The Genesis Account...

Sometimes we as Christians have to look at the facts logically, scientifically, not just accept what somebody has told us. There is a group of Scientists who just happen to be Christians who are trying to do just that. They have a rather large, very interesting website, Reasons to Believe where they attempt to show how the Bible and science work together, proving each other.
For example, one of the articles they have is titled
Big Bang - The Bible Taught It first
They even have a Genesis One Creation Days - Timeline Chart
that shows creation time in the Billions of years.
I'd highly recommend everybody with even a faint interest in the topic to read some of the articles found there, and there are many.
Do I believe that God created the Universe and mankind in just six days?
Do I believe that this world and all Creation is only about 6000 years old? No. Six epochs, or eras-- yes, if they are very long. Anything else would deny His Majesty and Glory by denying the clues and Evidence he has given us. Personally, I am not willing to do that.

Creationism can be as much of a reality as evolution. Some would say that evolution could be a farse or a conspiracy. None of us will ever know the truth in our life times as the answers continue to elude us to this day and probably for a reason. We may find one day that both theories are actually wrong. But for the time being, there are those of us that strongly believe in creation and in the words in the bible. Perhaps that does not make sense to some and some may disagree but that is ok as we all have rights to our opinions. Healthy discussion includes all sides and all perspectives but does not require the changing of ones personal ideas and beliefs. I read all about evolution and science in general and keep it their in my mind even though some things I just do not believe. It does not mean that those of science are better or worse than me, we just have different thoughts and we all are on roads headed to one end and that is to try and understand who we are and why we are here.

rawiea

I dont know how much you read the bible, I took a good look at that chart. and it says that dinosaurs lived before man, and it also says that many other things lived before man. if that is true, than dead came before sin which is not true according to the bible.
that chart says that dinosaurs lived millions of years ago. and according to the evolution theory, they died before man even got here. the bible says that man brought death into the world, in other words, nothing died until adam sinned.
someone is wrong.

EC

Helen, in regards to Genesis 1:26 in your post, who is speaking here? Who is "Us" ? If the Bible is to be taken literally, and this is God speaking, and God is the Creator, why are there 2 ours and an us in that verse?

if you read John 1:1 and I John 5:7 it says that there are three. God is Jesus and Jesus is God and Jesus is also the holy spirit, and the holy spirit is also God. they are all one but also separate.

Jesus was in the beginning, in the spiritual form. he was with God and at the same time, was God. kind of a hard concept to grasp, but that is what he was talking about. he wasnt talking to the angels. we are not made in the image of angels. we are made in the image of God.

EC

Jesus nor the Holy Spirit ever proclaimed to be Creator. So, again, who is "Us" that is doing the creating in that verse? That's really all I'm looking at here. It doesn't make sense interpreted as it is. Since the Trinity is one and the same being, there would be no reason for God to speak to Himself.

Originally posted by Evolution Cruncher

Helen, in regards to Genesis 1:26 in your post, who is speaking here? Who is "Us" ? If the Bible is to be taken literally, and this is God speaking, and God is the Creator, why are there 2 ours and an us in that verse?

if you read John 1:1 and I John 5:7 it says that there are three. God is Jesus and Jesus is God and Jesus is also the holy spirit, and the holy spirit is also God. they are all one but also separate.

Jesus was in the beginning, in the spiritual form. he was with God and at the same time, was God. kind of a hard concept to grasp, but that is what he was talking about. he wasnt talking to the angels. we are not made in the image of angels. we are made in the image of God.

EC

Evolution Cruncher

As a child, I was taught that Man, created in God's image was designed to be Immortal. Had God permitted him to eat from the Tree of Life, he would have been. Mankind never had that chance, because Adam ate the Forbidden Fruit from the tree of Good and evil. He failed his Probation. Death became available to mankind at that point. Death had already been here for animal life forms. They were not designed to be Immortal, since they were not created in His image.
I see a difference of opinion here, but I stand by my beliefs.

[edit on 21-8-2005 by rawiea]

Originally posted by Evolution Cruncher

but the first account of genesis was written shortly after the creation. which was, according to the bible, 6,000 years ago.

Please provide the scriptural passages that support this.

Originally posted by Evolution Cruncher
there is not billions of years of history. there is no more than 6,000 years of history. the chinese language is no older than 6,000 years old.

If you reject all the dating mechanisms, then you have nothing to base this on. You do not know that the Chinese language is less than 6000 years old. It's pretty silly to think that spoken and written language just popped into existence 6000 years ago. Don't you suppose one would precede the other?

Originally posted by Evolution Cruncher
there are many legends of a great flood that covered the entire earth.

Including the legend of Gilgamesh, upon which the Bible legend is based.

Jesus nor the Holy Spirit ever proclaimed to be Creator. So, again, who is "Us" that is doing the creating in that verse? That's really all I'm looking at here. It doesn't make sense interpreted as it is. Since the Trinity is one and the same being, there would be no reason for God to speak to Himself.

Jesus Christ as the Son of God.......in human nature.....As man Jesus Christ is like one of us.....This to TEACH US about God the Father.....who is Himself ..


Jesus Christ as the SON of God....His HUMAN NATURE......man(Second Adam.who gives us life after death, who conquered death....since DEATH came from ADAM(FIRST MAN).....Nature changed along with man's transgression.....DEATH entered into the world ......
Trinity.........The Father(who does not SHOW Himself in the Old Testament)The WORD(LOGOS) WHO was and is and was part of the CREATION......and the Holy Spirit......the breath of God...who was and is....
God took flesh and became man because MAN is responsible for SIN(to miss the mark)Man caused NATURE to change......Therefore God became man to teach man to come again to their original state before the fall....

The power of death and corruption, according to Paul, is not negative, but on the contrary, positively active. "The sting of death is sin,"[34] which in turn reigns in death.[35] Not only man, but all creation has been yoked under its tyrannizing power [36] and is now awaiting redemption. Creation itself shall also be delivered from the slavery of corruption.[37] Along with the final destruction of all the enemies of God, death—the last and probably the greatest enemy—will be destroyed.[38] Then death will be swallowed up in victory.[39] For St. Paul, the destruction of death is parallel to the destruction of the devil and his forces. Salvation from the one is salvation from the other.[40]

Original Sin According to St. Paul

Man originally was not created to die.....grow old and become one with the ground....this only came AFTER THE FALL...

The first man was not deified at the time of his creation, but he was created for deification, for union with God. [3] By drawing ever closer to God in love, by seeking spiritual pleasure in God rather than physical pleasure through His senses, man was to become ever more holy and spiritual, ever more in the likeness of God, ever more transformed and deified by the Grace of God.
Since God is limitless and unfathomable, the path of union with God was never to end.
Man was created a little lower than the angels (Ps. 8:5, Heb. 2:7), but he eventually was to become higher than the angels, higher even than the highest ranks of the angels: "more honorable than the Cherubim and more glorious beyond compare than the Seraphim."

What Christ Accomplished on the Cross


Concerning what followed the Resurrection.

Until the Resurrection of the God-Man Christ, death was the second nature of man; the first was life,
the second death.
Man had become used to death as something natural.
But with the Resurrection of the Lord, all things changed: immortality became the second nature of man.
It has become something natural to man, whereas death is rendered unnatural.
Just as before the Resurrection of Christ it was natural for man to be mortal, so after His Resurrection it has become natural for man to be immortal.

"Condemned" to Be Immortal

IX
helen

Ok, as I said above, I have full understanding of the Trinity. All I'm asking is WHO is the "US" and "ours" referred to in the verse.

Hopefully someone can post some verses where it states this, as I'm not one to take someone's opinion as truth.

Thanks


Edited to add: The verse I'm asking about is Genesis 1:26

[edit on 22-8-2005 by Star of Curiosity]

Star of Curiosity///

Ok, as I said above, I have full understanding of the Trinity. All I'm asking is WHO is the "US" and "ours" referred to in the verse.

Hopefully someone can post some verses where it states this, as I'm not one to take someone's opinion as truth.
Thanks
Edited to add: The verse I'm asking about is Genesis 1:26

You said it......The US is the trinity.......
ours?
You mean ''our image''?

GOD IN TRINITY

What is God like?
He is Inscrutable in essence, but known to us through His attributes, according to the measure of the purity of our soul. Sacred Scripture attests that God is Spirit (John 4:24).
However, we also know that God is one in essence and triple in Persons." The Hypostases of God have personal attributes: the Father is not born, the Son is born, the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. Three Persons, yet one God, Trinity undivided.

This is a mystery not entirely comprehensible, but it does come clearer for us if we think about God's closeness to the world: "God is above us,
God is with us,
God is in us."
Above us is God the Father, the ever-flowing Source, the Foundation of every existence.
We are His children by grace....(important)
With us is God the Son,
Who has revealed Himself as Man in a most perfect image,(The Son of God)
performing miracles and teaching with His words. In us, by His power and grace, is God the Holy Spirit, Who fillest all things, Who is the Giver of Life, the Comforter.
The mystical, inner life of God concealed in the depths of Divinity has been revealed to the world in time "by the sending down of the Son of God from the Father into the world,
and by the activity of the wonderworking, life-giving and saving power of the Comforter, the Holy Spirit."

God the Son is also called the Word.(LOGOS)
The same Apostle begins his Gospel with the following: In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by Him; and without Him was not anything made that was made (John 1:1-3).
These verses are important not only because they shed light on the dogma of the oneness of essence and the equality of honor of God the Son with God the Father.
Understanding that the Word is the Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity is essential when we study the nature of the human soul.

THE NATURE OF THE HUMAN SOUL

Let us make man in our image (Gen. 1:26). God as Trinity adorned human nature with His image and likeness.

The soul has three particular powers: mind, thought (or word), and spirit.
Our mind, as the source, the beginning of both thought and spiritual feeling, is an image of the Father.
Our word (an unpronounced word is a thought) is an image of the Son,
and our spirit, the capacity for spiritual feeling, is an image of the Holy Spirit.
On the Soul and Union With God

Also much more info on Genesis and Early Man

hope that is the answer to what you are asking for.....

IX
helen


edit to fix ''bad request'' link.....whatever that means!

here

[edit on 8/22/2005 by helen670]
again

[edit on 8/22/2005 by helen670]

Originally posted by Star of Curiosity
Ok, as I said above, I have full understanding of the Trinity. All I'm asking is WHO is the "US" and "ours" referred to in the verse.

It was common (and still is) for royalty to refer to themselves in the plural. When the queen uses "we" to refer to herself, no-one takes that to mean she consists of multiple persons in one.

Genesis 1:1 In the Beginning, God Created the Heaven and the Earth.
John 1:1 In the Beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
I John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Another way to look at the trinity is:

1^3, One to the third power.

what most people try to do it make the trinity out to be 1+1+1=3
when its more like this: 1x1x1=1

if God is like 1^3, you still have three separate ones, but the product of all three equal 1.

its a hard concept but thats understandable.

As for mans sin effecting animals and causing death among all living things. some people are mislead when it comes to death.

Death for Man and Animals did come from adams sin, ill show you in scipture where it is explained.

Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

"even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression" these are the animals, they dont sin. they were never given laws to abide by.
adams sin did effect the creation, plants grew thorns and thistles according to Genesis 3:18

Romans 5:12 wherefore as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin.

I dont know of any other way to put it. Death was brought into this world by adams sin, not Eves sin. Adam was not deceived when he ate of the fruit. read I Timothy 2:14.

im not sure if included everything there was question about, but if I forgot something let me know.

EC

Evolution Cruncher
I tend to read verses near the ones given as proof. By the way, thank you for using Romans 5:14. It put me right where I needed to be.

"even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression" these are the animals, they dont sin. they were never given laws to abide by.

In the next several verses those who you said are animals, affected by Adam's Sin, are given the gift of Grace.
As far as I know, grace is unavailable to animals. The "many" mentioned MUST be human.

12: Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14: Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15: But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16: And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17: For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

As I said earlier," I see a difference of opinion here, but I stand by my beliefs."

And If I may also add....

"For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection from the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive." (I Cor. 15: 21-22)

After the Resurrection of Christ, everything becomes clear and it is with good reason that the Apostle cries out joyfully,
"O death, where is thy sting? O hell, where is thy victory?" (I Corinthians 15:55)
The Resurrection of Christ means and witnesses to one single truth, to this good and joyful news: "Death is swallowed up in victory!" (I Cor. 15:54) Hades or hell as the state of death, as the windowless domain of spiritual darkness where neither God nor man can be seen, has received in Christ's Resurrection a fatal blow.
It has been embittered with no hope of remedy because, in the words of St. John Chrysostom, by coming face to face with the Risen Lord it has been emptied and mocked, it has been bound with chains, ruined and, moreover, deadened. Truly the event of the Resurrection is the triumph of life, and the very death of death.

Since Adam brought DEATH into the world........The Son of God......Jesus Christ as the SECOND Adam DESTROYED DEATH.....it was MAN that changed nature, and The MAN-GOD Jesus Christ who destroyed it by taking upon Him Flesh(human nature)and suffering as man .....

I am the Resurrection and the Life; whoever believes in Me, even if he dies, yet shall he live. John 11:25

Although death of the body will occur.....death has not won...for Jesus Christ Resurrected.....

The risen Christ is therefore not alone: He is "the first fruits of the dead" (I Cor. 15:20, 23),
or "the firstborn of the dead" (Col. 1:18 and Revelation 1:5),
or the "first who should rise from the dead" (Acts 26:23),
and so the "firstborn of many brothers" (Romans 8:29)
who belong to "the general assembly and Church of the firstborn" (Hebrews 12:23).

IX
helen

Jesus was fould praying to God alot. Jesus was not talking to him self, or showing what others must do. Jesus was praying, talking with God. On the cross Jesus said. God why have you forsaken me. Father why do you turn your eyes away from me. Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus said nor man, nor Son of man knowing the timeing of christ, only the father knows. As in Jesus does not know only God knows. Showing more that ZGod is in heaven and knows the timing of christ. But Jesus on earth does not know his coming.

Yes, I agree with Evolution's "unofficial" definition of the Holy Trinity. One Being magnified to the power of 3/ One Being 3 expressions of that same Being.

This definition brought me to the question of Genesis 1:26 usage of the plural in referring to Self. The Bible stories didn't blur the Godly Expressions in discussing the appearance nor particular behaviors of the different Expressions. Each was presented as standing on its own, with its unique purpose. Using Sly's examples of Christ speaking to God in His final moments; I'm not being facetious here when I say that Christ did not say in His final moments "We, We, why are We forsaking Us?" In His final moments Christ clearly defined His role/sole expression within the Trinity.

That this was a usage (Genesis 1:26) similar to modern day royalty is possible (anything is possible within God's Universe), for myself, I find it improbable as it doesn't fit with the "speaking" style of the rest of the Bible where the Trinity is concerned.

I don't believe God is fallible, but human beings ARE. I tend to feel that possibly Genesis 1:26 is an incomplete thought by the author of that book, or misinterpretation by the translators.

Evolution Cruncher- Please do not take my critical analysis of your post as an insult, but rather as an encouragement to further your education.

God is not "everywhere and nowhere". If he exists, he is omnipresent, which is simply everywhere at all times.

I wouldn't say that your two pound brain is your stumbling block as much as the lack of education is.

Universe - from Latin niversum - whole & nus - one = ONE WHOLE

After reading the first couple of paragraphs of your post, I decided that you most likely have very little to add either to anyone's understand of the Bible or the origin of the universe, so after skimming it and confirming that to myself, I won't bother finishing reading the original post.

I would, however, like to take the oportunity to discourage you from taking literally what is in actuality a subjective literary work. I consider the Bible to be a collection of poetic essays, inspiration materials, geneological account, collection of religious laws, etc..., but by no means is there any eyewitness account of anything in it. Even the Gospels weren't written until many years after Christ died.

You really shouldn't try to take literally the writings of people who lived in the range of ~4000 to ~1600 years ago, who had absolutely no understanding of the concept of energy and more than likely had a certain agenda they were trying to further in creating the Old Testament.

If you want to read the Bible, do yourself a favor and ignore everything you see until you get to a part that starts, "Jesus said, " and continue reading until Jesus stops talking. When you run out of things that Jesus said, close the book and consider yourself done. You and everyone else will be better off for it.

I take it your anit-bible.
well according to the bible, Jesus is God, there are many places where it states that Jesus and God are one. they are the same person. Jesus was in the Garden praying to himself but he was praying to himself because he was in a physical body. physical body is often led to temptation and the flesh always wants to do something other than what the spirit wants to do.
there is a saying, I cant remember if it was from the bible or if it was from someone who said it in the past. but the quote is : "the spirit is willing but the flesh it weak". Jesus flesh wanted to call the angels down to save him but his spirit did not. that is why he prayed to the father for his will to be done and not the will of his own (his flesh). of course you wouldnt want to die and get whipped and all that suffering, but he knew that if he did the will of his father (which was in heaven) he would be doing what is right. basically he was getting ready to go through everything.

Genesis was written by eye-witness accounts it even says so at the end of each teledoth. and you dont know when the bible was written. God inspired it and he preserved it so that we can learn the truth and live by it.

EC

Originally posted by Evolution Cruncher
Genesis was written by eye-witness accounts

:shk: :bnghd:

so little time, so much insanity

When I wrote the quote before this one. I was not saying that Jesus is God. In fact the quote's says Jesus is God's Son. Jesus's say (father why have you forsaken me.0 God was in heaven forsaking Jesus. well Jesus was on the cross. My point in Jesus praying. Is to say he was talking with God, And not him self.