NEWS: Lord Tebbit: No Advances In Muslim World In 500 Years Due To Islam

Ex Conservative party chairman, Lord Tebbit, has caused controversy over his remarks on Islam. He has claimed that "unreformed" Islam is responsible for the lack of any advances in art, literature, science or technology in the Muslim world for 500 years. He also claimed that multiculturalism is "impossible" as more than one culture in a society undermines loyalty for the state.



Where is this guys brown shirt?

Oh no we cant blame the current antipathy between muslims and the western world on the past 50 years of failed national building and interference, it has to be because "they" are backward.

Well im sure the same was said about the Native American's by the pioneers in the 1800's.

This guy is a racist and a bigot.

"Well im sure the same was said about the Native American's by the pioneers in the 1800's."

Different situation - that was imposition of one culture upon another by use of force.

The situation in the UK is about how members of incoming communities (of whatever colour and flavour) have integrated or not.









[edit on 19-8-2005 by hands]

Tebbit is talking about the Muslim world. We are imposing Western ideals such as "democracy" and liberalism as well as everything else we believe in on the Middle Eastern countries. Is this right because we believe we are doing right? Tebbit seems to justify this by claiming they are backward, not particularly different to the pioneers and Indians.

We're 'regime changing' and getting access to what we want easier. Its more sophisticated nowadays than it was 200 years ago but the aim is the same.

Excuse me. I think this guy is right on. Just start with the way muslims treat women, and you're well on your way back in time. How can muslims be advancing when they are so tightly controlled by a religion dreamed up in the 5th century AD? A religion that seems to say that everything that is new or that it doesn't know about is bad. All can agree that the world has changed very much since the time of Mohammed, but has his religion also evolved to keep pace? The answer again seems to be no. It also could be a matter of time allowed to be creative in the arts, sciences, etc. Let's face it , while muslims are forced to take time out for prayers multiple times each day, the rest of the world goes on working, learning, creating, etc.

centurion1211, thats not the point. The point is we have no right to enforce our ideals on any other country.

We dont allow gay marriages in most Western countries. There is no basis for that other than Christianity. We dont allow men to marry more than one woman. There is no basis for this other than Christianity.

Who are we to throw stones about being backward thanks to religion?

from Subz's post: The point is we have no right to enforce our ideals on any other country.

Tebbit was talking about immigrants into the UK. (i.e. his country)

I believe very strongly that he was wrong to single out muslims and islam because immigrants from all sorts of backgrounds have the same sort of problems integrating into British society but he is right to raise the question about the policy of 'multi culturalism.'

The value of Islam and its contribution and place in the modern world is a whole 'nother thread.

Originally posted by hands
Tebbit was talking about immigrants into the UK

[...]

The value of Islam and its contribution and place in the modern world is a whole 'nother thread

From the original news story
Islam is so unreformed there have been no real advance in art, literature, science or technology in the Muslim world in 500 years, Lord Tebbit says

He was talking about the muslim world AND multiculturalism in Britain. No other thread needed

How can muslims be advancing when they are so tightly controlled by a religion dreamed up in the 5th century AD?

How can the christians be tolerant of others and opened minded when they are so tightly controlled by a religion dreamed up before the 5th century AD, and extensively manipulated over the years to further the social and / or political goals of those in power at the time?

How many version of the Bible are there again? Let's see off the top of my head we've got at least some collection of hebew texts, the Catholic Bible with its extra books, the King James version, the Mormons with their additional books, ... oh and of course the New International Version.

How can any sane person claim that the 'Bible' is anything but the word of man (and not that of 'God') when it has been so obviously and so frequently manipulated by those in power to further their agenda?

And now back to our regularly scheduled program...

I've often wondered how a nation that welcomes immigrants can be certain of their loyalties. It seems like it could be dangerous for the stability and national security of any nation, regardless of their political structure, or their primary religious beliefs.

Obviously these same concerns were behind the internment camps for Japanese immigrants during world war II in the United States, although the fears seem to have been largely unfounded in that case.


[edit on 2005/8/19 by McGrude]

quote function not working for me, anyway

-subz

"We dont allow gay marriages in most Western countries. There is no basis for that other than Christianity. We dont allow men to marry more than one woman. There is no basis for this other than Christianity. "

So not being sexually permiscius and not being a homosexual is considered backward? Id hate to see what you thought normal was.
I think these are just good morals. Should we just sit around like the sodomites and have sex with anything we want? Im sorry, you hate christianity so you probably dont know who the sodomites were. God condemned sodom and gomorrah for these kinds of things. I know you have no fear of the Lord so you snub your thumb at Him, but there is a lesson to the story. That if you let these things become "ok" the moral fabric of your society degrades to the point of anarchy.

Religious intolerance is and always will be the thorn in the side of the human race. As will ignorance. But hey, feeling threatened and attacking what we don't understand? That sounds fun eh?

These people died in the name of Allah. Who, innocent civilians? Wrong place at the wrong time? All they were guilty of was GOING TO WORK!

Let's talk about witch hunting and the paranoia of god-fearing rednecks that lead to the executions of hundreds of men, women and children. She looks a bit dodgy, what's she doing now? WITCH, HANG HER!

Let's just talk about man killing man.

I don't know who is worse. Religious fanatics or the "Gods" that sit by and let this happen.

Are Lord Tebbit's claims unfounded? Are they blind comments attacking a familiar face of terrorism that both British and American people share? Everyone needs a bad guy. What we have to ask is, these fanatics that everyone is attacking, have they done right or wrong?

[edit on 19-8-2005 by alexias]

Originally posted by XphilesPhan
quote function not working for me, anyway

It works manually

Originally posted by XphilesPhan
So not being sexually permiscius and not being a homosexual is considered backward? Id hate to see what you thought normal was.

I can see how you might of interpreted that from what I wrote but that was not my implication. The meaning of that was to highlight that the inclusion of religion in a modern nation does not automaticaly imply being "backward".

We Westerners have religion in our laws, which is fine.
Muslim nations have a different religion in their laws, which is fine too.

Just because we dont agree with their laws does not automatically make them wrong. It also doesnt automatically give us a right to enforce our 'morals' on them either.

Originally posted by XphilesPhan
I think these are just good morals

Thats fine, you're entitled to that and I respect your morals. But you must understand that muslims are fine with the way women are treated and all the other Islamic traditions. If you have some kind of right to criticise their morals then they should have a right to criticise ours.

Originally posted by XphilesPhan
That if you let these things become "ok" the moral fabric of your society degrades to the point of anarchy.

Dont you see? Thats the whole point I was trying to make. We cant allow people to call the Muslim world backwards because they adhere to their own religious morals. We do the very same

I hope that clarifies the matter somewhat.

A wise man once said: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

[edit on 19/8/05 by subz]

"Religious intolerance is and always will be the thorn in the side of the human race. As will ignorance. But hey, feeling threatened and attacking what we don't understand? That sounds fun eh?"

It's not that we dont understand them or have knowledge of their customs etc. Its that we want nothing to do with THEM! This is not hard to figure out.

"It's not that we dont understand them or have knowledge of their customs etc. Its that we want nothing to do with THEM! This is not hard to figure out."

This is an ignorant comment.

I'm sure the innocent Muslim civilians don't feel too kindly about being occupied at the moment to be honest.
Having their religion, their race blighted by fanatics aparently working in the name of their god can't be an easy thing to deal with either. British Muslims are living in fear of their lives. But at the same time, as are the rest of the British people from a threat that is now on their doorstep.

On different lines, I think that Multiculturism is the worst thing that has graced the history of the United Kingdom. One example, Christmas has been a very important day on the British calendar. Christianity has been the dominating religion in the UK since who knows when. Now, it is under threat by Political Correctness of being changed to Winterval/Winterfall. Does anyone think this is right? I don't.

I am very proud of being British. The past thirty generations of my family were born and raised in Britain.
It is my government that I have issues with.

He was talking about the muslim world AND multiculturalism in Britain. No other thread needed

But you were talking about imposing western values on another country not in the context of the UK ie his own nationality. Just as it is wrong to seek to impose islamic values on a country not from that tradition.

The discussion so far seems to be about the value or not of the islamic tradition not about the true question which is - how does society as a whole promote integration or why does it fail so spectacularly that people in Leeds identify more with distant Pakistan / India / Bangladesh ?

Oh yeah - the kids learn to cook onion bhajhi's. and celibrate Diwali

Originally posted by hands
But you were talking about imposing western values on another country not in the context of the UK ie his own nationality. Just as it is wrong to seek to impose islamic values on a country not from that tradition.

So what are you saying here? That I should give examples of how the UK has imposed its own values on the Middle East? Or that Tebbit isnt justifying the War on Terrorism on the fact that Middle Eastern countries are "backwards" and that they dont assimilate when they immigrate here?

Originally posted by hands
The discussion so far seems to be about the value or not of the islamic tradition

Tebbit described the Muslim world as "backwards". How does that not invite discussion about why some people believe they are NOT "backwards"? There is more than one issue brought up by Tebbit's comments. If you want to focus on one part, please do. Others will discuss the other issues, ok?

Originally posted by hands
the true question which is - how does society as a whole promote integration or why does it fail so spectacularly that people in Leeds identify more with distant Pakistan / India / Bangladesh

You might have noticed but multiculturalism only thrives in "free and democratic" countries. We dont cater for laws that prohibit one type of culture over another. The only thing we prohibit are illegal acts. There is no compulsion to adhere to any culture or religion in our Western countries. This is why our society fails so "spectacularly" in forcing people to integrate into "our" culture.

If we want to force people to integrate into our society then we have to reconsider pretty much every civil right we have. We would have to allow for the dictation of what constitutes British culture and be prepared to adhere to it ourselves under pains of fines/punishment.

When we start going down that road we start to become increasingly as "backward" as the good Lord Tebbit describes the Muslim world.

Voted up on your post Subz and I concur with your initial comments on this man's remarks. He sounds like a Brit member of the KKK or something. Who is the man?, and why should anyone pay any attention to him?

Originally posted by Astronomer68
Voted up on your post Subz

Im glad some one did, thanks buddy

Originally posted by Astronomer68
I concur with your initial comments on this man's remarks. He sounds like a Brit member of the KKK or something. Who is the man?, and why should anyone pay any attention to him?

He is the former Conservative party chairman. He lead the party of the likes of Maggie Thatcher and John Major.

He was a close ally of Margaret Thatcher and served as her Secretary of State for Employment, Secretary of State for Trade and Industry and President of the Board of Trade (October 1983 - September 1985), as Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and as party chairman (1985 - 1987). During the IRA Brighton hotel bombing he was injured and his wife, Margaret, was permanently disabled.

Wiki on Lord Norman Tebbit

His quote on Tony Blair is quite insightful though

I don't think he's a liar, just a fantasist. He says whatever he likes, and then he believes it - Lord Tebbit on Tony Blair 1st May 2005

[edit on 19/8/05 by subz]

Tks Subz. Well I see the man is a prominent citizen who has served his country with some distinction, but who seems to have a history of being outspoken and somewhat biased towards foreigners. I hope people don't take him seriously on his recent comments.

there is nothing racist about his conclusion that art, literature, science or technology did not have any to non advancement in the last couple of hundreds of years. one of the only nation in the middle east which has made some advancements is Israel but that is a jewish country and not muslim. that Iran might have a nuke and has nuclear powerplants is because of western knowledge given to them by muslims lifing in the western non muslim world.

can anyone give me some mayor science and technology discoveries made by a muslim nation in the middle east?

I have found nothing.

So its a conclusion based on facts why are we all so shocked of the truth why don't just see its true we are no racist saying it.

It sounds to me like he's criticizing Islam (a religion) not a race, so I fail to see how his statements could possibly be racist. There are Islamic people in all races, and not all Arabs are Muslim.

[edit on 8/20/2005 by djohnsto77]