Atlantis: Reviewing Plato's Descriptions

Interesting theory on the dating Gazrok what do people think Solon's Egyptian wasnt that good and he could have got a part of the translation wrong?

I'm suspecting that maybe Japan's Islands near Taiwan might have been atlantis. I read just finished reading Graham Hancock's Underworld (yeah, yeah, I know, I know. Most of you don't even like to hear his name). But there Japanese Scientists have found cities from 7000 BC and older. Which predates Mesopotamia and India. And Pottery as old as 16,000 years. If it wasn't Atlantis, then perhaps Japan was their first stop before spreading knowledge.

This is just speculation. Don't worry abut me falling head over heels for this. But, it does seem as though the Jomon (first advanced Japanese culture) were ahead of everyone by millenia, and even have records of sailing back then.

So, for what ever it's worth...

Edit: I just read one of the Postcripts, and the NIOT has found another sunken city in India, over 9 kilometers long. And they were able to bring up teeth and jewelry which dated to before 7000 BCE.

If it's true, then I have no doubt that a higher civilisation could have existed somewhere in the world at the time frame Plato put it.


Here's some: timesofindia.indiatimes.com...

www.hinduonnet.com...



[edit on 13/10/2005 by FallenOne]

Interesting theory on the dating Gazrok what do people think Solon's Egyptian wasnt that good and he could have got a part of the translation wrong?

More likely lost in the grapevine (Priest to Solon, Solon to Plato, etc.) As I understand it, the Egyptians dated events mostly by which pharoah was in reign at the time. Solon would have then translated this to something more recognizable to the Greeks, and then his idea of the date could have misconstrued... That's IFs though. I actually plan to look more into the whole date angle, but lately had other fish to fry....

The likelihood that Plato embellished the power of Atlantis doesn't help matters, just as Homer's embellishments of Troy didn't help either... But, in order to be passed on, history had to be entertaining. Even today this is the case...just look at the glitz associated with your average newscast....

it sounds like atlantis was far off the equator

1.warm dry summers

2.wet cold winters

the equator when ever it crosses land most of the areas are coverd by rain forest and all year around there is no summer or winter it stays the same temperate.

so it is possible for it not to be near the equater if you want to cut that out

[edit on 29-10-2005 by lepracornman]

Originally posted by Gazrok
More likely lost in the grapevine (Priest to Solon, Solon to Plato, etc.) As I understand it, the Egyptians dated events mostly by which pharoah was in reign at the time.

They did. And the time that you're mentioning was one of great stability in the Egyptian empire. Things fall apart during the Third Intermediate period (about 1070BC), but before then they are stable for a long time.

There's letters in the royal archives and treaties made by the Pharoahs and received by the Pharoahs. There's lists of tribute and trade. And no mention of Atlantis or a mysterious country that was destroyed or suddenly cut off from contact.

Maybe Atlantis wasn't real. What? Someone need to say it. There are many islands in Mediterranean that flood and some the have been covered in water. The story was fiction, so why not try and find that all elusive Jurassic Park while you are at it?

When did Plato ever suggest that his story was anything other than fiction?

Originally posted by Frosty
Maybe Atlantis wasn't real. What? Someone need to say it. There are many islands in Mediterranean that flood and some the have been covered in water. The story was fiction, so why not try and find that all elusive Jurassic Park while you are at it?

When did Plato ever suggest that his story was anything other than fiction?

Honeslty is that even worthy of posting. I don't mean to demean your statement but If your gonna skepticize at least do it with a valid argument that is interesting and contains facts as to why it is not a plausible theory.
Besides the title of the thread is reviewing Platos descriptions, not let's believe in atlantis.

Sorry if this seems trollish but I Have been sayin nothing on this thread because i have not read platos descriptions yet. It just anoyed me that i checked my subscribed threads list and came to the thread for this. I thought there might have been something significant!!!!!!

Originally posted by Frosty
Maybe Atlantis wasn't real.

That's my take on it after many years of looking into the subject. I'll admit I was orignally enchanted by Edgar Cayce's stories, but when I started looking at Plato and looking into the evidence, I came to the conclusion that everyone's trying to hammer any possible data into being Lost Atlantis and they're really mangling truth and evidence and history to do so.

When did Plato ever suggest that his story was anything other than fiction?

And, in fact, the other stories he gives are teaching stories and not meant as fact. I don't see that this would be any different.

Originally posted by Morzikaga
Right you are. (above) Only in the Andes do we find it naturally occuring.

like the whole of south america for instance ?

Now you're talking. In Bolivia, we have a rectangular plain of the size mentioned by Plato, which is midway along the continent's longest side, a canal leading to the sea, red/white/black stone ruins and a ruined wall, local legends of a sinking city, etc.

And, the continent of South America is larger than (known at the time) Asia and Libya (as they didn't know the full extent of Asia).

The biggest stickler for many on SA is the elephants. Then again, there are pre-Columbian SA sculptures of elephants, African peoples, African animals, etc. which suggest some exposure or trade between the two continents some time ago. Another indicator is the Egyptian mummies found stuffed with tobacco, cocoa, and other crops found only in SA.

Originally posted by FallenOne
I'm suspecting that maybe Japan's Islands near Taiwan might have been atlantis. I read just finished reading Graham Hancock's Underworld (yeah, yeah, I know, I know. Most of you don't even like to hear his name). But there Japanese Scientists have found cities from 7000 BC and older. Which predates Mesopotamia and India. And Pottery as old as 16,000 years. If it wasn't Atlantis, then perhaps Japan was their first stop before spreading knowledge.

This is just speculation. Don't worry abut me falling head over heels for this. But, it does seem as though the Jomon (first advanced Japanese culture) were ahead of everyone by millenia, and even have records of sailing back then.

So, for what ever it's worth...

Edit: I just read one of the Postcripts, and the NIOT has found another sunken city in India, over 9 kilometers long. And they were able to bring up teeth and jewelry which dated to before 7000 BCE.

If it's true, then I have no doubt that a higher civilisation could have existed somewhere in the world at the time frame Plato put it.


Here's some: timesofindia.indiatimes.com...

www.hinduonnet.com...

[edit on 13/10/2005 by FallenOne]

Originally posted by Gazrok
Oddly enough, the same thing was said about Troy...

Until they found it of course.

My point exactly. So many so called myths have been proven fact.

I believe Atlantis exists somewhere. If its on the bottom of the sea, no wonder its a bitch to find. We know more about the moon than we do the depths of the Ocean.

using Plato's time table of 10,000 years ago (~10,600)

and gleaning factoids from viarious sources....

It seem the mythic Atlantis disappeared around the time of the last
180-degree reversal of the earth's magnetic poles ~12,400 years ago
according to paleomagnetic studies.

Atlantis disappeared during the violent weather happening globally during the transition to this warm Holocene era ~10,500 to 9,400 BCE

Atlantis disappeared after the 1st of 2 mini-ice ages
Worldwide floods, released liquid water, moistened Sahara~8,000 BCE
Black Sea flooded after the 2nd mini-ice age ~5,600 BCE (or earlier)
Jericho, was already inhabited earlier than ~7,500 BCE
- other reference points shelved-

~~~~~
'the Pillars of Hercules'=>should not mean Gibralter, as the flooding
of the Mediterranian occurred ~5,000,000 Years Ago

'the Pillars of Hercules'=>should not refer to the Bosphorous Strait,
as that flooding of the BlackSea occurred ~5,600 BCE

Atlantis' 'Mountain Lakes'=>these could mean the mountain lakes which became unfrozen during the interglacial...which began the 1st known true agriculture (as opposed to horticulture & gathering) in the Anatolian highlands ~10,500 BCE & again ~6,200 BCE...
(eventually spreading to Mesopotamia-Iran-Iraq, or current 'cradle-of-civilization' candidate
~~~~~~




sidebar:
imho, the great valley & plain which once was criss-crossed with rivers & freashwater lakes..
.perhaps even a fortress-city made of adobe & wooden technologies was laid-out & patterned like the fabled Atlantis...
until that early-gathering of humanity & Tribes, Clans was scattered out by the flood which created todays Black Sea
(& was also the generator for stories about Babel & Gilgamesh & Noah)

Consider also, this social experiment, Atlantis, was formed by the common need & attraction of the water & freshwater lake which was the focal point in the great valley...hence the name Atlantis which related to water
The social order was pre-Patriachial pre-Warrior pre-Monotheistic and held the Sun-Moon-Earth as the original 'Trinity'...the egalitarian mind was dominant, as a varity of cultures & tribes & clans intermingled and shared their insights+observations+technologies+crafts...a real, idyllic place where the only adversery was nature.

I don't want to be sceptic but what about the dates. Plato lived between 428 BC and 347 BC (he wrote Timeas in ~. The last ice aged ended apparently around 10963 BC. I believe (if Atlantis existed) it then disappeared under the waves. Was the story of Atlantis told from generation to generation for 10 500 years then ?

Originally posted by Magickesists
Honeslty is that even worthy of posting. I don't mean to demean your statement but If your gonna skepticize at least do it with a valid argument that is interesting and contains facts as to why it is not a plausible theory.
Besides the title of the thread is reviewing Platos descriptions, not let's believe in atlantis.

Sorry if this seems trollish but I Have been sayin nothing on this thread because i have not read platos descriptions yet. It just anoyed me that i checked my subscribed threads list and came to the thread for this. I thought there might have been something significant!!!!!!

Why do you think this section of the forum exist? To discuss fiction? Well, if that were true it would belong in BTS. Yes, this section is meant to ascertain the level of factfulness to the claims that the Atlantis Plato described in a fictitous story was once/is real or not.

My arguement is meant for those who believe Atlantis to be real to bring forth some evidence such as: a location, whether Plato ever suggested it was real (no such evidence has ever revealed he did), what did Plato base his description of Atlantis on (was it a real island or generalization of other islands which had flooded were flooded met with further creative detail to intice listeners)?

Some of the theories I have read, have added the impact of a comet or comets to the Ice Age melt, causing larger tidal waves from their impacts in the ocean. I have no proof that these comets existed, but I was wondering if they also added a lot of frozen water to an already unstable situation at the end of the ice age it could have caused a sudden rise in ocean levels enough to inundate some coastal settlements along the ocean they impacted--the Atlantic where Atlantis was supposed to be.

Now I do not believe in a global flood, let me put that out of the way right now. But almost all cultures have a flood legend, so there must have been a series of serious local floods, to have impacted the myths of a lot of cultures. The book Atlantis in America does try to link these flood myths together to an event at the end of the most recent ice age. Which could be reasonable, for an area where a comet impacted, meteor impacted or a large chunk of antarctic or arctic ice shelf suddenly hit the ocean and caused waves and an abrupt rise in the Atlantic coastal region with tidal waves cresting over a lot of land and then receding leaving only the coastal areas flooded. This could put "Atlantis" almost anywhere in the Atlantic that was warm enough to support Plato's climate.

Just trying to get my thoughts straight -- don't think it worked.

I've seen enough about how the melting at the end of the last ice age could have inundated the continent (or island - whatever the latest pseudohistorian is saying) of Atlantis.
When an ice age "ends," it's not like someone turned on the heat. It would take hundreds, maybe thousands of years for icemelt to cover a continent with water. Unless the Atlanteans were stupid or legless, they certainly would have escaped that fate.

Maybe Atlantis wasn't real. What? Someone need to say it. There are many islands in Mediterranean that flood and some the have been covered in water. The story was fiction, so why not try and find that all elusive Jurassic Park while you are at it?
When did Plato ever suggest that his story was anything other than fiction?

I'm with you, Frosty. I don't believe Atlantis ever existed. There is just no reason at all to believe it. None.
But, in fact, Plato did assert all through the Critias that the story was true. As Byrd said, Plato often asserted the truth of stories he told. Stories we know to be fiction. So Plato's assertions are not a reason to believe in Atlantis.

The following is quoted from the first post in this thread:

Around 600 B.C., a famous Greek political leader by the name Solon traveled to Egypt and met with high priests of Isis and Osiris. Solon was one of the “seven wise men” of ancient Greece and is still remembered as one of the founding fathers of democracy; his statue is displayed in the Capitol Hill building in Washington D.C. The Egyptian priests told Solon that there was once an advanced civilization peopled by a superior race that lived on an island named Atlantis about 12,000 years ago. He was shown the ancient records of the Egyptians and was told that the story is based on fact, faithfully passed on for thousands of years. Solon was so fascinated by the tale that he translated it to his native tongue and brought it back to Greece. This precious document was kept by his illustrious family for over two hundred years and was later presented to Plato, who wrote about it around 400 B.C.

These statements could be left out of the first post and nothing would be lost. There was no "precious document" that was brought home by Solon. The Egyptians never asserted that the Atlanteans were "superior," unless you consider that the Egyptians also thought of the Athenians as "superior" as well. The entire point of what the Egyptians were saying to Solon, as told in the Critias, is that Solon was unaware of the vaunted history of his own city-state (Athens.)
Also, if "Solon was so fascinated by the tale that he translated it to his native tongue and brought it back to Greece," then why didn't he write about it? Why didn't anyone else write about it? Why didn't any Greek ever know of the tale in the times between Solon and Plato? Why didn't Plato talk about this "precious document" from Solon?

While I understand that the original post here was meant to generate discussion, the content in that post is mainly just embarassing fluff. So to the poster that wants to criticize Frosty (and me too, I guess) because the title of this thread is "Reviewing Plato's Descriptions," not "Let's All Believe in Atlantis," perhaps you should read Plato's Dialogues. If you did, you would see that, despite the title of this thread, the opening post rewrites Plato's descriptions, it does not "review" them.

Harte
edit - typos

[edit on 12/16/2005 by Harte]

Reviewing Plato's tale of Atlantis:

"All these (Poseidon's ten sons) and their descendants for many generations were the inhabitants and rulers of divers islands (diverse in that the islands were different shapes and sizes) in the open sea: and also, as has been already said, they held sway in our direction over the country within the Pillars as far as Egypt and Tyrrhenia."

sacred-texts.com...


Who could have reached all the islands in the Mediterranean, all the islands in the Atlantic and be united under one banner?

There are actually Mastadon skeletons in museums near the Bolivian site, so possible. I'm personally of the thinking that the dating method is in error, and the text meant 900, not 9000....

I cannot see an intelligent man as Plato writing 9000 yrs when he meant 900 yrs. Also, Plato states through out his dialogs that he was serious it was not fiction.

I'm suspecting that maybe Japan's Islands near Taiwan might have been atlantis. I read just finished reading Graham Hancock's Underworld

I just read Graham Hancock Finger Prints of the Gods. I really liked it. I have 2 more of his books that I plan on reading as soon as I get a chance. Those ruins off from the coast of Japan our very old. And could possible be part of a civilization that traded with the Atlantean's.

Was the story of Atlantis told from generation to generation for 10 500 years then ?

I believe the Egyptian Priests had it written down and stored in the Library of Alexandria, which was located in Egypt and believed to hold nearly 700,000 books.

Originally posted by Stari

There are actually Mastadon skeletons in museums near the Bolivian site, so possible. I'm personally of the thinking that the dating method is in error, and the text meant 900, not 9000....

I cannot see an intelligent man as Plato writing 9000 yrs when he meant 900 yrs. Also, Plato states through out his dialogs that he was serious it was not fiction.

I'm suspecting that maybe Japan's Islands near Taiwan might have been atlantis. I read just finished reading Graham Hancock's Underworld

I just read Graham Hancock Finger Prints of the Gods. I really liked it. I have 2 more of his books that I plan on reading as soon as I get a chance. Those ruins off from the coast of Japan our very old. And could possible be part of a civilization that traded with the Atlantean's.

Was the story of Atlantis told from generation to generation for 10 500 years then ?

I believe the Egyptian Priests had it written down and stored in the Library of Alexandria, which was located in Egypt and believed to hold nearly 700,000 books.

You are right that the 900 year date couldn't be right, since there were several civilizations in the area that had already developed writing at that time, none of which ever mentioned Atlantis. But you are wrong to think that all Atlantean history could have been destroyed in the burning of a library that wasn't even concieved of until hundreds of years after Plato wrote his Dialogues.

Actually Haste, I didn't say that the Library of Alexandria was the only place that Atlantis was written down. I merely said it is possible that at one time it could have been written in one of the 700,000 books in the library. It took many years perhaps hundreds of years to compile all of those books for the library. It did not happen overnight. There is also a helmet found in south America with writing on it, and no one knows how to read it. So my point is what if it tells the story of Atlantis? No one would even know it.