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Originally posted by Shoktek
Porn is on the internet...as well as almost anything illegal that you could imagine, available to be shipped to your front door. Good luck trying to stop it, and also, who cares?
Originally posted by Shoktek
The only reason you would overdose from heroin is from buying it off the street, which is very unpredictable. This is due to prohibition. If drugs were legal, people would pay less money to buy them, society would pay no money to enforce their prohibition, people could actually go get their fix without worrying about getting a bad dose, or having an impure product.
Originally posted by Odium
You ever seen someone OD?
Ever seen how people act on drugs? Ever see someone on '___' have a bad-trip?
Drugs should not be legal, yes what you do to your body is all well and good but not when what you do to your body harms innocent people.
Although I am sure chasing the dragon, while a 3month year old baby is fine for its health? Yep let's all make drugs legal.
Originally posted by Odium
Try working at a club and coming back with the idea drugs [or even alcohol is good.]
You ever seen someone OD?
Ever seen how people act on drugs? Ever see someone on '___' have a bad-trip?
Drugs should not be legal,
Originally posted by spamandham
You're assuming that laws against drugs improve society. History demonstrates otherwise.
Originally posted by spamandham
You'll notcie that heroine and '___' are currently extremely illegal, and have been for quite some time. How is it then that you have observed people OD, or have bad trips, or acting up unde the influence in public? After all, these things don't happen if the activity in question is illegal, right?
Originally posted by spamandham
With drug prohibition, we not only have widespread drug usage, but we also have 50% of the prison population filled with people who's only crime was consumption or posession. We also have widespread criminal gang activity and public corruption fueled by high illicit drug profits. We have guerilla wars being fought as well. Actual people are dying and losing liberty in an attempt to enforce the police state necessary to criminalize what is fundamentally not harmful to the innocent.
Originally posted by spamandham
If you don't believe this, study the history of alcohol prohibition and the rise in violent crime that immediately followed, and the subsequent diminishing of it after prohibition was repealed. Then explain why other drugs are different.
Originally posted by spamandham
If there are drugs that turn you into a homicidal maniac, then sure, criminalize those, but why everything else?
Originally posted by spamandham
If the purpose of law is to increase safety, repealing drug laws is the clear course of action.
However, other laws such as child neglect/abuse, driving under the influence, etc., should of course continue to be enforced against drug users, just as they are in general.
Originally posted by Odium
You ever seen someone OD?
Originally posted by Shoktek
No, but it happens because they dose too much due to product strength variability on the street. If drugs were regulated and legal, they would be the same standard of quality as prescriptions, allowing exact dosages to be known, and clean products.
Originally posted by Odium
Ever seen how people act on drugs? Ever see someone on '___' have a bad-trip?
Originally posted by Shoktek
Yes, and it's no worse than someone who's had too much to drink at the bar...it's all about responsibility with anything you do
Originally posted by Odium
Drugs should not be legal, yes what you do to your body is all well and good but not when what you do to your body harms innocent people.
Originally posted by Shoktek
Drunk drivers kill way more people than any drug user...alcohol and tobacco kill more people each year than illegal drugs have killed ever since our recording.
Originally posted by Odium
Although I am sure chasing the dragon, while a 3month year old baby is fine for its health? Yep let's all make drugs legal.
Originally posted by Shoktek
Smoking and alcohol aren't any worse? Here's an interesting fact...mothers in the US and europe used to give their newborn babies morphine to calm them down and put them to sleep...it was quite common. Didn't do any harm, as long as correct dosages were used.
Originally posted by Shoktek
Almost any illegal/recreational drug is well documented and proven to be safer than alcohol and tobacco...alcohol is legal, and people drive drunk and kill others. Drug use is a social issue because we made it one. If alcohol and tobacco are perfectly fine to buy over the counter, the others should be as well...if someone can't use alcohol or any drug responsibly, they will pay the consequences in time..and it will be their own fault if they don't get help. But they shouldn't be thrown in jail for using them. It's also pretty pathetic that drug dealers are put in jail longer than most rapists and murderers in this country.
Originally posted by Shoktek
If drugs were legal, we wouldn't have any of the problems associated with them anymore. The problems are caused by the prohibition. Same thing happened with alcohol. Same thing will happen with anything else that the govt. will try to regulate and control.
Supreme Court says pornography is anything without artistic merit that causes sexual thoughts, that's their definition, essentially. No artistic merit, causes sexual thoughts. Hmm... Sounds like...every commercial on television, doesn't it?
Originally posted by Odium
You also get different strength heroin naturally by the opium production so it is very hard to regulate. In fact it is possible to OD on heroin and '___' the first time you try them, even if clean drugs just because your body has no ability to hold up to it.
Originally posted by Odium
There is a lot of difference between someone taking '___' and someone drinking alcohol.
I have yet to see [in the last 18months] someone drunk convinced that people were trying to kill them. Yet I have seen someone on '___' attempt to stab a bouncer because he believed such a thing...
Originally posted by Odium
That might just be because less people are taking those drugs?
Do you not see if you open it up for all to try more abuse will come into play? In fact making it legal will help the drug dealers who home-grow and home-make a lot of their drugs. "Honestly, we got it from a shop."
Originally posted by Odium
Oh wait during that period we won't have them to proove your point. However, I have seen cases of people on heroin injecting their children to relax them. Let us make it even more widespread.
Originally posted by Odium
Really? It's rare that a drug dealer is placed in prison in the U.K. now or even users. We tend to use Community service due to the 70% non-reoffender rate it has for drug users.
Originally posted by Shoktek
Over the counter sleeping tablets?
We never had problems with Flunitrazepam?
Or anti-depresents?
OR alcohol?
Or tobacco?
What world are you living in?
Originally posted by Odium
Originally posted by spamandham
You're assuming that laws against drugs improve society. History demonstrates otherwise.
Really?
Originally posted by Odium
I work part time as a Dj in one of the U.Ks largest clubs, I've seen people O.D. on almost every drug that is out there. It is fairly common place to find Es, speed, weed and '___' being taken in clubs.
Originally posted by Odium
And? If you make heroin, coc aine, etc, legal it'll still come from this places. These drug lords will be able to sell more drugs to a larger population and the internal conflict for territory will just contine to expand.
Originally posted by Odium
Well actually there is a lot of difference between heroin and crack, there is a lot of difference between weed and es and a lot of difference between all of them including alcohol.
Originally posted by Odium
But every study finds different evidence at the moment. Is it really worth the risk making something legal that in turn could do a lot more harm in the long run? Look at smoking tobacco...
Originally posted by Odium
But if smoking heroin, crack, etc, are legal you can't then also say 'It's illegal to do it in front of children' and also how would the police go about proving they did it?
Originally posted by Odium
Do you really wish to see more drugs on the streets?
Originally posted by Odium
Do you wish to run the risk of my children being hurt because their parents can legally and easily get access to drugs?
Originally posted by Odium
And do you want drugs which we fully do not understand yet on our streets?
Originally posted by Odium
Sorry but get a job at a large club, 1000+ people, come back and tell me groups of people on drugs [not alcohol since less than 60% of clubbers drink it] are good, nice people only out for a night of fun.
Originally posted by Odium
You also get different strength heroin naturally by the opium production so it is very hard to regulate. In fact it is possible to OD on heroin and '___' the first time you try them, even if clean drugs just because your body has no ability to hold up to it.
Originally posted by Shoktek
No...you don't. All the opiate drugs such as morphine, oxycodone, etc. are all synthesized from opium, and are all readily available at the pharmacy in exact strengths. If other drugs were legal it would be exactly the same.
It's impossible to OD on '___' too...maybe you mean somebody having a bad trip, but it's not the same as overdosing, which can't happen with acid.
Originally posted by Odium
There is a lot of difference between someone taking '___' and someone drinking alcohol.
I have yet to see [in the last 18months] someone drunk convinced that people were trying to kill them. Yet I have seen someone on '___' attempt to stab a bouncer because he believed such a thing...
Originally posted by Shoktek
That was most likely a mentally unstable person in the first place who shouldn't have taken it, or just a freak bad trip...and I have seen much worse things happen that were alcohol induced.
Originally posted by Odium
That might just be because less people are taking those drugs?
Do you not see if you open it up for all to try more abuse will come into play? In fact making it legal will help the drug dealers who home-grow and home-make a lot of their drugs. "Honestly, we got it from a shop."
Originally posted by Shoktek
Noo....if drugs were LEGAL, there would be NO MORE DEALERS. The drug control would be taken over by pharmaceutical companies, thus making them pure, reliable, less expensive, and would remove the drug black market from our country, which causes lots of problems...the problems are caused by the prohibition, not the drug. Once drugs are legalized, they are no longer in the control of criminals, and the market is gone.
Originally posted by Odium
Oh wait during that period we won't have them to proove your point. However, I have seen cases of people on heroin injecting their children to relax them. Let us make it even more widespread.
Originally posted by Shoktek
Oh wait, alcohol and tobacco have actually been documented to hurt fetuses, unlike heroin. I bet if a mother started sniffing gasoline it wouldn't be good either. Nor would sky diving. But then again, she's not being forced to do these things, and yet she's free to do them if she chose to. How is an illegal drug any different...no logic in this argument.
Originally posted by Odium
Really? It's rare that a drug dealer is placed in prison in the U.K. now or even users. We tend to use Community service due to the 70% non-reoffender rate it has for drug users.
Originally posted by Shoktek
Yea...I'm not talking about the UK because I know they have less strict laws than the US, and I'm not as educated on the situation over there. Here in the US we have a big problem with spending more and more money on a hopeless war.
Originally posted by Odium
Over the counter sleeping tablets?
We never had problems with Flunitrazepam?
Or anti-depresents?
OR alcohol?
Or tobacco?
What world are you living in?
Originally posted by Shoktek
Once again, these are PERSONAL problems. Geez, learn to recognize a difference between a problem on the level of individuals, and a problem in the society. All of the SOCIAL PROBLEMS associated with drug use are caused by the prohibition. If an individual has a problem with drugs, it's their own problem. And if they want those drugs, they are going to get them no matter what, if they are legal or illegal. But if they were legal, they wouldn't have to go through shady people to get drugs, they wouldn't risk getting unpure product, they wouldn't have to pay as much, and we the people wouldn't have to pay as much in tax to keep all the drug dealers in jail, and keep the narcotics teams on the streets. Everyone in this situation would have it better than we do now...and if an individual user or users develops bad habits, then that is their own problem. No one else's, not society's. Drug problems should just be treated like any medical issue, and not a crime. And once again, people are free to drink, and alcohol kills more people every year than illegal drugs ever have. You can't dispute simple facts.
Originally posted by Odium
Also 'Over Dose' in my part of the U.K. tends to mean you suffer from any of the ill effects of drugs. A lot of people even use it when talking about 'weed induced paranoia'.
Originally posted by Odium
Why should we run the risk of people who are mentally ill [and don't know it] being able to get a hold of drugs even easier and in turn hurt other people? This is the problem...drugs don't just 'hurt' yourself but other people.
See this the main problem with making drugs legal. I would have no problem if drugs only harmed the people who take them but they do not. They do harm pregnant mothers and young children as well as innocent people. Why should they be punished so someone else can smoke weed?
Originally posted by Odium
So there is no Black Market for prescription drugs?
I guess then Ritalin‚ Adderall and Dexedrine have not became drugs which are abused and openly available? Guess what...by criminals. They sell them on the streets, like they do illegal drugs now. So your idea that it would remove the illegal drug trade is well...a joke in my view.
Originally posted by Odium
Actually if you would take some time to check, almost every illegal drug has had studies done on them. In fact more studies done on them than legal drugs and none are overly positive with the findings.
Originally posted by Odium
You target the war by the problem.
Legalising anything doesn't remove the illegal market for it.
Does having legal firearms remove the black market? No.
Does it with prescription drugs? No.
Alcohol? No...
Originally posted by Odium
Flunitrazepam isn't a social problem? Here was me thinking date rape was a social problem, in fact a large enough social problem to have caused international outrage...
Also of course alcohol kills more people than heroin does because more people drink it.
It's like compairing these numbers; 1:100,000 people die from alcohol and the same number die from heroin abuse. 500,000 drink alcohol and only 200,000 take heroin. So 5 people die drinking alcohol and 2 die taking heroin. This is the problem, your statistics are bias because more people do one than the other and you can't compare them.
It's the old arguement of; 5.4 deaths per-100,000 from heroin and 611 per-100,000 from smoking. However more people smoke and thus more people will die from it. If the same percentage of people who took heroin smoked we would probably see a much smaller gap between the two. You also assume I am pro-smoking and fine with it being legal when I am not.
You also do not know the extent it would cost in the long run. You do not know the problems it could cause for wider society [people] and in turn harm them forcing them to spend more time off of work, increased medical bills and thus medical insurance as well as all the rest.
Also drug abuse is a problem for society. Drug addiction can resulted in things such as loss of employment, homes, etc, and in turn boost many things such as crime and poverty. It's a nasty cycle once you begin to get addicted especially to drugs like heroin which would still be expensive. After all, who will they buy the opium from? You can only farm so much and they already buy opium for drugs from 'Drug Lords' in Asia and South America.
Originally posted by Odium
See this the main problem with making drugs legal. I would have no problem if drugs only harmed the people who take them but they do not.
Originally posted by Odium
So there is no Black Market for prescription drugs?