NEWS: Homosexuals shouldn't be ordained as priests, Catholic Church says

Originally posted by dgtempe
There's nothing wrong with good priests, be they gay or straight.

What's wrong is they break the rules of the church. Just their being
there teaches that it's okay to break rules, to lie, and to disobey those
in authority.

It's also impossible for a gay person to be an effective Catholic priest.

Here's a scenerio for ya' -

They stand up on the pulpit, read the scripture readings about not
giving in to gay inclinations (see Romans) and then they will have
to stand there and say ... 'oh gee, God was just kidding when
he said that, you don't have to believe that. But he was serious
over here with the 10 commandments'. The bible and the church
rules become a cafeteria selection process for each person.

How on earth could a gay priest who is disobeying and lieing and
breaking rules ... how is he supposed to stand on the altar and
preach that others have to obey God's rules - the 10 commandments
for example. He would be a hypocrite at best.

'oh ... I know that I am disobeying and that I'm not following what
the bible says, but YOU have to follow these 10 commandments and
not murder anyone. YOU have to not commit adultry. It's okay for
me to pick and choose which rules of the church and scripture I want
to follow, but the rest of you have to do what I say, not as I do.'

It just doesn't work. They need to find a different church
that embraces the homosexual lifestyle.

The key word was "good priests", priests not known for ever having engaged in any child molestation, etc. Why cant a good person have a job they want, in this case, to serve God, if they are homosexuals?

Thats narrowminded and ridiculous.

In that case lets get all the homos out of other professions, since they are lesser humans.

Which church embraces the homosexual lifestyles? Our Man Of Perpetual Homosexuality?

To some archaeic thinkers gays are sinners. I say they are not.

I think what the church ought to do is allow priests to get married to their significant other (as some Catholic orders do now). They also should stop the homophobia.

[edit on 23-9-2005 by dgtempe]

I am Roman Catholic and sometimes I agree with the Church and sometimes I don't. This is a stupid issue because It should not matter being a priest if you are gay or straight. When you take the vow of celibacy you are neither. They better get the sexual thoughts out of their head at that point. So lets say if there is a gay priest. How is he going to practice being gay and being a priest? The same goes with straight priest. Do you see priest at the bar showing off what sexuality they are? Doubt it. These guys are married to God and the Church. I do not agree with the celibacy thing because we have seen what that got the Catholic Church. Child Molesters. I feel priests should be allowed to marry. that is a whole other issue. For the time being gay or straight it doesn't matter. Priest really aren't supposed to have those thoughts.

FlyersFan,
In the example that you gave, the gay priest would not have failed in his oath nor have broken church doctrine As long as he does not give in to the "tendencies" If the gay priest remains celebrate then he would be just as "good" a priest as the heterosexual priest.
Since the church doctrine demands that all priests remain celebrate, then it should not matter weather or not the priest is hetero or homo sexual.
By targeting the investigation into the seminaries and strengthening the "Instruction on the Careful Selection and Training of Candidates for the States of Perfection and Sacred Orders," that was released back in 1962, the church "seems" to be saying that the homosexual priest is more apt to break their vow of celebracy than would a heterosexual priest.

You so easily cast about your insulting comments, you should be banned...
your comments are not only insulting to others but insultingly ignorant to yourself... we dont take kindly to castigators in these here parts...

Quoting LEVITICUS are we?... shall we go down that street...?
the reason I ask, is that most knowledgable christians WONT go there... they know where it leads... to religious extremism that makes Wahhabism look normal. (even the very same catholics dont beleive some parts of it)

going by levitcal law, you, mrjones, shall surely be damned by your own actions here...

mrjones:
You say that christians can not pick and choose parts of the bible to beleive, but that is exactly what the various sects of christianity have done (that is why there are so many interpretations)... the catholics themselves are famous for using NON-biblical texts to support church doctrine.

So why should they interpret an obscure and controversial levitical law, that says that homosexuality is an abomination... when new studies show that 1/4 to 1/2 of the clergy is gay(*source NPR)? It seems to me, that it is very much a response to the pedophilia allegations, that have crippled the church.

Did you know that some sects practice Sabbath on a saturday (the true sabbath according to the bible) and that anyone who doesn't honor the sabbath on saturday is deserving of gods wrath, and perhaps death by stoning (according to biblical law)...

SO mr jones... what day do you practice the Sabbath?
If it isn't saturday, then you are also an abomination in gods eyes,
if you wear two different types of fabrics at the same time... you are deserving of gods wrath (also leviticus)
If you eat shellfish, then you are an abomination in gods eyes...
lets take a poll, shall we... How many of you heathens out there, eat Shrimp?

Is anyone seeing the contextual reasons (many of which, are no longer accurate) for these so called levitical laws yet?

they tie us directly to Judiasm for one... and these tenants were obeyed by jews, for mostly LOGICAL reasons AT THAT TIME.

they didn't eat shellfish, because it is dirty, and can kill you
you didn't sleep with same sex, because that wasn't fruitful... which is why masterbation is also an abomination (anyone see a need for more people on this earth?)
they didn't marry within the same family, because your kids could have two heads...

on and on... the jews were a pretty smart bunch... they knew that these religious laws, would keep many of them propagating and healthy for a long time...

I don't have a clue, why people could only wear one type of fabric, but if you have ideas, let me know...

BTW mrjones, how many slaves do you own? leviticus says it is legal to own them, so why not?
lets not forget that exodus gives instruction on how to sell your own daughter into slavery...
there is a very good reason the church still survives... because christianity DOES pick and choose...

thank you all for your patience thru reading this...

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by mrjones
The Roman Catholic Church has been around for only like
1000 years, ever since they broke from the Greek Orthodox
Church.

www.catholic.com...

No. The Catholic church has been around for 2,000 years.
An unbroken apostolic chain reaching all the way back to
St. Peter and Christ.

No, the ROMAN CATHOLIC church has only been around for around 1000 years.
They broke from the greek orthadox!

Originally posted by dgtempe
The key word was "good priests", priests not known for ever having engaged in any child molestation, etc. Why cant a good person have a job they want, in this case, to serve God, if they are homosexuals?

Thats narrowminded and ridiculous.

In that case lets get all the homos out of other professions, since they are lesser humans.

Which church embraces the homosexual lifestyles? Our Man Of Perpetual Homosexuality?

To some archaeic thinkers gays are sinners. I say they are not.

I think what the church ought to do is allow priests to get married to their significant other (as some Catholic orders do now). They also should stop the homophobia.

[edit on 23-9-2005 by dgtempe]

You really are ignorant aren't you?
You have my pitty for what that's worth.

1 - State and Federal law say gays can't be married.
2 - The bible says gays are sinners
3 - I believe the Luthrans accept gays, mighta been the mormans though, I forgot
4 - A person can not serve god if they are acting against him/her/whatever
Think about it, if you build stuff for a living, and you build it wrong, then your out of a job real quick.
If you want a job you have to follow the rules of the job.
The rules for priests are dont be gay and a #-ton of other stuff.

Think before you talk!

Originally posted by mrjones
You really are ignorant aren't you?
You have my pitty for what that's worth.

2 - The bible says gays are sinners
4 - A person can not serve god if they are acting against him/her/whatever
Think about it, if you build stuff for a living, and you build it wrong, then your out of a job real quick.

Think before you talk!

I am extremely glad that you are not a christian... you would make them all look bad...
I have pitty for your poor judgemental soul...
follow your own advice sometime... think before you speak on a topic that you are unfamilar with... and being that you can't possibly be a christian, maybe you are outside your area of expertise...
try some of the hate forums... you would like them...

Originally posted by mrjones

State and Federal law say gays can't be married

Think before you talk!

Um...because this issue covers the Catholic Church (based in Rome) and the fact that it is a widely spread religion (world wide), I think this doesn't really apply.
Canada, for instance, allows marriages between gay couples and it has a huge Catholic population.

On the 'think before you talk', may I suggest that you refrain from calling people names like 'idiot' as well as dredging up common vernacular to bring home your points? You really don't need to resort to it and it can be hazardous to your membership.

I say this because I'm interested in your POVs and getting banned will preclude your ability for further discourse.

Originally posted by LazarusTheLong
You so easily cast about your insulting comments, you should be banned...
your comments are not only insulting to others but insultingly ignorant to yourself... we dont take kindly to castigators in these here parts...

Quoting LEVITICUS are we?... shall we go down that street...?
the reason I ask, is that most knowledgable christians WONT go there... they know where it leads... to religious extremism that makes Wahhabism look normal. (even the very same catholics dont beleive some parts of it)

going by levitcal law, you, mrjones, shall surely be damned by your own actions here...

mrjones:
You say that christians can not pick and choose parts of the bible to beleive, but that is exactly what the various sects of christianity have done (that is why there are so many interpretations)... the catholics themselves are famous for using NON-biblical texts to support church doctrine.

So why should they interpret an obscure and controversial levitical law, that says that homosexuality is an abomination... when new studies show that 1/4 to 1/2 of the clergy is gay(*source NPR)? It seems to me, that it is very much a response to the pedophilia allegations, that have crippled the church.

Did you know that some sects practice Sabbath on a saturday (the true sabbath according to the bible) and that anyone who doesn't honor the sabbath on saturday is deserving of gods wrath, and perhaps death by stoning (according to biblical law)...

SO mr jones... what day do you practice the Sabbath?
If it isn't saturday, then you are also an abomination in gods eyes,
if you wear two different types of fabrics at the same time... you are deserving of gods wrath (also leviticus)
If you eat shellfish, then you are an abomination in gods eyes...
lets take a poll, shall we... How many of you heathens out there, eat Shrimp?

Is anyone seeing the contextual reasons (many of which, are no longer accurate) for these so called levitical laws yet?

they tie us directly to Judiasm for one... and these tenants were obeyed by jews, for mostly LOGICAL reasons AT THAT TIME.

they didn't eat shellfish, because it is dirty, and can kill you
you didn't sleep with same sex, because that wasn't fruitful... which is why masterbation is also an abomination (anyone see a need for more people on this earth?)
they didn't marry within the same family, because your kids could have two heads...

on and on... the jews were a pretty smart bunch... they knew that these religious laws, would keep many of them propagating and healthy for a long time...

I don't have a clue, why people could only wear one type of fabric, but if you have ideas, let me know...

BTW mrjones, how many slaves do you own? leviticus says it is legal to own them, so why not?
lets not forget that exodus gives instruction on how to sell your own daughter into slavery...
there is a very good reason the church still survives... because christianity DOES pick and choose...

thank you all for your patience thru reading this...

Looks like I got pwnd (power owned for the non-geek)

About damn time!
You guys argue over the sillyst stuff.
Seriously, a priest can be neither straight nor gay nor female.
I'm really surprised no one questions that,
Instead of "why can't a woman lead us" it's always "What!??! A gay in the clergy! oh my god!"

WTF?

This isnt about gays women straights or pigs.
This is about a private organization that can have whatever silly rules they want.

Remember being a kid and the other kids wouldnt let you in the club house so you told on them and you got in?
The real world don't work like that.
If you want in you gotta play by the rules and can be kicked out for whatever reason the guys running the club think up.

LazarusTheLong, your a rather intellegent individual, I appreciated your reply. You are the only one that actually did some research into the issue, and clearly know what your talking about.

Heres the problem with this thread,
Every one here is acting on emotion and their own personal beliefs.

It's as simple as this, if you don't like the rules of the church then leave.
Same as the rules of your job, school, or post office.
They say you gotta pay 39c to mail a letter, then you pay 39c to, mail a letter.
You can whine bitch and moan all you want, but you'll either pay 39c or not send the letter.

So, I'm wondering what are ATS rules is this particular venue masqua?

Being Catholic or what ever is there a non-right to post one's belief here according to ATS rules? As I really don't know..but your comments suggesting another banning is something I feel I need more detail on?

Canada or no, there is still some sort of free speech right -- yes?

I respect all views and speak with agrreement to some and question others as I have been questioned by our Members too -- but they are Members and should initially be treated with respect for their opinions unless there is an ATS law broken.. And if that is true here, Banning is the last word or inference to be used.

respectfully,
Dalllas

Yes it is a "private" organization that just "happens to have millions of members who follow it's edicts.
It is also the organization that has caused the deaths of thousands of people who did not believe as it says to. Please remember the Dark Ages, the Inquisition, The Crusades, the vilification of the Jewish people (a quick look at history will show that the first "christian" portraits of Satan were caracatures (spell?) of Jewish men.

So when the church starts to target a sector of society, even if it is internal to it's self, such moves can have a huge global impact.

Originally posted by mrjones

you sir, are an idiot and missed my point entirely

This is what I have trouble with. ^

The vernacular I alluded to was quickly edited and thats a good thing.

I'm not hitting the gripe button, Dallas...I thought I'd try this way first, ok?

I don't know why you guys are getting worked up about religion. It is a stupid argument. I am Roman Catholic and I talk to God when and where I want. I am not told where and when I have to go to pray. I highly doubt God is pissed at me as long as I continue to talk.

Back to topic...Once a priest takes the vow of celibacy it doesn't matter if they are gay or straight they can not practice their sexuality.

Hi there -- understood. A little surprised to read things I felt were a bit aggressive towards people from U. Then again. I'm not innocent of yealping and sending a negative tune either.
Rspectfully,

Dallas

Originally posted by mrjones
[Gay people can turn straight and vice verse
There is no "hard coding" into your genetics that makes you gay
Genetics can make you more masculine or feminine, but just as vegetarians have canine teeth, feminine men can be straightedited for spelling only

Don't have many gay friends, huh?

Its clear you didn't read the motto at the door. Maybe you should step out and come back in.

Vegetarians are Vegetarians for MANY reasons and its their choice gays do not have a choice. Yes there are people that will sleep with whom ever, but a gay person is gay period.

Originally posted by mrjones
No, the ROMAN CATHOLIC church has only been around
for around 1000 years. They broke from the greek orthadox!

You already said that. I already provided info to show it
is not just 1,000 years old. Take a look at the list of popes.
It's an unbroken apostolic chain. Read the link provided too.
www.catholic.com...

Originally posted by dgtempe
Why cant a good person have a job they want, in this case,
to serve God, if they are homosexuals?

Because those are the rules of the church, which are based on
scripture - Romans to be exact. It doesn't matter how 'good'
you and I think homosexual people are. It doesn't matter how
'good' we think their hearts are. The Church has decided that
God made the rules that people are not to engage in unrepentant
homosexual acts. ROMANS in the bible. And as I said, a active
homosexual can't get up on the pulpit and say to people that they
have to follow God's word and that they have to obey the 10
Commandments, etc. etc. Because HE isn't obeying them.

He'd be a completely ineffective priest. He'd be unbelieveable.

Thats narrowminded and ridiculous.

No, it's actually hypocritical for a homosexual person to want to
be a Catholic priest. If God really is calling that person to serve
Him, then that person has to start by trying to follow God's laws.
If that gay person doesn't think that God's laws include stopping
all homosexual activities, then they need to find another non-bible
based church to serve God in.

Originally posted by kenshiro2012
If the gay priest remains celebrate then he would be just as "good" a priest as the heterosexual priest.

Yep. That's true. Absolutely.

the church "seems" to be saying that the homosexual priest is more apt to break their vow of celebracy than would a heterosexual priest.

True again. The fact of the matter is that while most gay people are not
pedophiles ... most pedophiles are gay. And considering the scope of the
sex scandal ... the church is reacting to protect itself.

I stand by what I said .. anyone who is an ACTIVE homosexual has
no business being a priest. It's against the rules and hypocritical
of them to be one. They'd be completely ineffective. They would
be better off, and do a better job of serving God, if they would move
on and find another church to serve Him in.

IMO, hetero or homo sexual is irrelevant.

Having grown up, and having been raised, within the Catholic faith it seems more like closing the gate after the cows have gained their freedom.

Throughout my childhood, throughout Catechism, throughout studying the beliefs of the Catholic faith I often felt dismayed, thus resulting in my renouncing of the Catholic faith.

After going to church every Sunday, after going to Catechism every week, after spending countless hours studying the Catholic faith from a biblical aspect, I found myself feeling that no matter how hard I tried, no matter how much I studied the testaments, no matter how much I "practiced the faith" . . . there was always this nagging feeling that I could never achieve the sanctity that was preached during the Gospel every Sunday [Saturday mass, if you will].

For the most part . . . you can do this, and you can do that, but you will never attain our stature, our closeness to God.

It all seemed to be a rather archaic approach to ascension. A primordial sequence to becoming one with the Lord.

My personal interpretations when reading the Bible seemed, in many ways, to contradict what was being taught within the Church. Seek Me, believe in Me, profess Me and you will be my child.

Yet, going to "church" became more of a chore than a pleasure. There just wasn't the continuity from the Bible to what was experienced at Mass.

I, too often, felt spoken down to (i.e you can do this, and you can do that, but you'll never achieve our level of oneness with the Lord). Maybe this was a result of the pastorical leadership within our congregation, though I doubt that was the case.

Throughout several congregational assemblies and Priests, I still felt the same nagging feeling, "You can pursue the attenuation of a higher proximity/closeness to God, but you will never attain the level of closeness we have with God".

As if a Priest, within the Catholic religion, autonomously holds a greater closeness to the Lord God himself than I?!

I apologize for getting so far off topic with this post . . . it's a sore subject with me.

As for allowing Gay Priests . . . they've been doing so for years.

To make a stand now, with all of the history within the confines of "the faith", it seems rather hypocritical at this point.

IMO this is only important to the credible continuation of the Catholic religion as a whole. A religion that, again IMO, is outdated and archaic seeking to extend it's proliferation.

The allowance of homosexual Priests, acknowledging the aforementioned, is simply a publicity matter. The fact that the Catholic religion runs rampant with pedophiles and assorted miscreants is, for the most part, common knowledge. How many implications, legally in a court of law or settled outside of a court of law, are needed to demonstrate this?

Just because they are, only recently[2-3 years], acknowledging the extent of the situation does it become a matter of concern to the greater populace.

Would you risk, even the slightest possible chance, that your son/daughter becomes a target?

Not me!

p.s. I have nothing against gays (albeit homosexual or lesbian) . . . whether it's genealogical or by choice is of no consequence. Though, when it comes to having a profound impact, compounded by religious implications, my personal thoughts tend to lean towards what is stated within the Bible*.

*Flame me if you will but I stand by my personal experiences!

[edit on 9/23/2005 by 12m8keall2c]