and other officers collected testimony from dozens of solders who admitted killing POWs. He said a report on the killings submitted to his superiors has been locked in a safe at military headquarters.

"Another Israeli historian, Uri Milstein, said there were many incidents in the 1967 war in which Egyptian soldiers were killed by Israeli troops after they had raised their hands in surrender.

"It was not an official policy, but there was an atmosphere that it was okay to do it," Milstein said. "Some commanders decided to do it; others refused. But everyone knew about it."

www.fas.org...

I understand why you do not like these two guys - Uri and Aryeh - very Much.

In 1967 Six-Day War, Egyptian POWs Ordered to Dig Graves, Then Shot by Israeli Army

Zionist Massacres in 1948: New Evidence

There are a number of reasons why the publication of this information is important:

• It shows once more and through the pen of Israeli historians what motivated the Palestinian Arabs to flee in 1948.
  
  
• It shows how the Zionist establishment has attempted and still attempts to hide the truth about the massacres of Palestinians in the 1948 War.
  
  
• It exposes the fallacy according to which it was mainly right-wing Zionists (the terrorist groups IZL and LEHI led by Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir) who committed atrocities against Palestinian Arabs in 1948. In fact, most atrocities and massacres were committed by 'nice Jewish boys and girls', from the Labour movement, many of whom grew up in kibbutzim in a humanist environment.
  
  
• It exposes the myth, entertained in the West, according to which Israel's practices towards Palestinians worsened when the right-wing Likud came to power.
  
  
• It documents the development of a growing awareness among Israeli intellectuals of the need to face the past with honesty. This is a rather recent and salutary phenomenon.

Since its establishment, the State of Israel keeps a conspiracy of silence concerning massacres committed in the War of Independence (4). The only massacre acknowledged in official publications is that of Deir Yassin, perhaps because it was perpetrated by the IZL (Irgun). Books and press reports have referred to dozens of cases, but only partially and incompletely.

Maybe you shoudl check your sources too - espcially if you trust CAMERA, the true "Source" of False News from the Middle East...

[edit on 30/10/05 by Souljah]

Yes, this is the guy - and as said before: you are quoting a falsification. You should read the CAMERA- article I provided - It refers to different other articles and photos.

Please - CHECK YOUR SOURCES!

**************************************************************

Israel Radio reported on Sunday, Palestinian newspaper Al Quds announced that the Palestinian Authority is nearing an agreement with militant factions regarding rocket attacks on Israel.

Abbas is quoted to have said Palestinians gave Israel the excuses to launch its latest strikes in Gaza. Palestine Media Center - Abbas: This Time Israel Was Not the Aggressor

On Friday, representatives of "The Quartet"

( U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov, U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, U.K. Foreign Secretary Jack Straw, High Representative for European Common Foreign and Security Policy Javier Solana, and European Commissioner for External Relations Benita Ferrero-Waldner )

spoke on the situation in the Middle East and condemned the October 26 terrorist attack on the Hadera market.

Palestinian Islamic Jihad - headquartered in Damascus - had claimed responsibility for this attack.

"The Quartet" issued a statement (UN.org: Quartet Statement) urging the Syrian government to take immediate action to close the offices of Palestinian Islamic Jihad.


Also effective as of this morning, Karni Crossing in the northern Gaza Strip has been reopened for the passage of merchandise, and Sufah crossing in the southern Gaza Strip has been reopened for the passage of building materials.

But the Erez Crossing (this crossing permits the entry of Palestinian laborers from Gaza into Israel) remained closed.

The general closure imposed on Gaza and the West Bank following last week's deadly suicide bombing in Hadera remained intact.

On Sunday morning, a few hours after the latest Qassam strike, a mortar landed in an open area, causing no injuries or damage.









[edit on 30-10-2005 by Riwka]

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing"
-Edmund Burke

If Israel does nothing then they will be destroyed.
USA took over Afghanistan after it was attacked by terrorists from there.
Israel is merely fighting back.

Praise Israel for showing restraint.
They have every right in the world to follow America's example and take over countries that attack them, yet all they do is retaliate when they are attacked by state sponsored terrorism.

Blowing up yourself on a bus full of civilians is not an act of war, it is an act of terrorism, and as such those responsible should be hunted down, killed, dragged through the streets, and their remains fed to the dogs.

IMO Israel should declare war on Palestine and take it over the same way the USA took over Afghanistan.
Yea, they'll catch holy hell for it, but their problems will be solved.

Originally posted by mrjones
.

Praise Israel for showing restraint.

exactly!


do you know what isreal could of done after Iran made that statement that isreal should be whiped off the map...isreal could of went and bombed every single military target in Iran just for saying what they said. this is a massive holding back in isreals part sence they can destroy almost all of the arabs nations militaries in the area with ease.