Should Death Row Inmates be Test Subjects?

I have to agree with JN. What the hell's going on here people? We have fanatics running around the country becoming militant to stop testing on animals, and then you turn around and say...

yeah, but it'll be alright for people. Yoohoo! The justice system is set up to mete out appropriate punishments. Therefore, if some one's sitting in prison they are SERVING THEIR PUNISHMENT. They needn't be relegated to something less than a lab rat!

Skadi here are some examples...

www.manhattan-institute.org...

"As in a mystery story, Sereny reveals the horrific extent of Mary's abuse only in the last chapters of this book. But it is what informs her guiding thesis throughout: namely, that children commit violence only when, as a result of severe trauma, their "long pent-up anger and suppressed emotions" can no longer be contained. In Sereny's view, it is unjust to subject such children to trial and punishment, or even to think of their crimes in terms of evil; they are less actors than acted upon.

Unfortunately, Mary's fate was otherwise. In their singleminded concern with determining her guilt or innocence, the authorities made no attempt to discover the truth about Mary's horrendous home life. As a result, a child who needed the help of trained psychiatrists was instead put on trial before a jury "neither qualified nor required to deal with the pathology of disturbed children," was found guilty, and was punished. For Sereny, the outrage is that the very thing most relevant to this case�namely, Mary's past�was ignored, while the "almost irrelevant" facts of the two murders were elevated to center stage"


www.facstaff.bucknell.edu...

The director, Dominic Herbst, presents a model of a cycle of violence. When a child is abused by a parent and is unable to defend him or herself, the child learns to suppress emotions so that these experiences will not be so painful. Having suppressed emotions, the child then also finds it easy to be aggressive and hurtful with others. When this behavior continues unchecked it can lead to crime and abuse of others. Hope for Life is a program where delinquents and inmates share life histories, reflect on instances of abuse in their lives when they were young, and explore how this past abuse has led them not to see ways they have abused others like their wives, children, and parents.

faculty.ncwc.edu...

There's an additional way to think about the stages in this cycle, and that is to think of them as phases. Phase 1 (aura phase) in which the twisted thoughts occur. Phase 2 (trolling) in which they go out and look for the perfect victim. Phase 3 (seduction) in which the trap is laid. Phase 4 (capture) in which the victim is at their most vulnerable moment. Phase 5 (the kill) in which all the suppressed emotions are let loose. Phase 6 (totem or trophy) in which souvenirs or props are used as reminders. Phase 7 (depression) in which there seems to be withdrawals from the kill.


www.pen.eiu.edu...

Another common characteristic found among serial killers is that most were abused as children. The abuse can be physical, sexual or emotional. In addition to abuse, many suffered either physical or emotional neglect at the hands of their parents or caregivers. As is common in many cases of abused children, physical and/or sexual abuse is often accompanied by emotional or physical neglect. For example, in a situation where is parent is hitting a child; the parent is also verbally berating the child, calling him names. Although it is not understood why some children can deal with abuse "better" than other children, it is obvious that "the abuse leaves an impression on the future killer which alters his life drastically"(Goldman, 1997). The history of abuse in a killer's background is extremely indicative of the effects of child abuse. While it would be overly simplistic to say that abuse specifically caused a child to become a killer, it would not be unfair or untrue to say that "the abuse was a key component"(Goldman, 1997).

An earlier study conducted in the late 1960's reached similar conclusions with respect to characteristics common in serial killers. In this study, psychiatrists interviewed thirty-one murderers in prisons throughout the United States and Canada. The research included interviews with family members, friends, teachers, police and probation authorities. The researchers found that these killers had been severely abused and that this abuse generated "overwhelmingly hostile and ultimately murderous emotions"(Methvin, 1995). As children, many had been subjected to repeated physical or sexual abuse. As adolescents and adults they experienced "gender confusion, chaotic sexual behavior and periodic cross dressing"(Methvin, 1995). While delusions often resulted from the rage and confused sexual impulses these killers experienced, amazingly, these killers were organized and rational enough to plan and execute multiple murders (Methvin, 1995).


Take good note of this part...

Although it is not understood why some children can deal with abuse "better" than other children, it is obvious that "the abuse leaves an impression on the future killer which alters his life drastically"(Goldman, 1997).

Some people are better able deal with the trauma than others, but the other side of the medal is, that it can also make you sick. The weak have a great chance to be commiting crimes or becoming ill. It's about how you are able to cope with the emotions lying dormant within... Almost all don't know they have this problem, or they simply can't see it.

In other words.. It still can make you a scumbag; it depends on your ability to cope with it...




[Edited on 1-9-2003 by TheBandit795]

Yes, yes, I have read several texts from psychiatrists blaming "pent up anger" for acts of violence. Boo Hoo. Your mommy and daddy beat you. That excuses everything.

One big problem with the world today: people cant accept RESPONSIBILITY for thier own actions. They blame everything and everyone BUT THEMSELVES. Boo Hoo. Your mommy beat you as a kid and mentally abused you, so its ok to go out and #ing kill and rape. Its not your fault, your the victim, not the person you just mutilated.

With RIGHTS come RESPONSIBILITY. Responsibility for ones own actions. Life aint always peachy. Not everyone gets to sample the finer aspects of life. This in no way excuses them from person responsibilities and actions.

You kill someone, YOU made that choice, not mommy.

The world is full of horrible people and horrible things.

Timmy Mc Veigh blew up a #load of people because of his "pent up rage at the govornment". I can understand his rage. But to do what he did? Im still pissed at the govornment and hate it for what it has done. yet i have no inclinations of waging bomb warfare against it.

Freedom means responsibility. If people cannot handle themselves and be responsibly for thier own actions and accept the blame, yes I did what i did because i felt like it, because I have little control over myself, then these people do not deserve freedom or rights.

Stop blaming what happens to people and accept the fact that people do horrible things because they CHOOSE to. No one made them. The millions of people daily who live life with horrid things happening to them dont go out and kill or do horrid things to others. Its because they believe in self accountability, and CHOOSE not to.

To an extent, every death row inmate becomes a test subject when he or she is executed. It's unavoidable.

There are some characteristic differences between nations where capital punishment still exists, and nations where it doesn't.

There is a fair bit to learn from people who commit the worst crimes, in the field of crime prevention.

Skadi,

I am not insinuating that people whose crimes beg for a death sentence not be given that death sentence. And I agree that there really isn't any mitigating circumstance if you commit cold-blooded murder. But the original post queried whether it would be ethical to perform hitherto unknown tests on these guys while they're waiting to be fried. NOT okay. Well, not okay, unless they are asked and say "Hell, yeah. I'm dying anyway...test me!"

Another problem with these people is that they don't see if they're or not... Do you think Timothy Mc Veigh thought he was wrong??? Do you think Adolf Hitler thought he was wrong??? Charles Manson???

These people don't SEE it... I have a uncle who is causes a lot of distress within the family, but he doesn't SEE it. He blames everything on "them". Beliefs & emotions can cloud your mind and stop you from thinking rationally. With some people it can be more extreme than others...

Of course they're responsible for whatever they've done. The problem is that lots of times they don't see that they're doing something wrong. They often think they're doing the right thing. Serious criminals and the such, often have a different logic than the masses, which practically always comes out of their internal programming (subconscious mind), in which emotions play a huge role.

You should study the subconsious mind a little... It determines what you do most of the time, if you don't have the willpower to change it. And 99% of people don't know how to use it.

Ok ok......I was a bit rash in the original post. I agree it would be better to do it to only volunteers.....I mean, If I was waiting to burn, I sure wouldn't mind being tested on.....why the hell not? I'd have already #ed up my life, but I realise that innocents would innevitabely be killed otherwise so it is fair enough. But, on the other hand, I don't believe the same choice to, say, a guy who walks intot he courtroom boasting about the 17 children he ate - In cases like that, they should be OUR Bitches!

BTW, I don't agree with the Death Sentence at all, or Prison, that isn't the topic.....I know the Death Sentence is barbaric, I agree. I'm just thinking of a way we can actually GET something out of it, other than the executioners smug satisfaction....

Do you think Adolf Hitler thought he was wrong???

ASh, good old Adolf, another example. His daddy beat him as a little kid. So, does that exciuse his behavior? Oh, Ill order the deaths of 6 million Jews and start a huge war.......cuz I was abused! Gosh dangit, we didnt need to attack the bastard! We should have just given him a hug! Thats all he needed! A hug, and maybe a Jewish shrink to set him on the right path!

Hitler chose to blame all his problems on the Jews. Typical of any sociopath. Do you understand the mind of a psychopath? Psychopaths, like any personality disorder, are next to impossible to treat. They have been know to manipulate thier doctors and anyone around.

The question here tho, isnt whether the death penalty is right or wrong, it whether they should be used for experiments. In a perfect legal system that only sentances people who really deserve death to death, then Id agree. But not in the current legal system, too corrupt, too big a joke. And add the test subject factor, you might have people unnecessarily sentanced to death on the proddings of say a drug company or research lab who need new flesh to test out the next drug. Too many problems in the current system. But in a perfect one, with a govornment that wasnt so corrupt, id rather see a piece of # like Ted Bundy get pumped up with chemical elxers than a chimpanzee or bunny.

Thats a good idea, Val, volounteer themselves as test subjects. Thier last chance at some sort of redemption to pay back society for thier ill deeds. fair enough. If its volontary, then that would be cool.

i think that we may aswell test stuff on them theya rn't going anywhere and we just have to pay for them in taxes anyways, but i think not only death row inmates but all inmates could be tested or the non deathrowites should atleasthave to work like crazy, or just kill'em all

Impossible because you are asking to support a conviction of a criminal on what basis?,we only have limited information on these things,an innocent man could be accused of a heinous crime,and it seems that that condemns him before the trial even takes place.
Convicted by the media,like that peterson guy.
There is no such thing as an impartial jury because our entire country is a media cesspool .
We really have no thoughts of our own.
The government are the criminals,they distract us from that by turning us against one another down here,let's put them on trial.

Once again, I suggest you to read up on how the mind works... I would totally agree with you if us humans only had our conscious minds. But we do not. We are more than what the average person thinks...

More info here that psychopats are created and not born. People are not born evil & sick.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

P.s: It's in RATS, so if you haven't paid the 3500 points, you can't see the link.


[Edited on 27-9-2003 by TheBandit795]

Why not test stuff on these criminals? The troops that fight for your rights are being used for testing but no one is sapposed to know about that. These criminals commited a crime that by our laws says they should be put to death and for that they should no longer have a choose of what happens to them for the rest of the time they are alive. They gave up that right the second they were found guilty. And while there sitting in there cell waiting to die, wasting our money why not put them to good use. Maybe if our punishments were a little stiffer in this country then maybe some people would think before they commited a crime. Death by lethal injection is complete bull #. Why allow these people that destroyed someones family to get off so easy. I am about sick of this crap. And what is this crap about giving them a nice meal before they are put to death. Come on don't waste good found on these worthless pieces of trash they don't deserve it. I'm all for doing experiments on criminals put on death row. So point me towards the petition to start the testing and I will be the first to sign.

I'd venture to offer that the experimentation is and has been happening with death row inmates for quite sometime....though i've never heard instance of it. And most definitely needs to cease!

Yeah, why not? They're going to die anyways. Just give them some numbing medicine before they get tested. And also, they can be tested on, just not some super gruesome # that's inhumane.

At least these inmates test results could be easily compiled. Remember that the government has done experiments on the "free " citizens. Remember MK Ultra of the 60's? The U.S. Army radiation tests of the 50's ? what is the difference. At least it would be easier for the government. Mabye then they would leave the law abiding citizens like myself alone.