Everybody ready to bust out the champagne for the 2000 mark?

Originally posted by ANOK
Who gives a damn about DWI, nobody is forced to drink and drive.

Excellent point!(Excluding the innocent fatalities caused by the drunks) Nobody forced anyone to join the military either. Who gives a damn about the military deaths.

Originally posted by ANOK
Were you there putting your life on the line?
Those of us that did will be paying for that for the rest of our lives.
Where is this support you all claim to be giving now?

Hold on a sec. while I go polish the bronze star on my Southwest Asia ribbion...Ah! here it is right next to my honorable discharge for 6 years active duty and 2 reserve. Of course that's right next to the pile of junk such as an outstanding unit award for serving in theater during Desert Storm, etc, etc. Maybe later I'll post some pictures of me standing in the sand next to a patriot missile launcher. But you knew all this when you started talking about my lack of support.

Originally posted by ANOK
And back to your DUI analogy. If Cindy Sheehan was the mother of a guy who was killed by a drunk driver instead of in an illegal war, would you still be against her?

No, but the media wouldn't care at all about her. She would just be another nut-case. They don't care about the numbers, just the excuse to criticize the current administration. That's my point in a nutshell. The 2000 number is a drop in the bucket compared to other issues, but the media doesn't care because it doesn't make Pres. Bush look bad.

Originally posted by devilwasp
A) You said yourself your an ex-serviceman but could you explain to me how we would "get them back"?
Whats the exit strategy? I mean does the US go crying to the UN for help? Do we let iraq descend into chaos and civil war?
Do we help them?

Sry to answer your questions with more questions but...
Do you think we should help them? How are we helping them?
Look at Iraq now, is it any better than it was? Do they really want our help?
War to me is not helping anybody.
I say pull the troops out, let them deal with their own problems, we have enough of our own we can't take care of as you have pointed out.
What would happen if the U.N. decided the U.S. population needed to be liberated from Bush? Would you support that?

B) I think the comparision about the drink driving is quite the same, what about all the deaths that have happened in my country and yours due to drink driving, assualts, gang wars, etc. When you look at the results you start to wonder, wheres the real battlefield? Iraq or at home?

Deaths caused by alcohol and gangs here in the U.S. does not justify the death of people in an illegal war in a country thousands of miles away.
If we didn't go running around making war with other countries for agendas having nothing to do with freedom or democracy we could maybe take care of those problems that are on our own doorstep. What did the Bible say about logs in thine eyes?

C) 2000 men and women dead from america is..well theres no real word for it..but you have to ask yourself, or more precisely ask those that did make it out. Was it worth it? Did THEY think it was "the right thing to do"?

Well in my case, I can only talk for myself, it's a big NO. What have those deaths done for us? And what about the 10,000 dead from Gulf War related illneses and wounds? I've yet to see any of you tackle that one. What's up? That number too big for you all to comprehend. 2000 dead is far from the real truth now isn't it?
What about those Gulf War vets who are sick and can't work. Guess what? You're paying for them now with SSI and service connected disability payments. You see the cost of this war for us all is far more than 2000 dead U.S. servicemen.

D) You made a comment earlier about "armchair" generals, I wanted to ask something. I support the war and frankly I have to ask, what do you want me to do?Go fight in the war?Stay at home?Finish my cadetship? Become a full comunist? What do you want me to do?

I can't tell you what to do, that's up to you to decide. All I ask is for you to really think about what you mean by "support the troops". Those that are now sick because of it are getting very little support. Do you know how hard it is for vets to get disabilitity payments? I've been sick for 6 yrs, haven't been able to work in 4 yrs. I just got on SSI 2 yrs ago, still waiting for service connected. Where is the support for the troops now. And this is nothing new, look up agent orange. Veitnam vets were screwed over the same way.
Wave the flag for us while we're on the battle front but when we get home we're just another casualty to be forgotten about and kept quite by the government who don't want thier dirty laundry waving in everyones faces.
Means you might actualy have to do more than just wave a flag. Rah rah rah!!
What do you mean by "support"...

dictionary.reference.com...

please explain what from that list of meanings you are doing??

Wouldn't bringing the troops home and taking care of our own many, many problems be more supportive than just flag waving?

What is it about this war you feel justifies all that expanse in lives and money?
10,000+ dead and thousands sick, is that worth it to you? Whatever it is.

@dbates

OK cool another vet, you did the same time in as me...

But now I'm really surprised by your attitude. Someone who has been there I thought would have a better understanding of what it's really all about.

Do you have GWI, are you sick and unable to work? Just curious.

You pro bush pro war crowd are using the 2000 dead just as much as the anti-war crowd is. 2000 is a drop in a bucket eh? Would you feel that way if your son was one of them? So how about 10,000 and the ones who are sick? Ppl keep ignoring the real facts of this war.
The 2000 is being used by both sides, you are no better. In fact you are worse cause you want to allow more to die and get sick, at least the other side is trying to stop this madness.

You're a vet, you should know better!

Do you really think 10,000+ dead and thousands sick is worth it?

Do you think just saying "support the troops" is actualy doing that, or is it just blind flag waving?

I'd like to see a pic of your ribbons, I'm sure you saw the pic of mine?
Not doubting you at all, just interested. You know vets helping vets and all that.

And nobody being forced to join the military I agree to a point, but some ppl are forced economicaly, either military or unemployment.
But that being said I'm sure you didn't sign up to go die for an agenda that has nothing to do with the protection or freedom of your country, I know I didn't. I didn't sign up to police the world or further the political and financial agendas of the ruling elites. I didn't sign up to liberate Iraqis, or Kuwaitis (sp?) for that matter.
I didn't sign up to become a guinea pig for pharmasueticals to test vacines that were not FDA aproved and be sick for the rest of my life. I don't even know what the future holds for me health wise, it seems I get a new symptom every other week.

I didn't sign up for all that, did you?

Maybe you're one of the lucky ones who got all you expected from your service, well good for you.

[edit on 27/10/2005 by ANOK]

No, I don't have any sickness that I can contribute to any chemicals, or the number of odd shots we received before leaving(Quite a few). I might feel differently about the whole thing if I was sick for years afterwords. Also I was in the USAF. We didn't hang out on the front lines. We just had to walk around in MOP-4 and hope the incoming scuds would miss and were not chemical. I was in the Ar Riyad region most of the time.

As far as I know no one in my unit had any GWI, although we had a couple idiots that got sick from self-inflicted wounds while playing with their atropine injectors. (Idiots)

I signed up partially because it sounded like a good idea. You know the good ole patriotic thing. Partially because I wanted the college tuition money. I guess I got exactly what I expected out of the situation. I did my time, and even signed up for some reserve duty after my active duty time. Use the G.I. Bill money to pay for college. I guess I'm a poster-boy for the military.

I do remember being a little concerned hearing about the problem with Iraq while I was in basic training(1990). I never thought it would come to actual war, but volunteered to go overseas when the opportunity came up. I always wondered about the people who did everything they could to keep from getting deployed. They did join the military you know. But looking back now I see that I didn't have a family at the time, and they did. Sort of makes sense.

Supporting the troops, means different things for everyone. For some it's joining the military, or it could be just sending them a letter telling them thanks for their service. Even "flag waving" and showing national pride has it's place in support. Chaining yourself to the White House fence doesn't do anything. Her time would be better served helping other mothers who have lost sons in Iraq. I don't mind people criticizing the President and his administration, I just get tired of the stories that focus on the troops in a negative way. Ooooh they burned a couple of corpses they found. Those bad soldiers. O no! A soldier shot a camera man (Who point a large shoulder mounted object at a tank in the middle of a war-zone). That's the kind of stuff I get so sick of hearing.

Originally posted by ANOK
Sry to answer your questions with more questions but...
Do you think we should help them?

Yes.

How are we helping them?

Last time I checked we removed a dictator.

Look at Iraq now, is it any better than it was?

No its not and that frankly is the point,wil we leave it like that or continue to help and moan about something we cant change.

Do they really want our help?

Thats a difficult question to answer, some do some dont.

War to me is not helping anybody.

Thats right, war doesnt help anyone, only the aftermath can help.

I say pull the troops out, let them deal with their own problems, we have enough of our own we can't take care of as you have pointed out.

So you think we should adopt a "prime directive" kind of policy?

What would happen if the U.N. decided the U.S. population needed to be liberated from Bush? Would you support that?

No offence to the UN but as of late it cant decide on anything, more precisely its MEMBERS cant decide on anything.

Deaths caused by alcohol and gangs here in the U.S. does not justify the death of people in an illegal war in a country thousands of miles away.

No it doesnt, but it shows another thing.
We care about our soldiers dieing due to enemy fire since really its plastered all over the news.
What about the guys and gals dieing at home? What about the unlucky people who just drop dead or die of ilness?

If we didn't go running around making war with other countries for agendas having nothing to do with freedom or democracy we could maybe take care of those problems that are on our own doorstep.

But thats it, should the US adopt another isolationist attitude? Should it "close the borders" and focus inward?
BTW, I wouldnt say that this war had nothing to do with freedom or democracy.

What did the Bible say about logs in thine eyes?
[/qoute]
No offence to anyone who believes in god, but IMO the bibles not to be trusted.

What have those deaths done for us?

What does any death do?
Its not about the deaths IMO , but what they fought to do.

And what about the 10,000 dead from Gulf War related illneses and wounds?

What about the ones created in this war?
Or the illnesses at home?

I've yet to see any of you tackle that one.

I didnt know if it was "taboo" ornot I'm afriad..

What's up? That number too big for you all to comprehend. 2000 dead is far from the real truth now isn't it?

2000 dead isnt to far for the real truth for me, you want the truth?
I believe the only year a british serviceman wasnt killed was 1986.....thats right 1986 was the last time no british servicemen died.
That hits me hard.

What about those Gulf War vets who are sick and can't work. Guess what?

What about any vets who get sick and cant work?

You're paying for them now with SSI and service connected disability payments. You see the cost of this war for us all is far more than 2000 dead U.S. servicemen.

2000 dead servicemen is far more costy to me than paying with social security (BTW I am not old enough to pay that)

I can't tell you what to do, that's up to you to decide.

Yes it is up to me to decide but look at the posts in this thread and others, "Why do you support murderers!" or "Are you being unpatriotic?" Or "Your a coward! Go out and fight!" . All these voices, all these people telling you diffrent things and thier opinions on everything and anything.
The one serios question is this; Why are you telling me what to do? Why me?

All I ask is for you to really think about what you mean by "support the troops".

I support just about every troop I can, my cousin in law to be is now a serving marine in the RMC's.

Those that are now sick because of it are getting very little support. Do you know how hard it is for vets to get disabilitity payments? I've been sick for 6 yrs, haven't been able to work in 4 yrs. I just got on SSI 2 yrs ago, still waiting for service connected. Where is the support for the troops now. And this is nothing new, look up agent orange. Veitnam vets were screwed over the same way.

Back here I am sure we treat our wounded servicemen quite well.
Hell, if they cant work I think the MOD continues to pay them.
I support the wounded vets and seving troops, just because your wounded, cant work or even just in pain you should be respected.

Wave the flag for us while we're on the battle front but when we get home we're just another casualty to be forgotten about and kept quite by the government who don't want thier dirty laundry waving in everyones faces.
Means you might actualy have to do more than just wave a flag. Rah rah rah!!

I am sorry if thats how your treated and thats how you feel , I truly am.
I'm sorry if your government treats you like that, I'm not too sure mine does but I sure as hell hope it doesnt!

What do you mean by "support"...

I stand behind them in just about everything, if they ask for help I'll give it. Hell I want to be one when I'm older.

dictionary.reference.com...

please explain what from that list of meanings you are doing??

Well atleast in that I am;

To argue in favor of

Wouldn't bringing the troops home and taking care of our own many, many problems be more supportive than just flag waving?

Yes it would, but would it solve the problem we are in?
Would it make what those men and women died or where wounded for just superfluous?

What is it about this war you feel justifies all that expanse in lives and money?

What is it that justifies a war? Nothing, except self defence. Only the outcome can make those who got hurt and wounded in it worthwhile.

10,000+ dead and thousands sick, is that worth it to you? Whatever it is.

Was it worht 10,000 dead and thousands sick to remove a regime that slaughtered, mutilated, raped and commited varios other horrible acts on its own people worth it?
Was it worth sending my countries armed forces to war to try and correct a mistake we made before? Yes. I think it was.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by skippytjc
That’s just it Biker, we all want to feel sorry for her loss. But she has ruined it.

Speak for yourself. There are as many people (if not more) who respect her and think she's great for what she's doing.

By the way, bikereddie, she has always been against the war. It was only after Casey died in April that she AND HER HUSBAND founded Gold Star Families for Peace and she became more active. It was only in August of this year when she went to Bush's ranch in Crawford that people began to know who she is.

As i said in my post, i have not got too much info on her, other than what is posted here. I only asked the question if she was protesting before her son died.
Yes, she is against the War, and has been from the start. So am i, even though my son has served in Iraq, and is now due to go to Afghanistan shortly.
I can understand her anger etc, but why start the campaign now, when she should have, maybe been dong it at the start? No one has said anywhere that she was a strong campaigner before her son died.

That is the question i need answering. Did she campaign before? If not, then why not. If she has such notions now, where were they before her son died?

What would happen if the U.N. decided the U.S. population needed to be liberated from Bush? Would you support that?

If the U.N. decided that we needed to be liberatedfrom Bush, it would send this nation into a mad frenzy. HELL YES I WOULD, you see, I to am tired of Bush's lies and his Presidential Follies! But I have to admit, those follies except for a few, namely Katrina and 9-11, where actually pretty damn funny.

Originally posted by Bikereddie
That is the question i need answering. Did she campaign before? If not, then why not. If she has such notions now, where were they before her son died?

I don't know. I don't think she was actively protesting before she lost her son. And why did she start then? Most likely because she lost her son. Something like that has a way of motivating a person into action.

I was against our government shipping jobs overseas, but when my husband's job got shipped overseas, I did a lot more than just complain about it. I started writing letters. I was motivated to action.

When something touches us personally, we usually have a tendency to get more involved. You see it when people join cancer support groups, MADD, and so on. Why would anyone join a cancer group if they never had cancer? They might want to help and donate money to cancer organizations, but until they have cancer or are touched by cancer, there would be no reason to join a support group.

Does that make sense?

Devilwasp I'm not gonna answer yourb whole post because if you read my posts corectly I already have, you seem very confused about where I'm coming from.

I was in the U.S. military, I am talking about the U.S. military, and the U.S. government. Got it now?

Get a clue. There are thousands of us U.S. troops sick and dying, not from wounds, but from vacines that we were given as guinea pigs, from depleted uraniam rounds and other things. Infact over 10,000 have died sinse Gulf one.

You obviously are not reading my posts corectly, only seeing what you want to, otherwise you would already know that, right?

What did you say the gov is doing for our vets? You don't have a clue do you? C'mon be honest now, as I am being with you. I know first hand what they are doing. Same thing they did with the vietnam vets and agent orange. Denying everything as usual!
Have you ever tried living on disability payments? Got a car? Well that's gotta go, can't afford it. Want to live in a house? No way dude can't afford it.
Want to get married have kids? Oh no can't do that can't afford AND if I have kids they will have Gulf War illness, betcha didn't know that did you? Yes babies of vets are being born with GWI and other physical problems. You see this goes far deeper than your press and it's 2000 dead troops!
Think about that for awhile. Still think it's worth it?

You are in the minority I'm affraid bud. I know you like to think everybody supports this war, but it aint so. You're a dying bried much like the vets you so calously throw to one side in your fear of what you don't know.

Get a clue!! When you go and do your bit and come back sick and disabled form this stupid war I'll talk with you again until then cya.

Wow, no thread on this board has ever made me this angry. You make wild claims about vets supporting the war and when a real vet tells you otherwise and tells how it realy is you all get your damned pink panties in a twist
You don't come to ATS learn you'lls minds already been made up for you.

What is this misconception you have about bringing the troops home making those that died and are sick/wounded a waste? As a sick vet I just don't get that train of thought. You think getting more killed wounded and sick is gonna make it worth it? How about you volunteering for an Anthrax shot or maybe one for botulism? You don't have to go fight just get the shots, you know out of sympathy and support for those of us who had no choice.
Enjoy your comfortable life while those of us that did go, can't. You have no clue what we're going through. And I ask you again, what the hell for? Nobody has been able to answer me that. And don't say we got rid of a dictator, who's dictator? Yours? Did he have any effect on your life? Was this man worth 10,000 dead and thousands sick?
What about the other hundred or so countries that need help? What about the millions starving in Africa, I don't see us running to help them out.
You know why? Cause there's no profit or political gain in it.

Yeah truth hurts don't it!!

[edit on 27/10/2005 by ANOK]

Originally posted by dbates
I don't mind people criticizing the President and his administration, I just get tired of the stories that focus on the troops in a negative way. Ooooh they burned a couple of corpses they found. Those bad soldiers. O no! A soldier shot a camera man (Who point a large shoulder mounted object at a tank in the middle of a war-zone). That's the kind of stuff I get so sick of hearing.

Hey dbates thanx for the calm and mature reply, all my respects to you!!

Sry if I've come across a bit strong but ppl just don't know what some of us vets are going through. It's not fun and it isn't over yet. I have the version of GWI caused by the experimental shots we were given, anthrax etc...Not all deployed units were given these shots.
It is causing an autoimune (sp?) deficiency, in other words it causes your body to creat symptoms that you should not have. One of my many symptoms is osteoporosis (bone desease) that usualy only post menpaus women get..lol
I'm 41, my calcium and vit D levels are normal, which are not in normal osteo cases, in other words I have no physical reasons for this desease. It is the brain creating these problems but they are very real. The fear is what's next, it's not over for us and never will be. I have no idea if I'll even live to see 50.

Not trying to gain sympathy for myself (for the troops in general yes) just trying to make you all realise how serious this is for us. It's not just about 2000 dead or Cindy Sheehan, it goes far deeper than that. I don't care if you hate Cindy. I just don't want any more to go through what I and others are. Surely you can understand that right?

[edit on 27/10/2005 by ANOK]

Originally posted by ANOK
Devilwasp I'm not gonna answer yourb whole post because if you read my posts corectly I already have, you seem very confused about where I'm coming from.

I do?

I was in the U.S. military, I am talking about the U.S. military, and the U.S. government. Got it now?

I know...why all this?

Get a clue. There are thousands of us U.S. troops sick and dying, not from wounds, but from vacines that we were given as guinea pigs, from depleted uraniam rounds and other things. Infact over 10,000 have died sinse Gulf one.

Yes I know..I was saying that was sad...

You obviously are not reading my posts corectly, only seeing what you want to, otherwise you would already know that, right?

Right...ummm ook I think you might be misinterpreting my posts...

What did you say the gov is doing for our vets? You don't have a clue do you? C'mon be honest now, as I am being with you. I know first hand what they are doing. Same thing they did with the vietnam vets and agent orange. Denying everything as usual!

Well I was talking about my government ( the UK) and saying how I hoped it wasnt doing what your s(the US) does..

Have you ever tried living on disability payments? Got a car? Well that's gotta go, can't afford it. Want to live in a house? No way dude can't afford it.

No mate...Look man whats with the agression?

Want to get married have kids? Oh no can't do that can't afford AND if I have kids they will have Gulf War illness, betcha didn't know that did you? Yes babies of vets are being born with GWI and other physical problems. You see this goes far deeper than your press and it's 2000 dead troops!
Think about that for awhile. Still think it's worth it?

I'm not going to reply any more to this post.
Firstly I am not trying to get at you, hell I am agreeing with you on many things and trying to explain.
If you want to shout, scream and berrate me then go ahead...You'll just be another adult doing so...
Look sir,NCO or what ever rank you where, I have respect for what you went through, done and are going through, but there wasw no need to give me that kind of agression.

I havent even bothered to read the rest....treat me with respect if you want or dont...I'll still respect you.

OK, DOH!! My bad Devilwasp, I apolagize

I am English myself born and draged up, but was in U.S. military (long story) and I was assuming wrongly you thought I was talking about the Brits military cause I mentioned I'm English earlier somewhere. Most ppl on this site I'm sure you know are American.
Was getting a little heated and carried away in this thread. It's a subject VERY close to my heart as I'm sure you understand.

Sorry bro *slaps self in head*

Hell, if they cant work I think the MOD continues to pay them.

That was the reason for what you called agression. Just trying to point out why getting payed by the MOD or whoever (or not in MOST cases) doesn't solve the vets problems. It's barely enough to live on. We want to be able to work, to contribute like anyone else. But when our "duty" is done we're thrown an old chewed bone and expect to be happy with it.

Sry if you thought I was being too agressive but it seems in this thread that was the only way to make a point. War is agressive, vets are agressive, we were taught to be. You don't stop when they let you out. This situation needs agression or nothing will change.

[edit on 27/10/2005 by ANOK]

Originally posted by ANOK
War is agressive, vets are agressive, we were taught to be. You don't stop when they let you out. This situation needs agression or nothing will change.

[edit on 27/10/2005 by ANOK]

Amen !!! If people would just open their eyes and pay attention to what a Vet's has to say, they may learn something. If they would go visit the vet's hospitals and take a good look at all the vets that are there or keep their ears open to whats being said to a vet in the vets hospital they would learn something. Veterans put their lives/health/whole bodies on the line for their country, then to come back home ill, maimed, parts of their bodies gone or they come back in a box to be buried, some that live are no different then the walking dead because they have too many illnesses that are slowly killing them. Vet's go threw hell trying to get medical treatment through the Vet's hospitals, they have to have all their papers just so-so in order to receive the medical treatment they deserve and are intitled too.
All veterans should be treated with Respect no matter what war it was that they fought in . I've never been in the service but I come from a long line of Veterans that can be traced all the way back to before the Civil War.

When my father use to talk about the Korean war that he fought in and would describe the horrors that befailed our people that got caught by the enemy, I use to and still do "cringe" at the images that would flash across my mind.

War is not a good thing but sometimes it is a must and other times it is senceless, like this war with Iraq .
Iraq was not threatening us with WMD's as Bush said they were, and for that one lie alone Bush & Co should be impeached for war crimes and our troops should be brought home NOW before we lose anymore soldiers !!!

George Bush has the gull to send our troops to their deaths for others to become rich off of the oil they are stealing from the Iraqi people and for his own justifications to fill this need of revenge on Saddam , when the SOB (Bush) hisself ran from his duties when he was young. Why anyone would want someone like G W Bush as president of the USA is beyond me.

Bush & Co should be inpeached/releived of the presidential duties of White House, charged with war crimes found quilty and get a long prison sentence for their crimes. Our soldiers should be pulled out of Iraq and Saddam and his men should be returned to Iraq with hopes that the dictator can get things under control again since people there are afraid of him.
Some will say, " but what about all the crimes Saddam committed against the people of Iraq" ????
I say, " It's not our problem, what Saddam does in his country is his bussiness, not ours, as long as he doesn't try and start anything with us ". We have no right to force our will upon a different country, IMO !

Originally posted by ANOK
OK, DOH!! My bad Devilwasp, I apolagize

I am English myself born and draged up, but was in U.S. military (long story) and I was assuming wrongly you thought I was talking about the Brits military cause I mentioned I'm English earlier somewhere.

Hey mate we all assume things.

Most ppl on this site I'm sure you know are American.
Was getting a little heated and carried away in this thread. It's a subject VERY close to my heart as I'm sure you understand.

I do mate..

That was the reason for what you called agression. Just trying to point out why getting payed by the MOD or whoever (or not in MOST cases) doesn't solve the vets problems. It's barely enough to live on. We want to be able to work, to contribute like anyone else. But when our "duty" is done we're thrown an old chewed bone and expect to be happy with it.

Thats the issue though, I mean what do you do after your wounded?

Sry if you thought I was being too agressive but it seems in this thread that was the only way to make a point. War is agressive, vets are agressive, we were taught to be. You don't stop when they let you out. This situation needs agression or nothing will change.
[edit on 27/10/2005 by ANOK]

I know your taught to be, but theres a time for agression and a time for being calm.
Agression works in most cases but its not the best solution, hell I used to get agressive at cadets but that doesnt work. They just get agressive back and it becomes an endless cycle and NOTHING is acomplished.

Originally posted by deltaboy
www.washingtonpost.com...

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Cindy Sheehan, the military mother who made her son's death in Iraq a rallying point for the anti-war movement, plans to tie herself to the White House fence to protest the milestone of 2,000 U.S. military deaths in Iraq.

hmm.. i could swear Obama promised during or before his 1st term, that he would bring all our troops home specifically from Afghanistan...

which makes the following news impossible. how did that happen?

edit on 14-12-2012 by minnow because: (no reason given)