Why Is It So Important To Refute The Religious?

Hi Helen:

Why don't you read my last post again & then LOOK UP ALL THE REFERENCES FOR YOURSELF.

Then read my post again VERY carefully. Which means with an Open Mind. Unless your "church" won't let you dig too deeply into the texts I am quoting.

It's been done before, you know...for more than a thousand years in fact.

But then again, Ignorance is Bliss. And I would imagine you must therefore be very happy with the nice little world you live in all tied up in nice little pink ribbons.

Unfortunately, the harsher aspects of our Reality is, shall we say, slightly different from your prim biblical Fantasy.

Sorry to be the one to have to ask you, but what kind of a world do you think we're living in?

Just curious how you feel that performing [such unsavoury rituals as] [a ritual seen by many as] 'symbolic cannibalism' in public is something everyone should be partaking in on a fairly regular basis?

I'll just answer this question. I will also put into the quote bracketed ways in which you could probably be more successful at eliciting a response in the future. Generally, if you make someone angry entering into an argument, you're going to get a negative answer back. If that's what you're looking for, then keep on in the same manner. If you're actually looking to further a discussion, learn a thing or two and teach a thing or two, put a check on the inflammatory speech and ask your question the way you would like to be asked. Your words are in curly braces, mine in brackets.

Anyway. Ahh, communion. My stance on this differs from my Catholic brothers and sisters, in that I don't believe the wine/grape juice becomes the actual blood of Christ, and I don't believe that communion should only be taken if you are in communion with the church. I say this because my answer is possibly my own, but definitely not the same answer many of our educated friends of the Catholic denomination would give.

Communion is symbolic, to a degree. Essentially, it is you standing before the Throne of Grace, and telling God you are in communion with Him. The bread symbolized Christ's body, and biblically, Christ's body is the church. His church. He is the head, and we are the body. By taking that, we are saying we are in agreement with how Christ, as the head, wants to lead us because we are part of that body. The wine is representative of the blood covenant He made with us on the cross. We are reaffirming that covenant every time we drink that in communion with Him. If, however, we are not in communion with Him when offered Communion, you do not want to take it. After all, God knows if you're lying about being in agreement with Him.

That's why I believe Communion is a good thing. It focuses us on what's important. I don't believe everyone should take it, only those who are, in fact, in communion with Christ.

EDIT: The world baffles at times, but my second sentence made the world seem like an orderly, understandable place!

[edit on 10-4-2005 by junglejake]

Originally posted by NEOAMADEUS
Sorry to be the one to have to ask you, but what kind of a world do you think we're living in?

First, no you're not. Second, I know you fielded this one to Helen, but I had so much fun responding to your question to me, I wanted to answer another

I think we are living in a fallen world. I think that, were it not for the Grace of God, we would have destroyed ourselves long ago. I think we are living in a world that God gave humans dominion over, but we invited Satan in to take charge for us. I also believe a lot more is going on around us than we can even fathom. I believe an enemy is trying his hardest to prevent us from seeing and getting to know God, and for those of us who have gotten to know Him, the enemy is trying to make us stumble in our walk and to accuse and condemn us for our slips and falls. In so doing, we don't think we can be successful and just give up.

At the same time, there are forces that are trying to help us get through this. This is primarily the Holy Spirit, but is not limited to him. Just as we asked Satan to come into the world, God is respectful and just enough to follow the rule He established in giving us dominion over the earth, and He waits for us to invite him in, as well. We do this largely by prayer, but there are many other means by which we can do it, too.

My view of the world is one perpetually at war. Battle rages day and night. This war isn't for land or money, but our very souls. Unfortunately, one of the most devastating attacks by the enemy has been to make many of us believe there is no enemy. Then the enemy employs us to do his work without our knowing. Imagine how devastating an army can be if you not only don't know it's about to attack, but you don't realize it has attacked even after it left!

Originally posted by junglejake
Burden of proof, or at least evidence, is on you in this one. I explained where I'm coming from; how are you so sure I'm coming from a different direction?

I'm not sure. That's just my suspicion.

Originally posted by junglejake
My view of the world is one perpetually at war. Battle rages day and night. This war isn't for land or money, but our very souls. Unfortunately, one of the most devastating attacks by the enemy has been to make many of us believe there is no enemy. Then the enemy employs us to do his work without our knowing. Imagine how devastating an army can be if you not only don't know it's about to attack, but you don't realize it has attacked even after it left!

What is the motivation of this enemy? Fun? Revenge? Why are both god and this enemy obsessed with humans? We are lower than ants in comparison to these entities, yet the entire divine comedy centers around the allegience of humans.

It's hard to imagine beings with such absurdly shallow egos.

Originally posted by spamandham
What is the motivation of this enemy? Fun? Revenge? Why are both god and this enemy obsessed with humans? We are lower than ants in comparison to these entities, yet the entire divine comedy centers around the allegiance of humans.

It's hard to imagine beings with such absurdly shallow egos.

That's an interesting question. If you recall, Satan led a rebellion against God in heaven, and God laid the smack down on him. Obviously, if he rebelled against God, Satan was prideful and believed he could pull it off. When God cast him down like a streak of lightning, it would seem to me, and is supported by the Bible, that Satan was a little miffed and bitter, to put it very lightly. This being who thought he was greater than God was just cast from his extremely lofty position into Hell (some debate on that, but irrelevant to this).

Now, as we know, God, after creating His creation, was pleased with it. Satan saw an opportunity to try to get God back. Really, it was the only way he could. Kind of like Hitler going into extermination overdrive when it appeared he was going to lose the war or Clinton trashing the White House after finding out Gore wouldn't be moving in after him, Satan decided to make a spiteful attack against God. He decided to ruin God's creation; much like the kid that finds out they can't get the last piece of pie, so they lick it.

So here we are. God loves His creation, and because God loves it, Satan hates it because he's angry over his fall from a station that he "knows" he was overqualified for. To try to get God back, he is attacking the things that God loves, namely, us.

Why God lets Satan continue this, I do not know yet. As I'm sure you can tell, I'm going deeper and deeper in my knowledge of my faith, and the deeper I go, the more sense it's making to me. That is one question, though, that is currently unanswered. Of course, you could fill the Library of Congress with things I don't know yet, just as you could probably get a pretty large showing of information of things I have learned. Gaining knowledge isn't instant

Originally posted by junglejake
If you recall, Satan led a rebellion against God in heaven, and God laid the smack down on him.

Led? Or will lead? The only place in the Bible this concept is found is in Revelation (see Rev 12), and seems to be about the "end times".

Originally posted by junglejake
Obviously, if he rebelled against God, Satan was prideful and believed he could pull it off.

This argument is awefully shallow. Satan is supposedly super smart and powerful. How could he not figure out that regardless of how powerful he was, god was more? More importantly, what does it say about how wonderful heaven is if the created being who had the closest relationship with god decided to try to overthrow him? In addition, what did he have to gain from doing so even if he succeeded? Humans strive for power because resources are scarce. The ego aids in survival. Are we really to believe that eternal heavenly beings behave the way we do?

Originally posted by spamandham
Led? Or will lead? The only place in the Bible this concept is found is in Revelation (see Rev 12), and seems to be about the "end times".

Led. Luke 10:17-19 (emphesis added):

17The seventy-two returned with joy and said, "Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name."

18He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you.

This argument is awefully shallow.

Thank you Pride blinds people from the truth. It makes them think they're more capable of something more than they really are.

why because when I listen to a christian it tears my heart out, rips my soul in half. It is like listening to the devil himself and it makes me sick. So many christians and all with different opinions and beliefs. no one can agree which goes totally against what their preciuos bible teaches.

Why cant you all see what you make your religion look like. most christians are a disgrace to their god and make him look like a carnival freak. Why would one do this; I wouldnt and never will again. See this is why I am like this and i know their are others that feel this way too.




[edit on 6-10-2005 by ncbrian211]

Originally posted by Tinkleflower

Originally posted by mr conspiracy

It is a duty to try to correct what we may regards as incorrect.

Human conscience feels responsibility to correct an error.

The problem being, there's no one "truth" that is right for all beings (in this context, anyway).

So who's version of truth is more important?

Is it not more of a duty to encourage someone to find their own path to enlightenment?

No! There is one truth, true to all--what Tinkles said--we must all seek our own path--it is truly a means to an end. And the end is unity--we are all on this rock together--what is incorrect only is not loving one another.

Originally posted by ncbrian211
why because when I listen to a christian it tears my heart out, rips my soul in half. It is like listening to the devil himself and it makes me sick. So many christians and all with different opinions and beliefs. no one can agree which goes totally against what their preciuos bible teaches.

Why cant you all see what you make your religion look like. most christians are a disgrace to their god and make him look like a carnival freak. Why would one do this; I wouldnt and never will again. See this is why I am like this and i know their are others that feel this way too.

[edit on 6-10-2005 by ncbrian211]

*wow*

I feel that.

Originally posted by junglejake
Pride blinds people from the truth. It makes them think they're more capable of something more than they really are.

While I agree that pride can blind people into excessive self confidence, are we to believe that satan has the same animal instincts that we have?

Originally posted by spamandham
While I agree that pride can blind people into excessive self confidence, are we to believe that satan has the same animal instincts that we have?

What makes you so sure pride is an animal instinct alone? Whose to say angels don't have some things in common with man? After all, God created both.

How many angels do you know?

Perhaps 'beasts', 'angels', and 'men' are more the same than they are different?!?

I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
--Ecclesiastes 3:18 KJV

Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
--Revelation 13:18 KJV

And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
--Revelation 21:17 KJV

Originally posted by junglejake
What makes you so sure pride is an animal instinct alone? Whose to say angels don't have some things in common with man? After all, God created both.

How many angels do you know?

I don't know any angels. I suppose you're right though. Fictional characters don't have to make any sense.

Originally posted by spamandham
While I agree that pride can blind people into excessive self confidence, are we to believe that satan has the same animal instincts that we have?

When one dissolves the egos, things like pride, fear, superficial happiness, anything that gives you a false sense of identity, it can be thought of as reaching an angelic nature. Therefore it can be also thought that when one lets the ego grow, and doing so in a conscious manner, one is reaching a demonic nature.

It would seem quite plausible that, Satan, what can be considered the end of one side of the spectrum, will indeed have animalistic like qualities.

The spectrum:


flesh spirit
satan God

The spectrum: 7 colors of the rainbow.

The rainbow is the promise of conquering the delusion.


[edit on 10/7/2005 by queenannie38]

Originally posted by spamandham
I don't know any angels. I suppose you're right though. Fictional characters don't have to make any sense.

And we don't always understand everything there is to factual characters, too (as applies in this case )

Originally posted by AkashicWanderer
When one dissolves the egos, things like pride, fear, superficial happiness, anything that gives you a false sense of identity, it can be thought of as reaching an angelic nature.

I have no idea what you mean by dissolving an ego.

Originally posted by AkashicWanderer
It would seem quite plausible that, Satan, what can be considered the end of one side of the spectrum, will indeed have animalistic like qualities.

Love, hate, fear, lust, desire, pride, etc. are all instinctive traits that aid survival and reproduction. They are observed in other animals as well, and not just humans. It isn't even plausible that satan exists, let alone that an eternal sexless being without any need would be subject to human instincts designed/evolved to promote survival and reproduction. The same goes for god himself. It makes no sense that he would be loving, just, jealous, etc if he is completely self sufficient and eternal.

We have created these fictional characters as reflections of our own nature. We created god and satan in our own image.

The greatest hindrance to understanding, in all men, is the attachment to opinions (opinions=false comfort).