Abu Ghraib Videos Show Children Being Raped

Originally posted by WestPoint23
So, who are the ones that capture and behead civilians?

As far as I can see they have killed more Iraqi civilians and citizens then American soldiers. And don't tell me one group only attacks certain types of targets, they go after everything as long as it accomplishes their agenda.

Actually your wrong there mate...
Terrorists cells are not like normal criminals..
Read up on NI and you'll see the lessons we learned about terrorists..

Originally posted by JIMC5499
I'd like to see some proof on those numbers of Iraqi killed by the US. As far as I know the US didn't kill any civilians between the end of Desert Storm and 2003

"It’s a hard choice, but I think, we, think, it’s worth it."

Her response to a May 11, 1996 60 Minutes question about the over half a million children killed by the [Iraqi] sanctions
Death of 500,000 Children 'Worth It'

www.zpub.com...

And nowhere in that guilt equation is blame placed upon those other nations who also sanctioned and participated in the Iraqi sanctions?
Furthermore, nowhere in that guilt equation is blamed placed upon Saddam?
Simply just and only the US, eh, seattlelaw?






seekerof

[edit on 30-9-2005 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by Seekerof
And nowhere in that guilt equation is blame placed upon those other nations who also sanctioned and participated in the Iraqi sanctions?
Furthermore, nowhere in that guilt equation is blamed placed upon Saddam?
Simply just and only the US, eh, seattlelaw?






seekerof

[edit on 30-9-2005 by Seekerof]

Well remember that Britain is now american and now part of the US military...didnt you read about the great empire of the United states of America and Britain?

Yeah, ok, devilwasp, your sarcasm is noted.
Anyhow, there were more nations involved with the sanctions against Iraq than simply the US and UK.



seekerof

[edit on 30-9-2005 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by Seekerof
Anyhow, there were more nations involved with the sanctions against Iraq than simply the US and UK.

It was not a question of imposing the sanctions because they already were.

It was the American threat to Veto any attempt at lifting the sanctions.

Alone, America maintained the sanctions by doing nothing....

America, UK, Israel, and I believe Micronesia are the only ones that voiced opposition at the UN to ending the sanctions, and most opposed the illegal No-Fly-Zones.

Iraq, war, terrorism, abuse, rape???

Does it matter if truth ever catches up with our reality?

There is good and bad in everything and everyone.. it seems the bad always finds a way to exploit the evils of war.

I posted my thoughts well over a year ago.. take it for what it is worth..

Today America stands United in Shame

I see some who say we need to see the videos, let the truth out.. Have we not seen enough?

The shamful actions of a few cannot bring down our great nation .. can they?



UM_Gazz

And nowhere in that guilt equation is blame placed upon those other nations who also sanctioned and participated in the Iraqi sanctions?

Name the ones that supported the sanctions ten years after they were imposed...

Furthermore, nowhere in that guilt equation is blamed placed upon Saddam?

Saddam was not opposed to ending the sanctions.

Originally posted by Seekerof
And nowhere in that guilt equation is blame placed upon those other nations who also sanctioned and participated in the Iraqi sanctions?
Furthermore, nowhere in that guilt equation is blamed placed upon Saddam?
Simply just and only the US, eh, seattlelaw?

seekerof

[edit on 30-9-2005 by Seekerof]

Accountability needs to begin at home. Hmm, let's see ... We formed the coalition in 1990 for the war against Saddam after we encouraged our recent ally to go into Kuwait. US generals directed the war. After we killed those hapless rag-tag draftees and shot up their crappy tanks with tons of DU, we decided that the best way to get rid of Saddam would be to take away enough of the staples of life through sanctions that the Iraqi public would be brought to their knees. Our govt. logic was that the public would be in so much pain that they would unite and toss the bums out.

This, of course, backfired in many, many ways. For example, rather than Iraq supporting a lower or middle class which despised Saddam we destroyed those classes through sanctions so that now there was only an elite class of Saddam loyalists and the poor and destitute rest struggling to provide water to their children that would not kill them because the mothers could not produce milk because they were malnourished. As others have eloquently pointed out on this site, the best way to mollify the masses is to distract them by forcing them to spend all their time scrambling to find enough to eat to survive. With the middle and lower classes gone, Saddam was strengthened rather than weakened. His power and influence grew as he controlled the few resources still available. In the meantime, the oil for food program made a few middle men on this side of the world quite rich.

Well, since 500,000 Iraqi children died due to the US enforcement (remember the 'no fly zone'?) of the sanctions which WE demanded, the Iraq people were none too happy with us. Nonetheless, when Bush and his pals decided to blame Saddam for 911 and go in after him many Iraqis were hopeful. Saddam was a tyrant after all. Unfortunately our purpose in going in had nothing to do with the welfare of the Iraqi people. As a result, what could have actually worked out if our govt. had a plan for peace following military victory, the people of Iraq are now actually much worse off than they were under Saddam. 70% unemployment. Halliburton and Bechtel handing subcontracts out like candy while Iraqis are not hired to rebuild their own towns and cities. And in the meantime, our soldiers are given the impossible assignemnt of finding and killing the "insurgents" when every Iraqi man, woman and child possessed firearms before we got there.

You sound sort of like Tom Delay who, after being indicted by a grand jury in Texas, blamed the prosecutor for his troubles. I ask you, when will this country and this government ever take responsibility for its failures? It is so depressing when all we do is point the finger elsewhere along with the M-16s. The UN does precious little without the US giving the go ahead. I blame no one but my own government for the problems I see my own government creating. I find it terribly sad and tragic what's happened. But we must take responsibility for the failures of our own mistakes. Our foreign and domestic policies have sucked for a long, long time.

Does any know how many people are in Abu or Bucca? I have a good guess, right at 40 thousand. Could they all be car bombers, not likley, so what have they done to be there? Im sure the public only needs to know they all are a threat to the peace right? If you looked at a group of 40 thousand in jail in thhe US would you find the same things happening to them, I think so. Does that make it all ok, not at all but the real question is why we are running the camps in the first place and what system is in place to process these people. Why have we not setup the Iraqi's with the tools to hold their own or police their locals? Could it be that we(MNF) want to control Iraqi now and for a long time to come?

Excellent post.

14 enduring bases are being constructed in Iraq. They will not be gifts to the Iraqi people.

www.globalsecurity.org...

Our govt.s motivation is clear by its actions. Watch what they do not what they say.

*Mod hat off*

Quoting myself from the thread I linked to in my last post in this thread above... (posted in 2004)

Originally posted by UM_Gazz

Originally posted by Saphronia

Their only wish is to drag us down in the dirt.

Who's wish is it? Who makes this wish? We did not get dragged into the dirt here. we dove into it face first, eyes and mouth open.

The dirt you speak of did not come from the enemy in this war, it came from our own fellow americans, You should as an American feel shame for the actions or abuse.

There is more and more in this developing story, even our own leaders are confessing this, Donald Rumsfeld has even warned that we have not seen the worst yet.

Will video images of US soldiers raping Iraqi children open your eyes to the shame of this nation?

What will it take to cause you to feel shame at the actions of our own US soldiers?

We can all try to look away from this issue all we want, it is not going away.. and it is not over yet.

You can feel pride in your nation and shame for what happened at the same time. You are not forced to be on one side or the other.

But remember this, The shameful actions that has brought to this point, has been shown to go much higher up the chain of command than anyone wanted to believe.

Remember when these photos were turned in and an investigation began it was near a year ago.

Donald Rumsfeld admits that he should have brought it forward a lot sooner.. To me that is the same as saying "we were looking for a way to sweep this under the rug before the world and media got ahold of it"

There is real talk at high levels of removing Donald Rumsfeld from his position, and Rumsfeld did in his own world admit his guilt in this case. This should show you that at least one person in the White House is feeling the shame from all of this.

What is the real shame is that it takes something like this to wake up to the reality and evil of war on all sides and at every level.

Gazz



[Edited on 8-5-2004 by UM_Gazz]

Gazz

The following Senators were privy to the as yet unreleased pictures and videos:

Senator Lindsey Graham (Republican, South Carolina): "The American public needs to understand we're talking about rape and murder here."

"It was pretty disgusting, not what you'd expect from Americans," said Senator Norm Coleman.

"I don't know how the hell these people got into our army," said Colorado Senator Ben Nighthorse Campbell.

en.wikipedia.org...

-koji K.

[edit on 30-9-2005 by koji_K]

Originally posted by seattlelaw
Accountability needs to begin at home. Hmm, let's see ... We formed the coalition in 1990 for the war against Saddam after we encouraged our recent ally to go into Kuwait. US generals directed the war. After we killed those hapless rag-tag draftees and shot up their crappy tanks with tons of DU, we decided that the best way to get rid of Saddam would be to take away enough of the staples of life through sanctions that the Iraqi public would be brought to their knees. Our govt. logic was that the public would be in so much pain that they would unite and toss the bums out.

How wonderful logic is, eh?
Please notice what I have in bold within the above mention and quoted section.
Notice anything?
I have, but will not mention.
Why?
Because it is self-evident as to why. It goes back to my questions concerning the guilt equation, seattlelaw.

As such, according to your logic, if a group of men rape a woman, the only party that is guilty is the one who suggested, "Lets rape her" and then proceeded to rape her first, despite the fact that the woman was raped by each and every man in that group of men.
So let me see here.
Since we are using your logic, it would be safe to presume that in a court of law, the only one that would be convicted of rape would be the one who suggested it first and who was the first to rape the woman, correct?

Please, by all means, correct me if I am wrong here, but taking into account your logic of blaming simply and only the US, in the case of deaths attributed to the sanctions against Iraq, I think it is safe to presume that my example is correct/valid?





seekerof

[edit on 30-9-2005 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by ArchAngel

as posted by seekerof
Furthermore, nowhere in that guilt equation is blamed placed upon Saddam?

Saddam was not opposed to ending the sanctions.

Of course he was not opposed to ending the sanctions.
I wonder why?
Furthermore, it was his actions that brought the sanctions upon himself and his nation.
My question had nothing to do with ending the sanctions, it was dealing with his part in the guilt equation of why the sanctions were imposed in the first place.





seekerof

Please, by all means, correct me if I am wrong here, but taking into account your logic of blaming simply and only the US, in the case of deaths attributed to the sanctions against Iraq, I think it is safe to presume that my example is correct/valid?

Simply, and Only America used veto influence to keep the sanctions in place even when the vast majority of the world were against them.

No support, legal or moral, was required.

Only America can be blamed for many of the years of Sanctions, and those were the worst years for the Iraqis.

Originally posted by koji_K

"It was pretty disgusting, not what you'd expect from Americans," said Senator Norm Coleman.

"I don't know how the hell these people got into our army," said Colorado Senator Ben Nighthorse Campbell.

Those two quotes from Senators pretty well sums up my feelings on this whole disgusting mess. The only thing I would add is: Get people like that out of our Army--we neither need, nor want such people as they bring shame to our great country.

as posted by ArchAngel
Simply, and Only America used veto influence to keep the sanctions in place even when the vast majority of the world were against them.

No support, legal or moral, was required.

Only America can be blamed for many of the years of Sanctions, and those were the worst years for the Iraqis.

ArchAngel, again, is not the use of logic a wonderful thing?
So by the answer that you have given, my example of a group of men, a woman, the one who first suggested and then raped the woman first, then raped by all the men in that group of men, the one to only be found guilty would be the one who suggested doing the rape and then raped her first, correct?

Be careful how you answer, because if you answer the question truthfully, your argument(s) fall to the wayside as irrelevant?




seekerof

[edit on 30-9-2005 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by UM_Gazz
Quoting myself from the thread I linked to in my last post in this thread above... (posted in 2004)

Excellent post!

These pictures wouldn't need to be shown if people would think a little more rationally about it all. This isn't a football team whose quarterback has been accused of date rape. This is serious business!

And to this very day people are denying the atrocities that the viewers of the pictures say they saw!

The only reason these pictures should be released is so that those who continue to defend these actions and blame everyone else will see what's really happened in these prisons.

Originally posted by seekerof
Since we are using your logic, it would be safe to presume that in a court of law, the only one that would be convicted of rape would be the one who suggested it first and who was the first to rape the woman, correct?

No, but if you are that instigator, you should stand up like a man and take responsibility for your part in it (regardless of what anyone else did) and take your punishment instead of screaming, "They did it, too" or "He started it"!

Sharing the guilt with others doesn't make you any less guilty or absolve you of guilt in any way.

Have you heard from any of those that were involved with the sanctions, besides the US, stand up like men and own-up and take responsibility for/to those death count numbers cited by seattlelaw, Benevolent Heretic?





seekerof

[edit on 30-9-2005 by Seekerof]