Is stealth all that good?

F-117 was the first try ,and shure it's stealth,always no that whatever ,
you have in your hand is 10 to 15 years away from what may be handed
down in the real world.Carbon Graphite Composites is still the stuff that
all of (any military aircraft being built now till 2010) Is made of ,this product
Is very expensive. Requires plys after plys to be laid up in nickle tools ,then
Cooked in large AutoClaves under extreme Pressure.And this tec is almost
30 years old .

[edit on 21-9-2005 by vertol]

here is a link more...was it serbian radar that finally shot it down? Was there any SAM involved in the shooting down? It just looks like bullet holes (50 cal?)...they musta had to shoot a lot of bullets to finally bring it down!

BlueAngel

From what I heard initially there was an engine fire at some point, and once the RAM catches it doesn't go out. This allowed a SAM to strike the aircraft, which is what eventually brought it down. I don't know if the fire was before it was hit, or a result of being hit.

Is stealth good? Is the ability to penetrate radar networks with no chance of detection and take out SAM sites before they even know you're there worth it? You bet your ass it's worth every penny.

lol ,BlueAngel yea thats a very old picture during that ,not saying .it's the same old thing ,that aircraft (F-117) was conceived out of a
Cold War Ideology that we could build a Aircraft that could Sneak Around.
We already did that for years with the U-2,and the SR-71..But what was new with this aircraft was Carbon Graphite Composite( but what they did was when they laid the plys up ) Sometimes 6 to 8 plys , they put copper wiremesh that was slightly radioactive in between the plys ,and that is the secret to stealth as far as what radar we have at this time .lol

American Mad Man, do you have military training and experience? I would have to say that you do. Either that or you are well studied. You always bring up valid points as to why something is tactically and/or strategically sound. Once again, great post about why stealth tech. is a great benefit to who ever owns it.

Originally posted by vertol
lol ,BlueAngel yea thats a very old picture during that ,not saying .it's the same old thing ,that aircraft (F-117) was conceived out of a
Cold War Ideology that we could build a Aircraft that could Sneak Around.
We already did that for years with the U-2,and the SR-71..But what was new with this aircraft was Carbon Graphite Composite( but what they did was when they laid the plys up ) Sometimes 6 to 8 plys , they put copper wiremesh that was slightly radioactive in between the plys ,and that is the secret to stealth as far as what radar we have at this time .lol

check the link...it has more pictures than just that one...were not the U-2 and SR-71 built rather for spying than to be a bomber...the U2 and F-117 were built to fly different missions...or am i misinterperting what you are saying?

BlueAngel

I no about those pictures (lucky shot ,O well ) OLD .
I was trying to tell you a story on how stealth evolved ?
guess you don't get it . ( always no F-117 was built 1978 to 1882.
And will be retired soon.

Originally posted by ShatteredSkies
One scratch on the RAM, and the smallest of Radio waves can be returned, and BAM you're on RADAR.

The B-2; if the coating on it is ever damaged, the ENTIRE aircraft has to be repainted.

Shattered OUT...

You must be joking...right?

A scratch would do verry little to its RCS, of course depending on where it is and how long/wide/& deep it is.

I will need to see a legit link about repainting the whole aircraft...I call BS, theres so many RAM rumors out there...it doesn't mean you have to believe them all.

Zaphod58
The mere act of touching the RAM coating would cause a massive RCS bloom just from the OIL in your skin.

Again...I call BS, thats just plain rediculous, what about rain or bird #??? Rain would do nothing, bird# would do nothing, and the VERY minut amount of oil on your hand will do nothing.


BlueAngel...Of course theres going to be a bunch of holes in it...It was brought down by AAA. They didn't take there pistols and all start firing aimlessly in to the sky.
The shells explode at a pre-determind altitude, think of a grenade being fired at the plane, and then explode right next to it, all the shrapnel would rip through the aircraft.

Hey, I'm just telling you what the guys that work on the plane told us when we got to go near it. If it's BS it came from the crew chiefs of the plane that we were near.

Murcielago, I can understand why you call BS, and I would too, but I have seen this multiple times on different educational shows, such as on the Discovery Channel, History channel, and I have read it over and over again.

What you seem to misunderstand, is that Stealth is not All-weather, please tell me you knew that the B-2, and F-117 were NOT all weather aircraft. As a matter of fact, not that many aircraft are all weather. The B-2 and F-117, because of the RAM coating, can only be restricted to clear weather, but for your purposes, I will try to find a source on the internet that states this clearly. Not now, because I don't have all that much time, and if I come up with nothing, then well you were right.

Shattered OUT...

Originally posted by Mandalorianwarrior
American Mad Man, do you have military training and experience? I would have to say that you do. Either that or you are well studied. You always bring up valid points as to why something is tactically and/or strategically sound. Once again, great post about why stealth tech. is a great benefit to who ever owns it.

No military training - I'm a wunna be

I tried to join the marines out of HS, but a bum knee kept me from passing my physical. Then I got into aviation during college, but I took the 5 and a half year plan through school because I wanted to travel.

That kinda killed my ability to go into the USAF and come out at an age where I could still start my own buisness and devote all my energy to it. But yeah, I read a lot, and I have a LOT of friends in the military that I pick for knowledge.

Stealth is good, but putting all your eggs in one technological basket is a bad idea. Say a new detection/tracking technology came along that made reduced RCS irrelevant - instantly billions of dollars worth of airframes become obsolete.

That's why I prefer designs like the F-22, which combines stealth characteristics with a still-extremely capable high-performance fighter - to designs like the F-117, which sacrifices just about every other consideration for stealth.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
Hey, I'm just telling you what the guys that work on the plane told us when we got to go near it. If it's BS it came from the crew chiefs of the plane that we were near.

Does he really work on a stealth, or is he just pulling your chain?

I have talked to and gotten an autograph from a REAL B-2 Pilot ( I saw his pilot wings, and his unit patch from the 509th Bombing wing, when I got his autograph). He said they need to be careful of dents and scratch that go Through the paint. Otherwise they aren't much different than any other plane.

Stealth is better than most people give it creadit for.

Tim

Originally posted by out of this world
They are also placing too much reliance on stealth. They are betting so much that the plane wont be seen that they are close to taking the gun away. This would eliminate dogfighting and contrary to what many believe on here I think dogfighting is still a major part of battle. I mean look what they said in vietnam after wwII and Korea. We had to learn how to dogfight again. So I think that stealth is overrated.

I would disagree here. Dogfighting has been looked down on since the Corsair started beating up Zero (that could out-turn any American plane) by using surprise attack in a high speed pass. Both sides favored that approach in Korea when then could set up for it; turning contests were entered into as a last resort.
In Vietnam, Visual Identification of enemy aircraft before combat was ordered, negating the huge investment the Navy an Air Force made in long range stand off missiles, and requiring a revisit to the lost art.
Today Red Flag and Top Gun are less who can pull the cuteist "Cobra" but how to stay the hell out of a situation where any aggressor could be in a position to pull a trigger on you.
Given the choice between the latest Russian forward swept concept with a pilot with helmet mounted AAM and the old 117 tricked out to launch LRAAM I would feel a lot safer about my chances with Stealth around me.

Originally posted by ghost

Originally posted by Zaphod58
Hey, I'm just telling you what the guys that work on the plane told us when we got to go near it. If it's BS it came from the crew chiefs of the plane that we were near.

Does he really work on a stealth, or is he just pulling your chain?

I have talked to and gotten an autograph from a REAL B-2 Pilot ( I saw his pilot wings, and his unit patch from the 509th Bombing wing, when I got his autograph). He said they need to be careful of dents and scratch that go Through the paint. Otherwise they aren't much different than any other plane.

Stealth is better than most people give it creadit for.

Tim

Uh, considering that he walked up to us after talking to the rest of the guys that were around the airplane, and they went to work on it right after he walked away, and he was wearing the squadron hat, and had his name painted on the side of the canopy, I'd have to say that YES he really did work on the plane. Was there some part of the words CREW CHIEFS that wasn't clear?

Oh and for the record, they were ALSO concerned about dirt and other things getting onto the skin. They had to wear gloves when they were having to touch the skin, and before they walked on it, they had to put cloth booties over their boots. No other airplane requires that you do that before walking on the skin. The only other airplane that I've seen you have to do that was the Emporer of Japan's 747 and that was so that you didn't have to take your boots off when you went on it. heh.

I have also talked to REAL B-2 pilots as well. I got an escort around the plane, as in right underneath it by one. I'm pretty sure HE worked on the plane too, considering that he breezed right past the security guys, and security was a LITTLE bit tight around the airplane.



[edit on 9/23/2005 by Zaphod58]

[edit on 9/23/2005 by Zaphod58]

What happend to the 117 that was shot down in serbia?? Did they give it to their russians buddies to inspect it????

No one knows for sure.

Some reports say that what remained of the F-117 was given to the Chinese, and that is why the USAF “accidentally” bombed their embassy.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Some reports say that what remained of the F-117 was given to the Chinese, and that is why the USAF “accidentally” bombed their embassy.

yes a accident

A cruise missle that is deadly accurate now accidently hits the chinese embassy.

American arms only under performs when it is necessary

Originally posted by WestPoint23
No one knows for sure.

Some reports say that what remained of the F-117 was given to the Chinese, and that is why the USAF “accidentally” bombed their embassy.

No one knows for sure ? It's in the Belgrade Aviation museum basement.