What is this on the rear of a Mercury dime?

Pillar like with an axe head?

Ok, the column like object is, according to 2006 Black Book price guide to American Coins, " a bundle of fasces or sticks with an axe protruding. In Roman times, an imperial or senatorial procession was often accompanied by "fasces bearers" who carried these bundles of wood sticks throughout the streets. Their meaning was supposedly symbolic but they likewise served a practical function: when dusk fell they could be lighted to illuminate the path." Whatever the symbolic function was isn't mentioned. Hope that helps

Its a fasces. (fah cheys)

The fasces was a common symbol of the romans.They picked it up probably from the the etruscans (who are supposed to be descended from the lydians in what is now turkey), amoung whom its made with a double headed axe. The double headed axe is sometimes thought to represent zeus.


The Fasces was an actual item, carried by Roman civil officials called Lictors, who usually accompany senators and other high offials. A Lictor is sacrosant I beleive, which means that you can't do them any physical harm, nor really even touch them.
There's a famous story where Rome was threatened by an army, and a line of Lictors marched out to the field, carrying the fasces. So powerful was the implication of the symbol, that they'd have to face the entire force and powr of the Roman State if they wanted to cross that line, that they simply retreated.

The Fasces is a bundle of rods, the word itself means bundle, with an axe in the middle. The axe represents the Supreme Authority of the State over Life and Death, iow, only the state may execute a citizen. The rods, weak on their own and breakable, are bound together, oft by red velvet ribbons, and are thus unbreakable. This is the disparate parts of the Roman civilization, bound together by the State itself, and thus indefatiguable and invincible. The rods can also be withdrawn from the bundle, and used to beat a person as punishment, thus showing that the state can kill, or choose to punish, and is thus the administrator of Justice. Sometimes its made without an Axe.

Its used all over europe now, as a symbol of the Civil State and Society, Classical Values and the like. Thats why you find it on french passports, Swiss Canton Flags, and even in the US Senate House and lots of Coinage.

Washington resting an arm on a Fasces.
Mussolini adopted it as the rather natural symbol of his party, because of its classical connotations, and also because, apparently, an italian word for 'peasant' or 'worker in the field' sounds like fasces, and the national-socializing partys appealed to the working class.

Thanks for the great descriptions and pictures guys.

Originally posted by Nygdan
They picked it up probably from the the etruscans (who are supposed to be descended from the lydians in what is now turkey)

The supposed descent of the Etruscans from the Lydians is fairly unlikely. The claim comes from Herodotus, who says the Tyrrhenians came from Lydia, and some believe that the Tyrrhenians were the Etruscans. However, there's no evidence to connect the Tyrrhenians with the Etruscans. Most likely, the Etruscans were autochthonous to Etruria.

Originally posted by Lexicon

Originally posted by Nygdan
They picked it up probably from the the etruscans (who are supposed to be descended from the lydians in what is now turkey)

The supposed descent of the Etruscans from the Lydians is fairly unlikely. The claim comes from Herodotus, who says the Tyrrhenians came from Lydia, and some believe that the Tyrrhenians were the Etruscans. However, there's no evidence to connect the Tyrrhenians with the Etruscans.

I've never heard this argument before. Certainly would be interesting. Who are the tyrrhenians supposed to be then if not the etruscans?

Regardless of this identity with the tyrrhenians, there is at lemnos an artifact with etruscan like writting on it that is variably thought to be a remnant of an eastern population or a projection of the etruscans into there.

A very interesting development tho is that genetic tests were done on etruscan remains, and they 'match' populations in western turkey.

The fasces is used in the US House Chamber as well





Who says Rome was destroyed?

Originally posted by Nygdan
I've never heard this argument before. Certainly would be interesting. Who are the tyrrhenians supposed to be then if not the etruscans?

I couldn't tell you. I think there are plenty of unknown 'races' of people spoken about in the ancient sources, so they would be just one of many.

Regardless of this identity with the tyrrhenians, there is at lemnos an artifact with etruscan like writting on it that is variably thought to be a remnant of an eastern population or a projection of the etruscans into there.

I recall having read something about that, but I'm unsure of the full implications. As you say, it could be a projection into Lemnos of Etruscan (or proto-Etruscan) culture.

A very interesting development tho is that genetic tests were done on etruscan remains, and they 'match' populations in western turkey.

That is interesting, indeed. Do you know where I could find the results of these tests? I always thought that type of genetic testing could only be done between two or more extant populations, and not between an extant one and the remains of another, since the genetic material left after burial for hundreds to thousands of years would make useful comparison impossible.

...just, wow.

I thought of myself as a pretty inquisitive person, but totally missed it each time I saw it.

Of course, now that I've said it, I can't find the paper, i was looking for a little while. This html version of a paper is the closest I could find, but it only seems to be talking about gene flow.

Man I wish I could applaud Moderators.

Actually that was the article, and I had originally heard about it in
The news and views part from Nature 428, 484

The researchers obtained mitochondrial DNA sequences from 80 Etruscans
who lived between the seventh and third centuries BC, and whose
skeletons are preserved in museum and public collections. They
excluded samples that might have been significantly degraded or
contaminated with modern DNA.


When the sequences of individual Etruscans buried in different regions
were compared, they showed relatively little genetic variation. This
suggests that the Etruscans were a single population descended from
common ancestors, rather than a collection of genetically different
groups who shared a common culture.

When compared with sequences of modern-day Europeans, the Etruscans
appear most closely related to populations on the southern and eastern
Mediterranean shores. The best matches are with sequences from Tuscany
and Turkey, hinting that the Etruscans evolved from local populations
and that there was some interbreeding with populations in Asia Minor,
which fits historical trading records. Nonetheless, few of the
Etruscan sequences exactly match modern ones — signifying, perhaps,
that the population rapidly died out after being swallowed by the
Roman Empire.

Interesting no?

I also was able to get my hands on a rather theoretical paper a little while ago. Like I say its somewhat theoretical but makes some intersting obsrvations. Its primarily concerned with where ancient lydia was, the author feels that its been misplaced, so to speak.
The origins of the Etruscans

here's a pdf of the Population Study
www.savefile.com...

And here's another that looks relevant, but I haven't looked over it yet.
www.savefile.com...

but this is a fasces thread, not an etruscan thread so I should prolly stop raht thur.

edit to add:
ha ha, thanks KL, but I think all our hands would get worn out with some of the great stuff the rest of the staff and you present@!

[edit on 14-10-2005 by Nygdan]

Originally posted by Nygdan
Interesting no?

It is, but while I haven't yet read the articles, the bit that you quoted seems to be saying that the Etruscans were native to Tuscany with an admixture of other blood, no? The fact that the similarities go not only to the eastern Mediterranean but also to the south--does that not perhaps mean that various scattered Mediterranean non-Indo-European peoples were related further back? Anyway, I'll have to read the papers when I have some time and post again.


[edit on 14-10-2005 by Lexicon]

Mussolini adopted it as the rather natural symbol of his party, because of its classical connotations, and also because, apparently, an italian word for 'peasant' or 'worker in the field' sounds like fasces, and the national-socializing partys appealed to the working class.

Interesting.....My Dad was in Italy during WWII, he said that the Italians would ask the soldiers for American coins, but when given a dime, they would spit on it and throw it on the ground. When asked why, they would show them this very symbol and say what sounded, to him, like "facists"......

Originally posted by Lexicon
does that not perhaps mean that various scattered Mediterranean non-Indo-European peoples were related further back?

THe paper concludes that there was gene flow between the population in turkey and the population in tuscany, and that there were also injections from other parts also. Of course, its just a single paper so it can't support too too much.

frayed1, thats a pretty intersting story, I'd never heard it before, thanks.

Originally posted by frayed1

Mussolini adopted it as the rather natural symbol of his party, because of its classical connotations, and also because, apparently, an italian word for 'peasant' or 'worker in the field' sounds like fasces, and the national-socializing partys appealed to the working class.

Interesting.....My Dad was in Italy during WWII, he said that the Italians would ask the soldiers for American coins, but when given a dime, they would spit on it and throw it on the ground. When asked why, they would show them this very symbol and say what sounded, to him, like "facists"......

the term fascism is indeed the root of the world fascist. Mussolinni, the founder of the fascisimo party, tapped on the indentification Italians have long had for the glory of the Roman Republic and empire. Other movements - including a strong party in the US in the 1930's, embraced the concept of a fascist style of government.

When the founders of the newly-minted United States were formulating our identity, they identified with Rome. This fascination with the classical world was a sweeping movement expressed in politics and architecture in particular. The fasces on the back of the Mercury dime likely is a representation of the power of the rule of law and the gravitas of the American republic.

Alex Jones talks about those things and how they were a big nazi symbol in gernmany and they are also to the right of the speaker in the US Congress.