What's taking so long (Police State, NWO, etc)?

Crakeur,

You are correct that the Saudi Royals do currently "control" much of the oil in the middle east. However, a brief reading of the history of middle east oil will quickly reveal that most of this power has only been obtained over the past few decades, many decades after the initial discoveries of oil. The British, French, and Americans have all had their hands in the pot from the beginning. And even today, the Saudi's are not at liberty to just do as they please with the oil output. Look at how they say "how high?" when western powers say "jump" (output). OPEC has given them a much better bargaining position, but I don't want to change this thread and will try to stay on topic. One typical example of middle-east history is as follows:

...The newly found wealth was beyond the financial understanding of the sheikh of Abu Dhabi as he spent his money foolishly and unwisely. In addition, he openly admitted that he did not trust banks and, most worryingly of all for the British, that he distrusted foreigners and foreign companies. The British conspired with his brother and the other sheikhs to have this troublesome ruler removed in 1966. This bloodless coup was to be the last major political undertaking by the British in the area.

Besides, your post assumes that the Saudis can dictate terms to the rest of the world, which the example of Saddam shows is a mistake.

My point is that you cannot assume that the view of history that you read in a textbook is the whole truth. History is much more interesting when one keeps collusion, conspiracy and corruption (which we all admit happens to some extent) in mind while reading it. Open your mind to the possibility, and eventually the probability, that world events ARE decided by a very few, select conspirators. The conspirators may come and go, after all their own initiations emphasize death and the brevity of mans aspirations, but the game is the same. A family fortune is squandered.. they are lost to the conspiracy. A self-made man becomes a billionaire within decades, he is "initiated", accepted into the fold. Now, not all of those who are "worthy" will be "tapped." And not all of those who are "tapped" will accept. But an individual with the cajones to refuse is a rare human indeed. And many a man can unwittingly be "used" by the conspiracy. Many of these groups consider wealthy men who join their ranks for the prestige to be "useful."

Like I mentioned before, not knowing what is going to happen 400 years from now does not mean that I cannot position myself or my offspring to benefit REGARDLESS of what happens. If uranium is found on the moon there are certain people who will be the first to know, and they will use that information to their advantage.

The reason that now is such a critical juncture is that these groups now the technology exists that would allow a more overt level of control. Gradually, the common man has been moved from a position of self-sufficiency and self-determination toward one of dependence and subservience.

Does this help? I'm not asking you to believe in any grand conspiracy, I'm just trying to point out that you are hung up on a detail that I don't think is relevant to whether or not it exists. 400 years, 600 years, 10,000 years, what does it matter? Can the Prince of Wales not trace his heratige for more than 1200 years? So, somehow his family managed to preserve their fortunes regardless of being unable to see the impact of the printing-press, the ballpoint pen, or the internet. Don't doubt that planning and quiet discussions of murder around a conspirator's candlelight did not play a role.

By the way, Oprah is probably not (I am not going to say for sure) part of any conspiracy. She is too good-natured for that. She does however, serve her purpose (30% or so of adult females are glued to the TV opiate while I write this.)

Crakeur
I respect your opinions but I do think that you have missed the entire point. A NWO isn't people going house to house with ar-15's telling you what to do or not do. It is a way for the ultra-rich elitists to maintain their control over the reins over the world through finance. Those who control the money, control the power. The elitists are few and the underclass are the rest of the population of the world. It is a new form of slavery. Economic and social. Wars are financed to affect the worth of currency in most cases. As I have also read, they are to collect on debts not paid. Don't get it twisted though because every move is planned and calculated as to not let the public know the truth behind the lies.

Also Oprah is new money and still considered an entertainer in her field as she doesn't really report news. She is also only worth billions, not a actual billionaire. We are speaking upon people with actual power and people with "old money". people with money thats been in their family for at least fifty or more years. Some with money centuries old.

Just check this www.prisonplanet.com... Or this
www.freepressinternational.com...

[edit on 26-10-2005 by Infra_red]

oprah is worth billions and yet she's not a billionaire. she can buy some of your old world families.

your theories are nothing more than paranoia. if this old world ruling class existed, people like the google guys would never make it to their current status. Bill Gates wouldn't have what he has.


I get it. I am just not afraid to admit that my station in life is my doing.; It might have been easier or harder for me to get to where I am, depending on my background but I have the power to better myself and I have the power to become a homeless waste of space.

no secret powers stopping me.

Originally posted by Crakeur
oprah is worth billions and yet she's not a billionaire. she can buy some of your old world families.

your theories are nothing more than paranoia. if this old world ruling class existed, people like the google guys would never make it to their current status. Bill Gates wouldn't have what he has.

This idea you just presented is nothing more than an assumption that in no way detracts from the idea that the world is controlled from behind the scenes by a few power elite. Bill Gates and Oprah or any similar "celebrities" or "rich business owners" do not pose much threat to anyone. Yes they have money and they are public figures, but that only means they must watch what they say.

I get it. I am just not afraid to admit that my station in life is my doing.; It might have been easier or harder for me to get to where I am, depending on my background but I have the power to better myself and I have the power to become a homeless waste of space.

no secret powers stopping me.

But you are dependant on the economy, those who own it are not. If they pull the strings that hold up the economy and it crashes, so does your wealth, so does Bill Gates, so does Oprah, and everyone else for that matter who depends on the economy. Who does not go down are the string pullers. The wealth of the world does not go anywhere, only the representation of it in "currency", which is what everyone is so invested in, and what can become worthless overnight.

The question is then, are there such elite who rule the world out of the view of the public's eye?

The answer is very simple. It is the nature of man to seek power and control of one another, and to conspire to maintain this power and control through lies and secrecy - it has always been this way and is clearly obvious throughout the entire history of mankind. If you only look at our fake democracy in US, at the constant lies and propaganda coming from our government, at the secret black projects and the miraculously "billions" that are lost without a trace out of government hands, the UFO coverup, the fake war on terror, etc - it seems plainly obvious that there are levels above levels above levels of control and secrecy and the public is NOT told "all there is to know".

This manipulation and control of the public through lies, spin, distortion, and emotional hooks is plainly obvious even from our "elected" public officials. And they do not hide the fact that they hide things from us - they say it is "necessary" for national security, and that we should just believe them on their word. Of course, considering that they are constantly lying to us in order to benefit themselves in pretty much everything else they say and do, it seems like only the most naive will believe that all this secrecy is "for our own good", when in fact NOTHING our government has ever done was for anyone's good but their own, despite their convictions to the contrary. By their fruits shall you know them.

And this only from those you CAN see. What about those who finance them, who put them into positions of power due to their connections and influence? What about those who control our "government" from behind the scenes due to their control of the economy? What about those who control even THOSE individuals because THEY placed them into economic controls to begin with? Don't forget such groups as Skull & Bones whose entire purpose is to do precisely that - to create a network that places its members into positions of power and wealth in order to maintain control of the world, or a certain part of it. The question is, how high "up" do such "groups" go?

It seems you just go by appearances - you don't SEE the elite so you conclude they don't exist. Yet it seems whichever level of control you look at, there is always a level above that that controls them and that they clearly listen to. Sometimes you don't know WHO is at that higher level, but you can see clear signs that that level exists. But more than just the evidence, you can deduce the existance of that level simply by critically thinking about human nature and the way humanity has behaved itself throughout its history. Power, secrecy, and control have always been used to have total control over the population of the world, and the only thing that changed is the appearances. If you think that all those "selfish power-hungry psychopaths" suddenly just died out and all the good "democratic" people-loving leaders suddenly came about out of nowhere, it's simply not true. It seems all that changed is the way those selfish psychopaths conduct their public appearances. They learned that if the public is conditioned from birth to believe that they are free and they choose their own government and there is nothing beyond that, they are content. However, freedom only comes from knowledge because knowledge gives one the ability to choose, and yet the public is kept ignorant of pretty much everything their government does, we're just expected to take their word for it and "trust" our leaders. However, in the entire history of mankind, no leader has ever done anything for the benefit of the people - except when he HAS to in order to maintain appearances and to keep the population content.

And yet despite all this you claim it's all just a paranoid theory. If anything, the idea that the world is NOT ruled by a handful of powerful elite is a delusional theory that contradicts all the evidence to the contrary.

[edit on 27-10-2005 by lilblam]

Originally posted by lilblamAnd yet despite all this you claim it's all just a paranoid theory. If anything, the idea that the world is NOT ruled by a handful of powerful elite is a delusional theory that contradicts all the evidence to the contrary

please show me evidence of a handful (5) of elite leaders controlling the world.

the New World Order, which has been feared for centuries cannot still be working towards their final goal. (assuming they every did actully exist). Technology and outside forces, beyond their control, have made it impossible for one small group of people to control the world.

you are all interchanging really rich and powerful with New World Order. That's not the same thing.

scroll back and read some of the illuminati and NWO arguments. This is a plot dating back to the 1400's or some other nonsense. This is not about the Kennedy family being part of the NWO. or the Rockefellers. or the Morgans.

Originally posted by Crakeur

please show me evidence of a handful (5) of elite leaders controlling the world....
This is a plot dating back to the 1400's or some other nonsense. This is not about the Kennedy family being part of the NWO. or the Rockefellers. or the Morgans.

A) Have you read any of the links regarding Bilderburg, CFR, Trilateral Commission?

B) If you are referring to the Illuminati, that dates back to the late 1700s, not the 1400s.

Look, you are obviously ready to dismiss the whole thing as "nonsense" without even a rough idea of the outline of events. I suggest that if you are so determined that such a group or groups do not exist that you will not even bother to read provided links, or respond to legitimate points, that you are wasting your time on this thread.

well, I had a long response but I accidentally deleted it.

here's the gist:

Bill Gates was dismissed as being new money or something. His wife was invited to Bilderburg in the past. So she's NWO, he's not? How do you think she hides the secret symbol branded into her flesh?

Is Bilderburg NWO or Trilateral? Both? I don't get how they could both be and yet the member lists aren't identical. two dueling factions? if that's the case, it ain't a new world order, it's a battle for that title. either way, they are hardly secretive so I guess there's no point in them denying the NWO. Might as well fess up, put their faces on the new money and call it a day.

since they are clearly her, why not accept it. there's no way you can change 400 years in the planning. It isn't possible. If this is the NWO, I am fine with it. I expected internment camps, and other world domination type behavior. Maybe I have some bloodline connection because I'm making a decent living and fairly happy with my position in society.

with regards to the dating, well, the spanish version dates back to the 1400s, the french to the 1600's. kind of odd that spain had one, france had one and bavaria had one too but I guess anything is possible since every religion somehow has a festive gift giving holiday in the same two week period in the winter and a more somber, serious holiday in the same two week period in the spring. what are the odds that one of the religions based their holiday on a religion that existed before theirs? slim to none - I know.

you won't convince me. not because I am blind to the concept. you won't convince me becuase this dates back to a time whe a few men could arrange to take over the world and yet, hundreds of years later, with technological advances never dreamed of, population booms, expanding societies and a world that is almost entirely different from the one when this was originally planned, they still haven't managed to finish their goal. that's comical to me. I would never plan something now with the hopes that in 300 years my heirs heirs heirs will see to fruition. what if that great great great great grandson is a moron? all that work so stumpy can blow it off to smoke dope with his friends?

if you want something done right, do it yourself. these folks relied on way too many people and they would have probably not planned for all the changes to our societies. wait. that's it. the reason for the delay is because they are constantly working on the upgraded version to the initial plan. no time to implement.

Wait, Above Top Secret is suppose to be the resistance!?
If the NWO are looking at this, I'm just talking with these guys and girls.

Originally posted by Crakeur
So she's NWO, he's not? How do you think she hides the secret symbol branded into her flesh?

Who says there is some "symbol" branded? And worrying about how she hides the symbol is useless until you have established that there is a branded symbol on someone for some reason.

Is Bilderburg NWO or Trilateral? Both? I don't get how they could both be and yet the member lists aren't identical. two dueling factions? if that's the case, it ain't a new world order, it's a battle for that title.

There is no title, only control. There is always battle for control and there are many factions. Some simply integrate into and become part of other, more powerful factions. Very much like gangs behave.

either way, they are hardly secretive so I guess there's no point in them denying the NWO. Might as well fess up, put their faces on the new money and call it a day.

You assume there most be some "new" money for it to be NWO? NWO is about control, about hiding knowledge from others, not about playing a part that you expect it to play and to fulfill your preconceived notions about what it is and what it isn't. I wouldn't even use the term NWO, again, because the order already exists and has always existed. Nothing fundementally new will happen except perhaps a change in outer appearances in the near future.

since they are clearly her, why not accept it. there's no way you can change 400 years in the planning. It isn't possible.

Anything is possible. Don't confuse improbable and impossible. And you do not have the knowledge to even begin to assess the probabilityof this because you are in denial about the possible reality of the situation. So you are making an assumption, assuming that the age alone of a plan has anything to do with the probability that it comes to fruition.

If this is the NWO, I am fine with it. I expected internment camps, and other world domination type behavior.

That's just it - you anticipate/expect a certain preconceived notion of "NWO" that may very well have absolutely NOTHING to do with the reality of the situation. Assumptions/expectations only lead away from knowledge of reality as it is.

Maybe I have some bloodline connection because I'm making a decent living and fairly happy with my position in society.

Many black slaves were happy being slaves too once they got used to it, often times even identifying with their masters in much the same way that victims of kidnapping or hostage situation can identify with their captors in what is known as the Stockholm Syndrome. A hampster can also be happy in a cage running on a wheel - but he's still in a cage.

Look back to Nazi Germany - it was very prosperous economically and socially during Hitler's era, but nevertheless was a ruthless fascist dictatorship. And yet the people were happy. You know what they say, ignorance is bliss.

you won't convince me.

Then why are you still pretending to be interested? Your mind is made up, you have set your mind on a conclusion and thus were never interested in the truth to begin with, because you never truly questioned the reality and instead choose to retain your preconceived world view, period.

not because I am blind to the concept. you won't convince me becuase this dates back to a time whe a few men could arrange to take over the world and yet, hundreds of years later, with technological advances never dreamed of, population booms, expanding societies and a world that is almost entirely different from the one when this was originally planned, they still haven't managed to finish their goal.

Again you assume to know what their goal is, and you base your conclusions on yet ANOTHER assumption. So again you demonstrate your lack of desire to seek truth in this matter.

that's comical to me. I would never plan something now with the hopes that in 300 years my heirs heirs heirs will see to fruition. what if that great great great great grandson is a moron? all that work so stumpy can blow it off to smoke dope with his friends?

You make ANOTHER assumption that "heirs" or "grandsons" are in any way related to this plan, or that these people even have heirs or grandsons at all. And again you base your conclusions on yet ANOTHER assumption which onec again further demonstrates that you never cared for the truth to begin with, you are perfectly content with your preconceived notions, assumptions, and established-in-stone world view. So why waste everyone's time by asking questions that you never cared to know the answers to in the first place?

these folks relied on way too many people and they would have probably not planned for all the changes to our societies. wait. that's it. the reason for the delay is because they are constantly working on the upgraded version to the initial plan. no time to implement.

Who says the plan is not being implemented exactly as it was designed? You assume to know what the plan is to begin with once again, and because YOUR personal preconceived expectations and assumptions of how things "should be" are not fulfilled, you assume that the entire thing is made up. Yet the only thing that is made up are your assumptions, which inevitably lead you away from reality. The future is open, and the timing/details of certain things change, and yet, other things remain true.

But you've said everything when you said,

You won't convince me.

You're absolutely right about that. And I recommend that everyone heed your own warning and stop wasting their time answering questions that were never truly asked in the first place.

[edit on 27-10-2005 by lilblam]

I too would say it's been millennia in the making, and that the NWO planners have to be subtle. I believe Kissinger said that right now (whenever he said it) people despise the idea of foreign troops...but at some point there will be a time where we'll actually welcome them.

I would also venture to say that things happen according to God's timetable. He will allow things to happen--but on His time, not man's. I heard that the NWO shills wanted it implemented by 2000, and here we are in 2005.

It'll eventually be here. Just be ready for it.

lilblam,
the back and forth helps kill the day. unfortunately, you are now trying to pick apart the sarcasm in my responses. Do I think there's new money? no is there a branding? no

no will always be the answer because I don't believe in the the conspiracy.

Originally posted by lilblam. You know what they say, ignorance is bliss.

trying to compare how I am happy with my life with nazis and slaves is real appropriate. I am my own master thank you very much (well, the wife is but you know how that is). for all you know I could be wealthy and powerful beyond yourwildest dreams let alone my own. I could also be working 4 jobs and still barely have enough money to feed my family. whatever the case, I put myself there and I accept that. there is no external forces nudging me one way or blocking another way. rather than constantly blame others for their shortcomings, people should try staring in the mirror instead.

I will repeat. don't call me ignorant because I am not blaming some imaginary keyser soze for the problems in my life.

I think when the time is right, and an "attack" happens, that will be the time wen we are ordered to stay put and the poop will hit the fan.
I beleive this will happen sooner rather than later.

Originally posted by Crakeur
lilblam,

unfortunately, you are now trying to pick apart the sarcasm in my responses.
no will always be the answer because I don't believe in the the conspiracy.

It's hard to tell what is sarcasm and when you're serious! And there is no need to ever believe anything, belief never EVER leads to truth. Never believe, never assume. Seek evidence, and think critically. There is no proof for anything, so you won't find absolute proof. But there is plenty of evidence which, when taken together, draws a highly probable picture.

trying to compare how I am happy with my life with nazis and slaves is real appropriate. I am my own master thank you very much (well, the wife is but you know how that is).

My point is not to compare you to nazis, slaves, or hampsters directly. It is to point out that being happy and THINKING that you are in control does not mean that you truly are in control, or that your happiness is not merely a result of a lack of knowledge of objective reality, which may be entirely different than how you may perceive the world. For example, chickens in chicken farms aren't aware of them being essentially slaves in an enclosed farm bred to be killed and eaten. Many Americans aren't aware that their own government, with the assitance of Israeli government, created false terror groups like Al Qaeda and was responsible for 911 attack on its own people to *drumroll* further the agenda of certain shadow elite for our planet. Though at their level, our government simply did the bidding of Israel.

And again my point is, it is easy thinking that you are free and to be happy and all the while not seeing reality as it is. If those same people who think our country is a democracy, our government is just and good, and our country was attacked by foreign terrorists realised all these things are complete frabrications, and their entire lives were a lie, all that they did was out of the belief for this life - would they still think themselves just as free, and would they be just as happy?

For all you know I could be wealthy and powerful beyond yourwildest dreams let alone my own.
I could also be working 4 jobs and still barely have enough money to feed my family. whatever the case, I put myself there and I accept that. there is no external forces nudging me one way or blocking another way. rather than constantly blame others for their shortcomings, people should try staring in the mirror instead.

Ah but your assumption (not sarcasm I hope) is that the only reason people think that there exists a shadowy power that controls the world is because they want to evade responsibility for their own condition, and want someone to blame for their problems. I agree, that is often the case. But to assume that this is the case ALL the time is a terrible mistake, and is simply untrue. Although you have a valid point, don't let it blind you to the other possibilities.

It is the same as saying that everyone who suspects their government of lying to them is simply politically biased because the guy they voted for did not get the job, so they try to make the current administration look bad because they are upset. Again, this may be true in some cases, but to assume it is true for ALL cases is a huge mistake. And yet many people do make that assumption in order to avoid facing the scary possibility that they may very well be right. It's often easier to believe a comfortable lie than consider an uncomfortable potential truth.

Similarly, I can tell you that I am perfectly content with my situation in life, and yet I can clearly see a global conspiracy that goes beyond what even most conspiracy theorists assume exists. And I do know that this administration is consistantly lying to its people, and I did not have a preference for which "party" to be in office, because once again, I realise that it makes very little difference.

But please, don't let yourself be persuaded or convinced by me or anyone else! That won't help you see any better, anyone can believe anything, it doesn't help them KNOW anything though. Do your research and try to think without assumptions or "sacred cows". Without expectations or beliefs or preconceptions. Drop everything you know or think you know about the NWO, and start from scratch. It'll take time and effort, and a LOT of thinking and connecting the dots. But the picture will emerge and it will begin to be clearer and clearer until such a point where the existance of a "shadow government" that pulls the strings will be undeniable. And you won't be paranoid, or just looking for someone to blame - you'll simply be seeing a very unpleasant reality. But if at any point you simply make up your mind, you'll have abandoned the road to truth. Maybe I am wrong, but simply based on what I know and see, I simply assign a very high probability that the reality I described is at least very close to what really exists. I can never be certain, and that's the beauty and the reality of seeking answers - there are no absolute certainties, only probabilities based on evidence, based on your understanding of humanity and the world, objectively.

It is not at all easy to see it at first, just as it was nearly impossible for German people to see the Nazi party for what it truly was. And those few who did see it, were ridiculed, made fun of, and later persecuted. So is it not naive of us today to assume that although the entire nation of Germany (and historically other nations) were so easily fooled, including the rest of the world, that NOW we would just see through such lies? I think it would be extremely naive, it would be wishful thinking at BEST.

And seeing Hitler or Bush as they truly are is not nearly as difficult as it is to see the levels above them pulling the strings. So if so many people back in Nazi Germany could not see even their own government in its true light due to the massive lies and propaganda, and so many people today cannot see US government in its true light, what chance is there for these people to see a deeper level that goes far beyond the public administration? Some people would think that the idea that their government may be lying is a wild conspiracy theory with no evidence. Those who see the lies think that a higher level than that is a wild conspiracy theory with no evidence. Those who see the workings of the shadow elite think the idea of hyperdimentional alien forces above that is a crazy crack-pot idea with no evidence. But the truth exists whether people believe it or not, and the evidence becomes progressively more difficult to see. OF COURSE it won't be obvious, the whole point is to deceive the world, and they do it VERY well.

So all I am saying is, if you TRULY wish to know if there is ANY truth to this, then ask sincerely, have NO assumptions or preconceived notions AT ALL - and think CRITICALLY and try to see the objective reality as best as you can. Do research. Think. Don't believe anything one way or another.

You ARE ignorant, and so am I, and so is everyone else. Ignorance is relative. We are ALL ignorant relative to someone else, who in turn is ignorant relative someone else, and so on. The question is though, to what degree are we ignorant, and are we working on stripping ourselves of false beliefs and deceptive world views that were conditioned believe were true, or are we holding on to them for dear life with no intention to put them to the test? And yes, it does burn. The more deeply-held beliefs are stripped away and exposed as merely lies, the more it hurts. But as a result you feel more free and start seeing things more and more objectively, meaning, start approaching reality of how things truly are, instead of how you assumed they were, or were taught they were.

But anyways, it's upto you. Don't expect the truth on this thread or any other thread, you won't find it. Not because it is not there in parts, but because even if it is, you won't know it until you do your own research, put in your own effort to figure it out without any sacred cows at all. Until then you and everyone else will just frequent some conspiracy forums discussing things to death with NO progress being made. Personal effort and dedication and constant removal of "sacred beliefs" is the only way I know of to learn to see objective reality, or at least come closer to it than you were before. No one can claim to have the ultimate truth (ok er they can claim, but so can anyone else) - there is ALWAYAS something beyond that which you already know, always a level deeper. But learning is fun

-Mike

[edit on 27-10-2005 by lilblam]