Satan is our free will?

The Bible is mostly written in parables! So maybe there was never a Serpant or a Devil, maybe it is our own free will that was givin us when God created us. Could He have been explaining our human nature in a parable? Maybe the tree was a symbol. Eve heard her own mind speaking, not Satan. Just a thought that popped in my mind tonight!

That's a thought provoking idea you have there. Who knows what the bible means?

I mean, the interpretations are the interpretations of man, who is fallable.. who has his own agenda (Kind James, etc.)

I am truely baffled by a lot of the bible and I am not sure if we are supposed to think of it as a sort of reference and go by your common sense as to right and wrong or what.

Thank you! For responding! I could be way off! Just a thought!

May I ask you a question?

What makes you ponder this subject so much? Because of how far fetched some of the bible is I just really cannot bring myself to think about it too often, the Bible itself, I mean.

Just curious.

You know, life is a big ole puzzle. Good gracious, and then we (as Christians) are supposed to live by a book that is a big ole puzzle too!

It can be very overwhelming at times.

Where do you get your inspiration to study and try to figure it out?

Things that have happened and are happening to me in my life and I guess i am searching for answers!

Some ancient texts describe satan more as a prosecuter for God, God's D.A., in charge of meting out the penalties to those who disregard God's rules. In that model, I can see how satan would be very unpopular among our ranks, since he would be the figure we would not want to come see us. In many ancient theistic traditions, there is a deity who bestows the gift of illumination, or enlightenment on mankind, against the wishes of his fellow Gods. He catches heck for it, and becomes an outcast in the community, or worse, is punished for it. Prometheus is one name for this lightbringer, Lucifer is another. The serpent is also often a character who grants us wisdom, in various old traditional religions.

Originally posted by uplander
What makes you ponder this subject so much? Because of how far fetched some of the bible is I just really cannot bring myself to think about it too often, the Bible itself, I mean.

It can be very overwhelming at times.

Where do you get your inspiration to study and try to figure it out?

Well he wasnt exactly pondering the WHOLE Bible, just the portions of genisis from what I can read. From what I've learned, you can take it from the vaticans view point or you can go about discovering the bible the way protistants do; sola scriptura, self interpertation of the bible.

Here is how the story of Satan worked from what I was taught. God made all the angles and such and among them was one, whose name meant bringer of light, named Lucifer. God then tested his creations, and told them, "One day you all shall bow down to a man." Lucifer, being the nearest in likeness to God, refused this. Him and all the angels that agreed with him also left with him from Heaven.

Well that was pretty wattered down, but thats the jist of it.
Key facts : Angels are greater than Humans, God told them that one day they would bow down to a human. To many of the angels this was absurd.

Why would God ask this? Simple. A test for when he sent his son to become man. The angels would have to bow down to a man. One named Jesus.

How does this relate?

Lucifer, the light bringer, represents the action of a choice in our human nature. Is he bad? Well I doubt in the way that Hollywood portrays him. Withought satan around, there never would be a choice, an opertunity to chose one over the other.

Whether a physical or spritual satan exists is purley up for debate, but regardless, real or not, he still represtens the same manestefation of the same thing. A choice

Flowers love the sunshine, but its the rain that makes them grow.

If you choose to look at life as a fight between good and evil then you have to accept that the lessons you will learn will come from one or the other.

The lessons from the good you do build up and you begin to think you've done so much good you've earned a good screw up. You can honestly justify screwing over someone else with all the good you think you've done. Psychologist call it gold stamping. You get so many of those gold stamps they can justify anything.

The lessons from the bad things you've done seem to hang around though. They haunt you, they hurt you. they teach you that hurting others is wrong, regardless of the justifiacation you chose to do what you did.

Flowers love the sunshine, but its the rain that makes them grow.

You can call the rain what you will. Satan, Evil, sheer bad luck. That does not change the fact you will learn more from it then you ever will from a sunny day.

Wupy

Yes, the Bible has a few parables and the Bible will let you know when it is a parable. The Bible is not for the interpretation by men rather than the Bible will interperate its self. See (KJV) 2 Peter 1:20 "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."

Here something that will really bake your noodle. Try telling a satanist that satan dos not exist. lol

Anyways, what is that old saying.. Oh yeah "The greatest trick the devil ever pulled on the world was convincing us he didn't exist." -Verbal Kent (Kevin Spacey)-
from the movie the Usual Suspects

you cite no biblical evidence disproving the literal satan or proving that satan = free will. here is some biblical verses dealing with the subject. There are more i might have missed.

www.belowtopsecret.com...

quoting myself from before in part.

matt 4:1
matt 13:39
matt 25:41 (this is a big one)
luke 4:5
john 8:44
ephesians 4:27
ephesians 6:11
1 titus 3:6-7
james 4:7
1john 3:10
Jude 1:9 (this is a big one)
rev 2:10
rev 12:9 (great one that gives other names)
rev 20:2, 10.

other names
ephesians 2:2
1Jo 2:18
john 16:11
1 corinthians 5:5
luke 10:18

ok now for OLD TESTAMENT
Genesis 3
1 chronicles 21:1
job CHAPTER 1-2
psalms 109:6
zechariah 3:2

Ezekiel 28
Isiah 14

The whole freewill thing is my theory too! God and Satan...Good and bad....etc.. They are states of mind and the bible is merely a set of basic guidelines for humanity. It's a great read, but then again so was High Fidelity.

The ten commandments are (in my view), THE most important aspect of the book, Satan is the embodiment of opposing these rules.

The Bible, like was mentioned earlier is just too far fetched and the catholic church has managed over the last 2000 years to manipulate the bible and shape it into whatever they wanted.

Good post

[edit on 5-10-2005 by Monkfish]

Originally posted by GameSetMatch
Here something that will really bake your noodle. Try telling a satanist that satan dos not exist.

lol

Actually, if they subscribe to the Anton LaVey "Church of Satan" belief system they would agree with you.

One of the basics of LaVey's "Satanic Bible" is that Satan doesn't exist and is instead, man's free will.

So Michigan_Granny, been reading the satanic bible lately?

[edit on 5/10/05 by redmage]

I have been thinking along these lines recently, while slightly on topic and slightly off topic... there is one thing that i have found throughout my life that rings so true within my soul... DUALITY.

The more time that passes, the more books I read, the more posts I absorb, the more I come to terms with the notion of DUALITY.

In its simplest form, duality, a yin & yang, is the acknowledgementthat one can not exist without the other, one DEFINES the other.

In lame man terms, without EVIL/BAD.. there would be no understanding of GOOD. Duality is everywhere but often hard to see.

I ask you, regrading the topic of "free will"... what is the duality of free will? What defines free will?

The "god" concept, the oneness, the totality of sum. I ask you what is the duality in god? Perhaps NOT satan, but rather the opposite of ONE= MANY.

"God" defines us=we define God.... if you look inside yourself and into this notion as deep as your soul can... you might find something previously overlooked- as I have.

And it makes sense REGARDLESS of your "belief system"

Peace



[edit on 5-10-2005 by Serum39]

Things that have happened and are happening to me in my life and I guess i am searching for answers!

Search for answers inside that is where the Holy Spirit resides. Search for answers all around. The energy of the universe(GOD) gives you the answers if willing to open yourself up for such.

Originally posted by Serum39

I ask you, regrading the topic of "free will"... what is the duality of free will? What defines free will?

In this instance free will would better be defined as "human nature".

The duality lies in the fact that our human nature or "natural instincts" are in opposition with the teachings of christianity.

For instance, sex (the desire to reproduce) is a natural instinct to do as much of as possible, but sex/sexual thoughts are thought to be sinfull.

I ask you what is the duality in god? Perhaps NOT satan, but rather the opposite of ONE= MANY.

It could go a few ways for the duality of god but since the reference is to satan in peticular (for this thread) we are dealing with the christian philosophy.

In this ideology "many" could encompass the idea that God is in all things, or that, like god has his angels Satan has his demons.


Interesting ideas though, Serum39.

You strike me as a "spiritual" person, which I've always admired, as opposed to just being a "religious" person.

At my church, while growing up, I'd have to say the most "religeous" congregate was this little old lady that always sat in the front row.

Every sunday she'd hobble, with her cane and a bitter scowl on her face, up the aisle to her place and sit attentively.

After the sermon she'd hobble and scowl to the rec room for juice and cookies.

Once there, she'd let everyone know which verses they "needed" to hear to "get right" with god (I think she had the whole bible memorized ) but amidst the bitter scowl and treasuretrove of knowledge she never seemed to "enjoy" life. She took no pleasure in what "God" had "created" for her. Although she "knew" the book, she didn't seem to "feel" it or the greater message.

This is where the great chasm between religious and spiritual lies.


[edit on 5/10/05 by redmage]

After reading all the posts! I guess I need to learn alot more before I put my foot in my mouth! Sorry! I will be more carefull from now on!

Originally posted by Michigan_Granny
The Bible is mostly written in parables! So maybe there was never a Serpant or a Devil,

I agree with you on this.

maybe it is our own free will that was givin us when God created us. Could He have been explaining our human nature in a parable?

While I believe in a creator I differ from the one given in the bible, perhaps our free will is what the ancients could not explain and understand on their own that needed to have something to blame their short comings creating the devil as the fall guy.

Maybe the tree was a symbol. Eve heard her own mind speaking, not Satan. Just a thought that popped in my mind tonight!

I agree that the bible is also full of symbolism because that was the only way that people in ancient times was able to express themselves and make sense of their lives and nature.

Thank you Marg6043! At least now I can feel as if my thoughts, where or are a learning experience! Thank You!

Originally posted by Michigan_Granny
After reading all the posts! I guess I need to learn alot more before I put my foot in my mouth! Sorry! I will be more carefull from now on!

Fear not, I don't feel you've "put your foot in your mouth", but I couldn't resist a little ribbing.

It is an interesting discussion and i'm glad you brought it up.

I hope everyone can share and take away a better understanding of their's and others beliefs.

Just to clarify, I'm not "satanic" but I have read the LaVey satanic bible just for a better understanding of how "the other side" thinks.

I would recomend it to all people, including christians.

In all honesty if you believe in god, he/she will protect you, you have nothing to fear, and it will most likely strengthen your faith.

If not than the ideas shouldn't "scare" you anyways.

Personally I found to many contradictions in it to take it to seriously.

If I had to pigeonhole myself I'd have to say I'm a nondenominational christian.

The bible was written by man, not faxed from god, so I definately feel one shouldn't take the stories too literally since man is fallible and thus forth so is the bible.

Instead one should take with you the greater message of love, kindness, and forgiveness.

Seek truth, deny ignorance, and never stop asking questions.

redmage


[edit on 5/10/05 by redmage]

Thank you Redmage! But back to the books for now lol! Maybe my next post will be more worthy!