NEWS: Chavez Turns the other Cheek: Offers Oil to the Poor of the US

Originally posted by futuretense
Yeah now old Pat wants to change his story to kidnapping?........and our taking him out would have been better that conducting a war to oust him?

So is he saying that we conduct wars to kidnap guys like this.....not defeat or kill them mind you............just kidnap them right Pat?............

futuretense! I'm surprised at your inability to see what Pat (My ears are lethal weapons, and I look like Dubs old reprobate uncle) Robertson really meant.

He, in fact, simply wants to ask Chavez out... Perhaps a dinner date???

Originally posted by nikelbee
Remember that a lot of times we repeat the propaganda from our governments verbatim because they want us to think ALL socialists are bad and are threatening our way of life. If anyone is threatening our way of life it is our own government. Have you seen oil prices lately? Or house prices? Look how much money is being spent on the war. How much of our population needs health care? How many are illiterate and unskilled? Did you read about the states declaring State of Emergency because of border problems and lack of funding?

You have voted nikelbee for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more vote left for this month.

Your entire post was good, but in that one paragraph you nailed several of the biggest problems facing the US:
Oil prices
Insecure borders
Health care

I would add that we need a kickass policy in Iraq, but that's just me. How can it be that our leaders are doing seeemingly nothing to address these problems?

Anybody have Chavez' address or phone number? I know a whole bunch of poor people that could benefit from cheap oil.

Originally posted by nikelbee
Shots

In the article it says they have already done something similar with Cuba and just signed a deal with Jamaica to do the same.

Apparently they 'swap' the oil for services, for those who cannot pay the prices.

I'm unsure whether this same thing could work in the US, but it isn't a new concept. Lots of country doctors and lawyers used to take payment in services or goods when money wasn't available.

That makes it even more useless. How many gas stations do you kow that will take services for Gas and just what would those services be?

And lets not forget the oil companies are going to want their cut of the action for their services, how are they going to get paid? Surely you do not expect them to work work the oil companies also, boy that is a hoot.

Like I said it is nothing but lip service, since the logistics of carrying something like this are huge

[edit on 8/25/2005 by shots]

I think it could be done. Like what was mentioned earlier, Venezuela owns Citgo with 14,000 pumps. Just have gas cost more for the guy that pulls up with the jaguar compared to the guy in a car that is 10 years old and sputters. Or if the neighborhood is poor, have that station charge less. I don't see Hugo's plan for the poor working any other way in the U.S. including exchanging gas for services.

So, that is what I think will come about. The more I hear about Hugo Chavez (which isn't too much I admit), the more I respect some of what he does. He seems to be smart too. If this is a political move by a smart man, he at least has to try to get this gas price reduction targeting the poor in U.S. under way otherwise he looks like a liar and that isn't a smart political move indicative of a smart politician like my impression of Hugo Chavez tells me he is.

Originally posted by kilendrial
Just have gas cost more for the guy that pulls up with the jaguar compared to the guy in a car that is 10 years old and sputters. Or if the neighborhood is poor, have that station charge less. I don't see Hugo's plan for the poor working any other way in the U.S. including exchanging gas for services.

First you can not base sales on the type of car you drive and obviously you are not aware that many rich people drive old cars, they got richer by not buying new ones

Second just because a neigbohood is poor does not make everyone living in that area poor. Using your logic those who are not poor could just pull up to the pumps and fill up at lower prices and do not forget that others from outside those areas could also pull up to those pumps and fill up.

You have to have a system of checks and balances which you have not given

First you can not base sales on the type of car you drive and obviously you are not aware that many rich people drive old cars, they got richer by not buying new ones

I was aware of that, but I figured that more poor people drive low-end cars compared to richer people. A system that changed price based on car would then in effect target poorer people with a lower price more compared to richer people. Yeah, i totally understand that a rich person is physically capable of driving a low-end car and I am sure some do. So? Is that going to present that much of a problem? The problem will be there, but you made no attempt to try to deduce how much effect it will have.

And are you sure you "can't" do this. Is this determination based on law?

Second just because a neigbohood is poor does not make everyone living in that area poor. Using your logic those who are not poor could just pull up to the pumps and fill up at lower prices and do not forget that others from outside those areas could also pull up to those pumps and fill up.

I realize this too. So? It can still be predominately distributed to people in the community rather than outsiders or people who are relatively rich in a community. Lets say that the statistics in some town is 50% below the poverty line. Your customers would then be more likely to be poor and that would help the poor more than giving that break in somewhere where only 10% are below the poverty line. This also depends on what will be the price cut, will it be worth coming into town and using up gas and time to get the cheaper price. How about the guilt of exploiting a system not meant to benefit that person?

The other option of course is for a person to get a statement of income from the IRS and provide it to the company and then they get a card to identify them for the purposes of the gas station and price reduction.

But you can even nitpick this example. Not all rich people have income. In fact, people in that category are some of the richest people out there. Some people can try to cheat on their taxes. The fact is, no system is going to be perfect and I don't think any human made system ever has been. Congratulations on recognizing this in the 2 systems that I threw out there.

Originally posted by kilendrial
And are you sure you "can't" do this. Is this determination based on law?

Based on the fact that services have to be rendered Yes, I do think using that one perimeter alone it is impossible and no it is not based on law.

As I said in my post - I am unsure how this will work.

Maybe it would be through a community co-op type thing where you register and prove you are lower income and then get a special card that will allow you to get cheaper gas.

I'm sure if it is true we will hear about it in future.

I spent a little time in Venezula pre-chavez and it truely is a country of contrast, the rich very rich are and the poor have practically nothing over 40% have no electricity even more have no water or sewage system. When I waqs there Gasoline was about 15c a gallon and water was 90c a gallon, the poor could affoed to run a gaz guzzler but not get a drink!!!

You have to remember this country is not one where the poor have the opportunity to go and make something of themselves and lift themselves out of poverty, the pooor have to go and make something just to survive. Chavez key to remaining in power is enact socalist reform as otherwise the 80% of the population the live in poverty with no other hope, who elected him would kick him out.

Nice article by one of the few Americans that care...


www.gregpalast.com...


nice read and a great journalist btw!



[edit on 26/8/2005 by Corinthas]

What an excellent link! A good informative article too. I notice he writes for the Guardian as well.

Thanks for that

Originally posted by nikelbee
As I said in my post - I am unsure how this will work.

But you said they already did it in Cuba, how did they do it there and be specific?

I'm sure if it is true we will hear about it in future.

I would not hold my breath if I were you

Originally posted by shots
But you said they already did it in Cuba, how did they do it there and be specific?

Being Specific...

The "Integral Cooperation Accord" signed by Fidel Castro and Hugo Chavez in October 2000 laid the groundwork for a quasi-barter exchange of Venezuelan oil for Cuban goods and services that has since become a lifeline keeping Havana afloat.

The original agreement (2) sealed by Castro and Chavez in Caracas in 2000 allowed for the sale, at market prices, of up to 53,000 barrels per day of crude oil and derivatives (diesel, gasoline, jet fuel, etc.) by PDVSA, Venezuela's state-owned petroleum company, to its Cuban counterpart, CUPET.

Under the accord, PDVSA extended preferential payment terms to CUPET, including 90-day short-term financing instead of the 30 days offered to its other customers and, in lieu of a standard letter of credit backed by an international bank, PDVSA accepted IOUs from Cuba's Banco Nacional, the central banking entity responsible for servicing Havana's foreign debt. Last but not least, the accord established a long-term financing plan, at a token interest rate, on up to 25 percent of the value of oil shipments to the island.

For its part, Havana committed to sending its physicians and other healthcare specialists to work in underserved areas in Venezuela, at no additional costs to Caracas other than room and board for Cuban personnel.

I will provide the link if you want to read the entire article and learn more about how they are doing it.

As I said previously, I have NO idea if this would work in the US. I am just informing that they have already done it with Cuba and it appears quite succesfully as well.


www.cartadecuba.org...'s_venezuelan_bonanza.htm
www.commondreams.org...
www.economist.com...




[edit on 26-8-2005 by nikelbee]

Pat Roberston remarked a few days ago that Chavez should be assassinated as it would be cheaper and easier than going to war.

Amazing! This man who is heard daily by many millions of Amercians on television and radio represents Christianity and the Christian right?!?!?!?

Take a break Pat, read the Bible for once including the words of Jesus Christ, and learn not to utter stupidity of that kind on the public air waves!

Your words reveal what's in your heart, Pat. A word spoken cannot be re-called. Better yet, maybe it's time to zip your lip and retire.

Hats off to Hugo Chavez. If only GW . . .

Originally posted by nikelbee
Being Specific...

The "Integral Cooperation Accord" signed by Fidel Castro and Hugo Chavez in October 2000 laid the groundwork for a quasi-barter exchange of Venezuelan oil for Cuban goods and services that has since become a lifeline keeping Havana afloat.

The original agreement (2) sealed by Castro and Chavez in Caracas in 2000 allowed for the sale, at market prices, of up to 53,000 barrels per day of crude oil and derivatives (diesel, gasoline, jet fuel, etc.) by PDVSA, Venezuela's state-owned petroleum company, to its Cuban counterpart, CUPET.

Under the accord, PDVSA extended preferential payment terms to CUPET, including 90-day short-term financing instead of the 30 days offered to its other customers and, in lieu of a standard letter of credit backed by an international bank, PDVSA accepted IOUs from Cuba's Banco Nacional, the central banking entity responsible for servicing Havana's foreign debt. Last but not least, the accord established a long-term financing plan, at a token interest rate, on up to 25 percent of the value of oil shipments to the island.

For its part, Havana committed to sending its physicians and other healthcare specialists to work in underserved areas in Venezuela, at no additional costs to Caracas other than room and board for Cuban personnel.

But your original contention was they were getting oil cheaper that is not the case at all. They got the oil at market prices at the time and paid for them using the barter system. There is no mention of giving it to the poor.



[edit on 8/26/2005 by shots]

Shots

I'm not exactly sure what your point is. I've sent you links and I've posted the original article which stated what I said regarding services and cheaper oil. My assumption does not difer from what has been published - except perhaps for a wish that something be done about the current oil crisis.

Here is a direct quote from the first article I posted.

Jamaica yesterday became the first Caribbean country to reach an agreement with Venezuela for oil at below-market terms. The Petrocaribe initiative is a plan to offer oil at flexible rates to 13 Caribbean countries. Jamaica will pay $40 a barrel, against a market rate of more than $60.

To me that means he is selling oil at a cheaper than average price to countries like Jamaica. He purposes to do it with others. For those that cannot afford the prices (usually meaning they are too poor) he has entered into a trade agreement that allows the people of Venezuela to have doctors and such in EXCHANGE for cheaper oil for the people of Cuba - regardless of their economic status.

If Cuba is paying normal prices - why would Casto volunteer 12,000 or so of his country's medical staff to go and work in Venezuela for free? Doctors and carers are valuable commodities in any country.

If you don't agree with his policies that is a different matter, but I have provided you with the relevant links and cannot do more.

Interesting theory. Keep floating it and watch it sink.

Odysseus

It isn't a theory it is fact. He is selling cheaper oil.

Originally posted by nikelbee
Shots

I'm not exactly sure what your point is.

My point is the oil is not going to the poor as you contended it is keeping the Cuban government afloat by using alternate methods of payment for oil since it clearly stated it was at markert price

One link was dead so could not varify that part that is the 2nd one listed above.

The other refers to lower credit which is not the same as lower the price of oil for the poor. You said they oil was going to the poor and you have yet to prove that, why?

Shots,

Why don't you spend some time reading the links instead of trolling. All you have been demanding over the last few posts is to 'prove this and prove that' when you have not even read the links I've sent you. Here is some advice - READ some of them.

Here are 3 some more for you. Notice the word Cheaper oil in all three of them. Where is the proof that they aren't selling in as lower than average? I don't see you doing anything but repeating it isn't cheaper but at market value?

As for poorer - Chavez told the US he woud like to supply cheaper oil the the poor communities. It is in the first article I sent you.

You are wasting my time and you don't make any valid points. Go hassle someone else's thread if you don't have anything valuable to contribute.



CNN - Cuba gets GENEROUSLY financed oil:

Chavez said Venezuela could supply gasoline to Americans at half the price they now pay if intermediaries who "speculated ... and exploited consumers" were cut out.

Venezuela supplies Cuba with generously financed oil and plans to help Caribbean nations foot their oil bills.

edition.cnn.com...

Guardian - Cheap Cuban oil: "Cuban doctors are working in the poorer areas of Venezuela in exchange for cheap oil going to Cuba."

www.guardian.co.uk...

CSMonitor - Thirteen Caribbean nation sign a deal for cheap oil

In the past 30 days, the leader of the world's fifth-largest oil exporting country, has inked deals with Argentina, Brazil, Uruguay, and Paraguay. Thirteen Caribbean nations signed a deal for cheap oil in June. And since April, Cuba has been getting almost all of its oil from Venezuela in exchange for doctors and gym teachers.

csmonitor.com...



[edit on 26-8-2005 by nikelbee]