Red Hat

If I understand correctly the Red Hat project was flying soviet bombers out of Area 51 for capability testing. Firstly is this correct? and secondly if it is then how were the foreign aircraft obtained in the first place? Thanks

When I clicked on the link I thought it was going to be about Linux! LOL

You may be right, I'm having a quick check and found this already:

Area 51 is home to the Red Hat Squadron - fliers of captured or stolen Soviet craft. In fact, Groom Lake has so many Soviet craft that fliers often call it Red Square. Started in the 60's, the Red Hats have been key to improving kill ratios in Vietnam, the Gulf and Serbia. Craft include Mig 21s & 23s and the advanced Su 27.
users.cihost.com...

A red hat is an American pilot who flies stolen and/or blackmarket Russian (enemy) planes. The red hat squadron is rumored to be/have been based at Groom Lake, aka Area 51.
www.everything2.com...

[edit on 23-10-2005 by AgentSmith]

DUPLICATE

[edit on 23-10-2005 by AgentSmith]

The 6513th Test Squadron "Red Hats" conducted technical evaluations of foreign aircraft types. The 4477th Test & Evaluation Squadron "Red Eagles" conducted tactical evaluations, as did Naval Air Test & Evaluation Squadron Four (VX-4).

The aircraft were acquired from friendly nations (Israel, Indonesia, Egypt, etc.) who either purchased them for their own arsenals or captured them during wartime. We also acquired Soviet type radar and threat systems, missiles and other hardware.

I have interviewed many of the pilots, maintainers, and engineers. These programs provided valuable information that helped improve the survivability of U.S. pilots in combat. Although crude by western standards, the Soviet airplanes proved robust and highly reliable. Through a technology exploitation program that grew over several decades, our pilots were able discover the airplanes' weaknesses in combat situations.

Good article about imaginary Su-27 Flankers for the US Navy:
www.flightjournal.com...



4477th TES ; Nellis AFB/TTR, NV, 'Red Eagles' - TAC
Nellis AFB Threat Training Facility - www.nellis.af.mil...

6513th TES ; Edwards AFB/North Base, CA, 'Red Hats' - 6510th TW - AFFTC - AFSC - (MiGs, Suchois, others)
- no links to unit - www.edwards.af.mil...

Air Development Squadron Four (VX-4) - no links to unit - www.navy.mil...

Here's a short list of designators from a website. Even with references, most of these are a best guess:

YF-110 MiG-21 www.fas.org...
YF-110B MiG-21
YF-110C MiG-21
YF-112 "used for a MiG"
YF-112C "used for a MiG"
YF-113 MiG-23 www.fas.org...
YF-113B MiG-23/27
YF-113E variant of the MiG-23
YF-113G a secret prototype, or MiG-23
YF-114C an unidentified MiG type
YF-114D unknown
F-116 rumour MiG-25
YF-117A Lockheed SENIOR TREND
YF-117D Northrop TACIT BLUE
YF-117E unrelated to the F-117A
F-118 rumour MiG-29
F-121 questionable delta aircraft
YF-1xx Boeing Bird of Prey
YF-24 Classified prototype
Source: www.designation-systems.net...

There was a show not to long ago about Area 51 and this guy was getting pictures of the base with a super high powered lense and he had pictures of what looked like a Mig-29 or a SU-27 parked in Area 51.





www.desertsecrets.com...

I am an Army guy and don't know much about the USAF, but I do know there is a sort of OPFOR aviation program somewhere out west known as Red Flag.

I used to work for Red Hat, what do you want to know?

you have to ask! Give us the dirt! *removed*

Mod Edit: be nice

[edit on 11/23/05 by FredT]

You may also want to look at HAVE DRILL and HAVE DONUT which I beleive were the code names for the testing of Migs at Groom lake

I believe your right Fred

Have drill Have donut

Thanks for the heads up.

I was most interested in how the aircraft were actually obtained, also dreamland resort have just updated their site with some really good powerpoint presentations with comparisons of soviet aircraft with american ones.

I do know of the red hats... I never did find out what they did exactly, but I have a pretty good idea.

As for Red Flag, I worked there from Jan 98-Aug 98 and again from Jan 04-October 05. Red Flag is currently designated as the 414th CTS (Combat Training Squadron). They were formerly known as the 4440th. Also, they are closely tied in with the 64th Agressor Squadron, and the soon to be activated 65th Agressors. Basically, Red Flag's purpose is to increase survivability for pilots in real world combat situations. There's even a Red Flag IMAX movie you can see if you can find an IMAX theater near you. They have one in Vegas (I was stationed at Nellis for just under 8 years).

I'm just a computer nerd in the Air Force, and I'm just as oblivious as the rest of the world as to what's going on. Even in the military, we only know what we need to as far as operations go. For anything else, you either have to know someone who's "in" or you just have to dig like hell to get the information you want.

The US designates stolen MIGs as they did with the Century Jets, F-somthin somthin somthin. I wonder how these Russian planes were stolen?

Do the Russians have stolen NATO aircraft painted in thier colours? I suppose they have Agressor squadrons too.

I bet these US Pilots like to Joyride these stolen fighters!.

The Soviet-type aircraft flown by the Red Hats and Red Eagles were borrowed and purchased from foreign countires friendly to the U.S. (i.e. Israel, Indonesia, Egypt, etc.).

The Soviets acquired American aircraft that were abandoned in Vietnam and Iran.

Reading the recent post and enjoying everyones opinions equally I must say one thing, the closest person to getting it right was the post right before mine, about acquiring forgein planes. My grandfather was the equivalant of Lieutenant General(in the united states) in the Russian air force. Now after reading all your post and comments I called him to ask him how Russia and the U.S. aquired each others air crafts, due to my lack of knowldege, this thread pecked my intrest. The United States aquired Russian Migs from shot down planes,and also they were aquired through "black markets" of sorts,just as criminals have "black markets" so do the goverments. Russia did the same, they bought U.S. planes for a heffty price from countrys with finacial instability, as did the U.S. . This is how my grandfather explained it to me, and I believe him due to his 35+ years in the Russian air force. Further more my grandfather had top security clearance in Russia working for the Ministry of Defense, but to this day he will not give any kind of detailed information as to anything of any kind of releavance. He is 76 and I am sure his years are numbered, hopefully he shares with me some intresting details before he dies.

Originally posted by gfad
I was most interested in how the aircraft were actually obtained

Well some of the older Migs we got from defectors but that don't seem to happen very often now with the fall of the USSR. Its likely we pay foreign countries that were sold Russian fighters alot of money for them.

I know we got our hands on Some M-29s Thanks to Germany. Not sure if we keep those but we got to play with them.

The downside of "buying" Russian Migs third party is that Russia does not sell its best tech very often. Its the same for the US you dont see them selling the Raptor. When one side does sell some of its better tech its often a nerfed version.

The only way your going to get cutting edge tech from either side is really Espionage and then making our own in house version from the stolen plans.Then you can run into a whole bunch of other problems like Double agents etc.. I know of one case where a Double agent working for the US gave the USSR plans for a multi rocket launch system that the US tried to build and failed badly at wasting millions of dollars. They gave these plans to Russia and they wasted millions on the same flawed system.



[edit on 9-12-2005 by ShadowXIX]

Originally posted by gfad
If I understand correctly the Red Hat project was flying soviet bombers out of Area 51 for capability testing. Firstly is this correct? and secondly if it is then how were the foreign aircraft obtained in the first place? Thanks

One correction: Red Hat flew fighters, not bombers. The Red Hat Program is actually a joint Air Force/CIA project that was first concieved be the CIA's Directorate of Science and Technology.

There are many ways the aircraft have been obtained over the years:

-A Mig 21 was captured during Viet Nam
-Soviet Pilot Victor Bilanco Gave the CIA his Mig 25 Foxbat after his defection to the west in the earily 70's
-A captured YAK-8 (I think) was loaned to the US by Israel's intelligence services

These are the few that I can think of off hand.

Tim