Pro war man disses dead troops

deltaboy, it's un-American to smother the protests. It may be uncomfortable for some people, but protesting is the right of the people.

What you're suggesting is comparable to saying,

"You know, voting is such a hassle and there's traffic and waiting in lines... Let's just not do it. Let's just get rid of it."

Or, "Guns are such a problem in society today. I know the Constitution says we have the 'right' to own them, but let's just take them away from the people to make things easier. That way there'll be less conflicts."

I mean, come ON! How can you suggest we smother the rights given by the Constitution???

Just imagine if nobody bothered them. They're just sitting down there in Crawford having a peaceful protest, many yards away from anyone, singing songs and praying and such. It's ONLY when the pro-war people have come along and done something VIOLENT that there's been ANY report of trouble at all. Now you tell me who's causing the trouble again???

[edit on 17-8-2005 by Benevolent Heretic]

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While the crosses do in this case serve a political purpose they also represent people we would otherwise easily forget.

With the president so cocooned as he is by his political handlers i have no idea if he has really genuinely taken it to heart that real human beings are dying over there.

Every soldier is a human being,
and should never be shortchanged on that count.

Every Iraqi civilian is a human being,
and can not for both humane reasons as well as strategic thinking can not be discounted.

But there is no comparison to me between a row of small wooden crosses and using a Hundred million dollar aircraft carrier with a 500 foot long banner in a flight suit surrounded by military personel commanded to be there.
If the 'Mission was Acomplished' back then WTF are we still doing there?

I think Bush may have genuinely and extremely naively believed that was all there was to it. How wrong he was.
I think he has sort of ignored the reality in Iraq, because people tend to fall in lockstep behind a president during war.
Instead of sweating out how to make it work in Iraq and in short order,
He vacationed and vacationed and did other things and vacationed.

Frankly I am fed up.
I live here in America,
When people think who is responsible for this they will be looking at all of us.
When the terrorists seek revenge it will hit people who didn't want us to go to war as well as those who did.

By God if all Americans are going to shoulder all the prices of this war, lives, money, future terrorism, you supporters Damn well better make this work and right now Or a lot of people are going to start hitting the streets.

Youve had over 2 years,
Get busy and make it work,
Or get the Hell out,
And NOW.

It is re-assuring that someone who is pro-war still respects even the symbols of the lives of these dead soldiers.
I assume she was standing them back up and not carting them away?

Callousness is necessary to fight a war,
but you need sensitive intelligence to decide when and if it is the right thing to do. And you need that same calculating intelligence to know how to use forces and when they are being wasted for no good purpose.

I think the American people have been sheltered from this war in a way that is not healthy. To properly assess if how the fighting is going and if troops are being usefully directed you need some real sense of the tradgedy that all wars are.
And most important of all to assess whether a war has been or continues to be worth the fight you have to have a real sense of what is going on.

This war will be remembered for decades and probably centuries.
The enemies you ignore as you oblitherate them today are very often the enemy that stores its resentment and comes back at you when they have become stronger and perhaps you are not.
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i really dont care about the protesting, thats their given right by the U.S. of A. and has been for centuries wat i dont want to see it protests that disrupt the lives that do not want to get involved. think of it as a naked man running across the baseball field or football field in front of tens of thousands of people with children and he is protesting or trying to grab attention. thats wat i dont like. wats next? protests on highways and u pretty much got traffic that would stay like that until the protesters dont feel like protesting for the time being or that they have achieved to getting their demands.

btw, i remember sombody decided to give the anti protestors a place to protest that would not disrupt peoples lives as well as putting their lives on the line by endangering themselves near the road.

[edit on 17-8-2005 by deltaboy]

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Guess what deltaboy,
If you are an American you are involved whether you think you are or not. PERIOD.

The name 'America' is stamped all over this mess in Iraq.

Cindy Sheehan is causing a disruption?

George Bush and crew have managed to KILL 40,000 to 100,000 people.

I don't give an 'F' whether you or any one else likes it,

If all Americans have to pay for this with human lives, Billions of dollars and an increased threat of future terrorism,
You and any other American needs to start paying attention to what your nation is doing.

You may not think this war involves you?
If you are an American or even just live here this effects you.

You will pay the price.
In lost human lives.
With Hundreds of Billions of dollars lost in the deserts of Iraq.
For the 9 billion dollars embezzled by Iraqi criminal elements.
In strained and broken relations with other nations.
In a hatred for the disgusting way Arabs were treated at Abu Graib.
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Originally posted by slank
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Guess what deltaboy,
If you are an American you are involved whether you think you are or not. PERIOD.

guess wat slank, i am an American and i would like to make sure protestors dont be disrupting my life by screaming and yelling in my front yard buddy.

The name 'America' is stamped all over this mess in Iraq.

we pretty much have messes around the world. and somtimes we have to be the mopper.

Cindy Sheehan is causing a disruption?

talk to the citizens of Crawford, lets see wat they say to u.

George Bush and crew have managed to KILL 40,000 to 100,000 people.

i guess those car bombings and attacks are linked to Bush as well eh? think we killed all those people.

I don't give an 'F' whether you or any one else likes it,

i dont give a F if u think i "like" this war or not.

If all Americans have to pay for this with human lives, Billions of dollars and an increased threat of future terrorism,
You and any other American needs to start paying attention to what your nation is doing.

i have seen wat is goin on right now, if u wherever u living think the world is paradise and peaceful u pretty much living in a lala land. we are at war, and freedom aint free u know. we have pretty much paid lives and billions of dollars in the past wars. rebuilding countries and destroying those that threaten us and the world. never have u seen ani other countries who would treat a former enemy with just compassion.

You may not think this war involves you?
If you are an American or even just live here this effects you.

noooo really?

You will pay the price.
In lost human lives.
With Hundreds of Billions of dollars lost in the deserts of Iraq.
For the 9 billion dollars embezzled by Iraqi criminal elements.
In strained and broken relations with other nations.
In a hatred for the disgusting way Arabs were treated at Abu Graib.

awww i dint know u care so much. i appreciate that. i dont see aniwhere writtened by u about non-Muslims who were treated worse and murdered by those Islamic extremists. but then u probably dont care eh?

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Iraq was a snowball the Pro-war faction decided to push at the top of the mountain.

They therefore are responsible for all the cascading events that it unleashed.
That includes Nick Berg and others who needlessly died.

The reasons for going to war were lies and self-delusions.

It has been charged on the credit card of time,
and includes accounting for the law of unintended consequences.

Pro-war people broke it,
They own it.

But all of America has to pay for their clumbsiness.
Get the scissors and cut up the NeoCons Federal deficit credit cards.

Time for the responsible thinking & acting people of America to take over for the testosterone driven juveniles.
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i have one thing thing i would like to say to anti- war protesters.
be careful what you say to people who have fought ina war.
i just had someone come up to me in the street,
and knowing that im a soldier in the New Zealand Army he asked me How can you sleep at night and How can you live with yourself?
the thing is,
you will never find anybody more anti- war than someone who has been over fighting a war.
the only answer i had for this guy was that i cant sleep at night,
i still see their faces in the nightmares.
and the only reason i can live with myself is because i know that so many others Can sleep at night becuase of the things that keep me up sweating, scared of going to sleep because i know that as soon as i do,
the nightmares will start,
i will have to look on grieving mothers faces all over again just like it was happening right now.
please keep this in mind when talking to a soldier who has been through this kind of thing.

That sounds like some pretty severe PTSS, Wardr08e. Which conflict did you serve in? I cant think of any missions NZ has been a part of since Timor. Why would people walk up to you in the street and say that to you regarding Timor? And of all places, in NZ?

I don't have a problem with protesters, but don't they need a permit or something? If they want to protest the war, or bush, or anything at all, they can go to a public place and do it, but I really don't like people harassing others.

Also, I didn't mean to imply that our side is necessarily the "right" side. Thinking like that is dangerous. If you don't like the war and you don't like the soldiers, I would ask that you not harass anyone in a uniform as a common courtesy to another human being.

What I don't like are people who are for the war, but against he people who fight and die for what they believe in. Those are the hypocritical bastards that should be tied up and marched through town.

Actually Cargo there are approx. 18 different o-seas ops NZ is involved with at the moment.
me personally i was in East Timor, Solomon Islands, Bouganville,
Sinai and Afghanistan.
its only been since Afghan that iv been having these problems.
I honestly never thought i would care about the life or rights to life,
of someone who is trying to kill innocent people to make a political or religious point.
most actions we were involved in wernt anything special,
suicide bombers, lone gunmen firing from a window type of thing.
but then sometimes you come across some things that really blow you away.
for example somebody firing on us from inside his home.
me being the closest but out of line of fire i moved in to the side of the window tossed a grenade in and got my arse the hell Down!!!
we entered shortly after to clear the building, as you do,
only to finsd that the person who's life i had just taken was a 10 year old boy.
grown men i have no problem with.
they know what they are getting into when they pickup that AKS.
But a little boy?????????
he doesnt understand the implications of what he does.
they only tell the stories about the glorious martyrs who have been "victorious".
he didnt understand what happens when you actually do that kind of thing.
when you pick up a weapon like that or strap a bomb to yourself in a place like that there is no other way for things to end up.
somebody will die.
its just a matter of whether we can get you before you manage to kill innocent people or not.
in a situation like that there is no such thing as "victory"
or glory.
the thing is though.
most people, especially here in NZ,
dont understand why you would go to a place like that, to do that job,
or why i would go back in a heartbeat.
they dont get what the job is really about.
its not killing people.
its saving people.
we dont fight wars,
we try to get them finished and over and done with as soon as possible.
and yet they wont listen to the people that have been there, who kno what the world is truly like.

[edit on 22-8-2005 by Wardr08e]

[edit on 22-8-2005 by Wardr08e]

With respect, I do agree with kry, anyone who is pro war is quite sick.
War brings death, it might bring other things but the biggest part is death.

i think it depends on how you think about it.
some people deserve nothing more than quick and painless death.
i would like to think its as simple as pro/con, black/white.
but life just aint that simple im afraid.
my personal thoughts are that if somebody wants to kill themselves to make a point thats fine.
we each have to make our own choices.
but when somebody wants to take some other innocent people with them to make the same point then thats making another person choice for them.
nobody has the right to do that.
and as soon as that person actually attempts to do that then in my opinion the law of the land says that that person has given up any rights to the sanctity of life, by trying to take away somebody elses rights to life.
does that sound like it makes sense?
either way no person or government has the right to decide for another person or government.
its not that black and white and we all know it but wouldnt you love it if the world really was flat????

[edit on 22-8-2005 by Wardr08e]

i saw a movie the other day that mentioned this idea from africa.
the family of the murder victim gets to take the murderer out in a boat,
tie them up so that they cant move to save themselves and throws them overboard, then has the oportunity to either let him die, have their revenge and live with their grief for the rest of their lives,
or they can save him,accept that life isnt always fair and let go of the pain,
so that they can live their lives remembering the victim for all the good reasons instead of just grieving over the death.
sounds like one of the most logical things i have ever come across!!!

That is what I am talking about. The world just isn't black and white, no matter how much some people (on both sides) might want it to be.

Of course war is bad. War makes people die, and in general, people dying is bad. On the other hand, war also saves people, and for some strange reasonI never hear anyone saying how horrible the civil war was for freeing the slaves, or how we shouldn't have invaded Europe and freed the Jews (except for the people on Stormfront...).

To me, war is something that should be avoided if possible, but if it can help more people than it hurts, then I am all for it. War may not be something that we all enjoy, but it is a necessary part of human politics, since any group that doesn't defend itself and it's interests eventually dies, either from direct conquest or the advance of entropy as their rivals cut off their lifeblood.

If war is used to hurt people, it is bad.

If war is used to help people, it is good.

That is as black and white as I can see it.

At last somebody who agrees with me.
sometimes there is just such a thing as a nesessary evil.
lifes a Bi^%& aint it

Not to hijack a thread or anything, but...

Originally posted by deltaboy

Originally posted by slank

George Bush and crew have managed to KILL 40,000 to 100,000 people.

i guess those car bombings and attacks are linked to Bush as well eh? think we killed all those people.

Zero invasion = zero car bombings.

Argue your way out of that one.

Personally, I was pro-regime change and I was even pro-invasion as a way of forcing it. I was pro the whole war, for the "major combat operations" phase of it.

My objection to the war in Iraq is based solely on the fact that the small shrub sold us a bill of goods and then screwed the occupation up so badly that where there were no terrorists four years ago there is now the greatest concentration of active terrorists in the world.

It's the most perfect self-fulfilling prophecy I have ever seen.

All this "if we don't fight them in their homes, we'll be fighting them in ours" is the amplified echo of "If we don't stop the commies in Vietnam, we'll be stopping them at the Golden Gate Bridge". It was crap then and it's crap now.

However, just as Ike didn't want to go near it, Kennedy did and searched for a way out, Johnson went in full bore and Nixon widened the Vietnam war into Cambodia until eventually the US pulled with neither peace nor honour so that for practically the next decade it licked its wounds, if the US pulls out of Iraq and leaves it a failed state like Somalia, there will be no rescuing US prestige or authority. So w'ere stuck with the occupation of Iraq as a do or die mission and we're stuck with a moron in charge of it.

As for the protests...anyone tries to take away my right to protest and they lose their job, and that right is not enshrined in our constitution.

As for Cindy Sheehan, the hatchet job appears to be failing. The "white house spokespeople" keep pointing out that she's already met the prez and told him what she thinks, ie she's a nut who's had her say and should shut up and go home. The problem is that she's saying something people agree with. So far I've seen George tell the American people that he prayed with the family of one dead soldier and they got all teared up and it was good. He also said he knew how hard it was in Iraq because he reads the casualty lists everyday. Which is hard..and it's...it's hard.

Well if it's so damn hard why don't you look for alternatives? It's like the moronic Asian concept of "face". Can't admit I'm wrong, might lose face. Can't admit I haven't learned everything, I might lose face. Mustn't lose face, cannot admit fault, don't learn from mistakes...

I am still baffled at the number of people who voted for Bush in 2,000, thereby giving his brother the opportunity to make him president. How could you not tell then that he was a prize idiot?

If you don't like the protests then there's an easy solution...tell the shrub to stop visiting Crawford.

So, this bloke that ran over the crosses, maybe he'd had a bad day, maybe he had a fight with the wife before he went to work, he had a major crisis at work, the car wouldn't start, a co-worker spilt coffee on him, some idiot on a motorcycle cut him up in traffic and he got a parking ticket...seeing a buch of protestors from out of town who have been disrupting his life all week was the proverbial straw.

Or not.

Either way, politicised protest or not, the crosses represent the men, and women, who've died in Iraq in uniform. Don't compound what you see as a gross insult to their memory by adding another one.

During the Vietnam War a soldier standing post at the Cenotaph in Sydney, one of our major memorials to the ANZACS of World War One, men who saved France and Belgium from the Germans, was spat on by a woman protesting VN. She apparently couldn't see that she'd just dishonoured the memory of the men who gave us our national identity.

(When I was at school a bunch of stupid women calling themselves Women Against Rape in war used to stage a protest counter-march against the ANZAC Day parade. It's funny when the Rev. Fred Nile tries to protest against the gay mardi gras, it's not funny when women who've lived their lives in peace as good as accuse the men who saved Australia of committing war crimes)

COle, just wondering why you have Patton when it was the Screaming Eagles who saved Bastogne.

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
Personally, I was pro-regime change and I was even pro-invasion as a way of forcing it. I was pro the whole war, for the "major combat operations" phase of it.

My objection to the war in Iraq is based solely on the fact that the small shrub sold us a bill of goods and then screwed the occupation up so badly that where there were no terrorists four years ago there is now the greatest concentration of active terrorists in the world.

I share nearly that exact experience.

As regards the crosses, I heard of another man whose son's name was written on one of the crosses. He disagreed with the protest. And instead of running over all the crosses in a violent, illegal and extreme exploit, he simply went to the cross representing his son, and pulled it out of the ground. I have incredible respect for that man. He made his statement while respecting the protesters' rights. But of course, he didn't get on the news or get the glory that the 'pick-up attacker' did.

Everyone seems to have infused their own political bias on this thread, even the orginator. The crosses were not a memoral to the dead soldiers, they were simply a prop in a anti-war protest. Nothing more. There is nothing sacred about writing the names of dead soldiers on crosses and erecting them on the side of a public road. I do not agree with the idea of mowing down the crosses with a truck but I can see where the mans anger is coming from. If this protest was taking place in front of my house or on my property or even impeding my access to my property, then I would be angry too. The protestors have every right to protest but they do not have the right to distrub the locals. They do not have the right to camp out or erect anything on private property. The local citizens and neighbors have the right to peace and quite. Calmer heads have to step in and see this is getting out of hand. It is time for the protestors to pack up and go home before someone gets hurt. The man driving this truck did not dishonor those soldiers by mowing down the crosses. Those soldiers were dishonored by using them as a ploy to forward an agenda. I am a veteran and I see no dishonor in this mans actions. I do however see much dishonor in how this is being spinned into whatever agenda ATS members support. Leave the dead soldiers out of your bias and rants, names on a wooden cross erected on a public road do not a memorial make. Let them rest in peace, they deserve better.

I'm sure the guy who did that was doing it to hurt Ms Sheehan.......He probably didn't think it through, didn't realize he would come across as dishonoring the dead soldiers. He also probably felt like a real boob the next day, with his face plastered on the TV, and credited with destroying the roadside 'shrine'.

A good point to remember here......which ever side you support, if you act out your anger in haste.....it may well come back to bite you where you sit. Some calmer heads all round would be a good thing!!!!

the idea that somebody putting some bits of wood in the ground with Fallen Soldiers names on it and calling it a memorial is absurd.
The Unknown Warrior ko Ngati Tumatauenga is a memorial.
the Wall you yanks have is a memorial.
and i am so disgusted about what i just read about some Aussie women against rape in war or something.
Aussie you got my sympathy and that of all 2/1 RNZIR.
i see someone trying S*^T like that i think im gonna get arrested!!!!!!
get over yourselves