To those of you that dont support the prez and his war on terror/IRAQ

I support the troops and the Governemnt of US, UK, AUS and the rest of the Coalition.

For all those who agree with me - I reakon we should all buy these shirts:

www.tshirthell.com...

Originally posted by ferretman

The actions of a few at Abu Graib, should not reflect on the 360,000 other troops involved.

You're absolutely right. And likewise, the actions of a few extremist Muslims should not reflect on the rest of the Muslim world.

GET OVER IT! Come up with some real issues instead of bringing up actions which happened over 3 years ago.

Uh...the same could be said about 9/11. It's unfair to want to quieten one side of the argument whilst we're still wailing loudly about the other side.

To sweep either event under the carpet would be doing a great disservice to both the troops, and the victims, in this entire situation.

I was against the war and my country (UK) sending in troops. Not because I'm a pacifist, I believe there are just wars, but because I believe it will cause more problems than it solves in the long run.

I think many on the Left (of which I would count myself) forget that Saddam was a facist and that the less facist leaders in the world the better. They get so lost in hating the odious Bush that they somehow end up supporting a facist regime. If a truly international force had been got together to "free" Iraq I would have supported it.

I see Iraq either decending into more violence or ending up with hardly any democracy and a "strong man" in charge again (perhaps someone with a nice moustache, military fatigues and a paunch.....). Except the strong man this time will be religious nut who will force women out of their jobs, ban music and outlaw all fun (apparently).

However I sincerley hope I'm wrong and that Iraq can be transformed into the Sweden of the middle east (a bit sandier perhaps), and become world famous for it's well designed, but good value, furniture. Instead of being renowned for suicidal maniacs blowing themselves up.

Although I didn't want the war, I do support the troops now they are there and believe they should stay. If they pulled out now we would definitely end up with a military dictator or terrible violence, again many on the Left often seem to completely discount this argument.

There's a big difference between the slaughter of 3,000 innocent people and some poor taste photos and actions.

To think otherwise is naive.

Speaking of supporting the troops there is an interesting article in Salon about war scarred veterans returning from Iraq - some suffering from extreme post-traumatic stress. It brings to mind thousands of Vietnam vets coming home and people spitting at them in the streets.

Where was the government when they needed vet hospitals and psychiatric treatment? Ever ask yourself who lives under your viadact and why he is wearing an army shirt and sleeping in a cardboard box?

I am completely 100% against this trumped up war and am sorry that troops have to lose their lives over the lies and vicious greed of other people. I won't be spitting at soldiers and doubt anyone here feels that way. But please don't ask me to support a phony war I don't believe in.


www.salon.com...

Originally posted by ferretman
There's a big difference between the slaughter of 3,000 innocent people and some poor taste photos and actions.

To think otherwise is naive.

You missed the point.

Of course there's a difference - nobody is stating otherwise.

The point is, to many around the world (and no, I'm not one of them - I'm just trying to point out a different viewpoint), it's high time the US stopped making 9/11 the justification for various actions.

Just as you said it was time we put the Abu Ghraib abuse to bed. The perspective differs according to which side of the coin you're on.

That's all.

I do support the troops that are over in the Middle East ( and Africa, Soth America,SE Asia,etc...) as should each American. This is our country, and I really wonder what half of you will bitch about and blame it on when there is a democrat in office and we are still in Iraq, and WMD goes off in downtown Philly.

I do not support this war.

I support the military personel involved in the actions.

I do not support the administration responsible for the current situation.(lets not forget that we put Saddam and the Taliban in power and supported them for years.)

I do not support this countries current energy plan which is the reason why this war is about oil.

I do not support the abuse of individuals rights at the detention centers.

I do not support those who attempt to justify the current course of actions with anything other than admitting that a diet of bad video games and political rhetoric is turning the population into believing what we are doing is right.

I do not support the Islamic extremists who perpetuate the evil rehetoric that turns decent humans into human bombs.

I DO support anyone who will stand with me and denounce both sides in this war against terrorism.

Originally posted by Expositor
I DO support anyone who will stand with me and denounce both sides in this war against terrorism.

Woo-Hoo! Well-said!

I stand with you and denounce all responsible parties in the cause and continuation of this war!

Originally posted by esdad71
I do support the troops that are over in the Middle East ( and Africa, Soth America,SE Asia,etc...) as should each American. This is our country, and I really wonder what half of you will bitch about and blame it on when there is a democrat in office and we are still in Iraq, and WMD goes off in downtown Philly.

Just because I feel it necessary to respond to this in particular, I think its a pretty
uninformed and ignorant statement to make considering anyone next in office
whether it be democrat OR republican couldnt possibly affect a mass pullout
without serious negative ramifications at the moment. The "bitching" is still justified
simply because they WERE put in that scenario, not on the "hows" of a pullout.
If serious talks were taking place with respect to a pullout then, of course,
that complaining would come to an end.
As far as Philadelphia is concerned, the barometer of the world dictates that
this could happen ALSO irrespective of who's in office now or in the future however,
I think the likelihood of the occurence (to say that it could even happen), is slightly
more aggravated currently with the present administration than if there were a more
moderate administration.
Now, if I were Digitalgrl and were reading the contents of this thread i would be asking
myself "how is any of this at all relevant to what i asked?!". The answer would be
"not at all" so, in an effort to try and KEEP these posts on-topic DigitalGrl,
I support our troops 100%...they have been put in a position whereby they
absolutely have no choice but to be doing what they are doing. I , as well, have
fought for this country and did my time, and understand completely what they may be feeling.
Vietnam should never have happened either, but it did, and anyone who didnt support
the young men and women THEN have no heart. Just like those that dont now, dont.
However, as for the current administration they are feeding our men and women over there
some serious propaganda. Of course they see the justification for what theyre doing.
Yet, they only have a chance to see it from one side..how *I* see it is like this:
At what point did the Iraqi's come to the US and say "you need to intervene!"?
I dont recall that...lacking this, my assumtion has to be that we took this stance:
"Damnit, you'll have democracy if we have to force it on you!" .. I think this may be
the center of the conflicting sides globally because it doesnt make a whole lot of sense.
In his own right, Saddam Hussein while tyrannical and a piece of trash,
seemed to be a mediator of the middle east..you loved him or hated him but both sides
feared him. Fear, like anything else, in moderation, can be a good thing.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by Expositor
I DO support anyone who will stand with me and denounce both sides in this war against terrorism.

Woo-Hoo! Well-said!

I stand with you and denounce all responsible parties in the cause and continuation of this war!

As do I! I stand with both of you on that one!

If blindly following orders from "above" is a prerequisite for courage, strength and patriotism then the U.S has come no further than Nazi Germany. They were also "following orders".
If American soldiers are unable to use their brains and see that they were setup and being treated like meat for the grinder then thats their problem and they deserve what they get.

You get no accolades from me for "doing what you're told"....ITS YOUR LIFE!! The leaders don't die...the leaders aren't shooting people...they never have. You're the ones that have the blood on your hands...BECAUSE YOU CHOOSE TOO!.
Hear me? BECAUSE YOU CHOOSE TOO!

Choose something else...

Think for yourselves slaves.



There is no friend anywhere - Lao Tse

Originally posted by Voice_of Doom
If blindly following orders from "above" is a prerequisite for courage, strength and patriotism then the U.S has come no further than Nazi Germany. They were also "following orders".
If American soldiers are unable to use their brains and see that they were setup and being treated like meat for the grinder then thats their problem and they deserve what they get.

You get no accolades from me for "doing what you're told"....ITS YOUR LIFE!! The leaders don't die...the leaders aren't shooting people...they never have. You're the ones that have the blood on your hands...BECAUSE YOU CHOOSE TOO!.
Hear me? BECAUSE YOU CHOOSE TOO!

Choose something else...

Think for yourselves slaves.



There is no friend anywhere - Lao Tse

The only problem with this mindset, Voice_Of_Doom, is that, yes, they have the RIGHT to choose
what to and/or not to do, but they in a way, have been "molded" to only think and react
one way...in a sense, youre right that we have come no further than Nazi Germany
in that they are only doing what they are told. But it goes beyond that..not just being told WHAT
to do, but also being informed of ONLY what the administration deems positive to its cause.
Now, given that, and human natures unwavering instinct to fight when it feels threatened,
dont you think that if the rhetoric from the Military High Brass is such that the soldiers
have a reason to feel threatened by anyone else at ALL, that their first initial
reaction would be to lash out...lash out first at the perceived threat, then assess what the cleanup is?
This is the methodology...this is also basic human instinct.

What kind of fantasy land do some of you live in? This isn't the movies. You think war is only fought for the right reasons, or your own moral thoughts of right from wrong?

Iraq is a strategic interest since they are an OPEC nation. OPEC is a an Islamic cartel that will continue, as they have done for the last 30 years, to screw with our economy. Now that we have the contracts for Iraq, the Sauds, and Venezuela are now hedged for the future. America and the UK have been trying to get Iraqi oil fields since the 30's. This is nothing new.

I don't agree with trading soldiers lives for oil, but we are also fighting a Jihad war, and President Bush has made a committment to the American people to not fight that war on American soil if possible.

Sometimes wars will be fought for commodities, or to give us an advantage against ao organization, or country intent on damaging American finances abroad. Ask the Japanese they'll tell you as much.

Strategy suggests rein in the Sauds oil and maybe they will start getting serious about cracking down on those who wage Jihad from Mecca. Either way it allows the American economy to be loosed from the OPEC oil noose around our throats.

Originally posted by vincere7
What kind of fantasy land do some of you live in? This isn't the movies. You think war is only fought for the right reasons, or your own moral thoughts of right from wrong?

Iraq is a strategic interest since they are an OPEC nation. OPEC is a an Islamic cartel that will continue, as they have done for the last 30 years, to screw with our economy. Now that we have the contracts for Iraq, the Sauds, and Venezuela are now hedged for the future. America and the UK have been trying to get Iraqi oil fields since the 30's. This is nothing new.

I don't agree with trading soldiers lives for oil, but we are also fighting a Jihad war, and President Bush has made a committment to the American people to not fight that war on American soil if possible.

Sometimes wars will be fought for commodities, or to give us an advantage against ao organization, or country intent on damaging American finances abroad. Ask the Japanese they'll tell you as much.

Strategy suggests rein in the Sauds oil and maybe they will start getting serious about cracking down on those who wage Jihad from Mecca. Either way it allows the American economy to be loosed from the OPEC oil noose around our throats.

Ummm....im not sure whom you're replying to as it seems most posting here DO believe this is a
War for Oil...im just curious as to who is fantasizing? I know certainly I am not

Originally posted by vincere7
You think war is only fought for the right reasons, or your own moral thoughts of right from wrong?

No. Obviously, war is fought for all kinds of reasons. And I approve of some and not others. No fantasy here. There's no requirement to apporve of all war. I disapprove of this war.

America and the UK have been trying to get Iraqi oil fields since the 30's. This is nothing new.

I don't think anyone is saying it's a new trend. We know this. Although the pres has a hard time coming to terms with it apparently.

Sometimes wars will be fought for commodities, or to give us an advantage against ao organization, or country intent on damaging American finances abroad. Ask the Japanese they'll tell you as much.

Thank you for the 4th grade world sociology lesson. As Jon Stewart said last night (paraphrased). God obviously hates us! He put all our oil under the desert on the other side of the world!

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by Expositor
I DO support anyone who will stand with me and denounce both sides in this war against terrorism.

Woo-Hoo! Well-said!

I stand with you and denounce all responsible parties in the cause and continuation of this war!

Thats all fine and dandy.....until someone with a car bomb drives into your neighborhood and kills all your friends and family. What are ya gonna do then? Stand on the side of your blown-up road with a sign that reads "Stop the Violence"? Where will your precious ideals be then, as the fire department hoses away the blood of the victims?

The world is full of those who think, and those who do. And unfortunately, you will never be able to "think" fanaticism or violence out of your life. The introduction of violence into a persons life has a funny way of dramatically changing the way that persons thinks and acts. Just ask anybody whose ever been mugged, or a victim of a violent crime. There is the fantasy world, where you can be (insert Homer voice here) The Magical Man! From Happy-Land, living in a gumdrop house on Lollipop Lane!

And then there is reality.

Originally posted by DigitalGrl
i think that its been assumed by alot of people, not just here but in the outside world that the people that dont support the current wars that america/britan etc..is undergoing that they inturn dont support our troops.

That is natural, don't you think? the executors of the war plans are the US troops.

While i may disagree with people that agree with the micheal moore etc...i certianly dont hate them, and would really like to know how they feel about the men and women you go out their and fight for their country.

My feelings are that these people are poorly educated and therefore poor in judgement capability...so they fell for the propaganda of the US government.

Some of them are clever enough not to have fallen for the propaganda, but they have mouths to feed and can't find a job anywhere else.

again, the assumption, in the media and everywhere else has been if you dont agree with the war then you dont support the troops and are unpatriotic....

Patriotism is not blindly following what the president says. If the president tomorrow says that USA should invade China (let's say he's gone mad!), should the rest of you follow him? it would be clearly unpatriotic.

By the way, the troops in Iraq do not fight for their country, but for their country's interests. One fights for his country when he/she defends his/her country.

And don't tell me that US troops defend the American way of life. That's bull#, and you know it. There are many many other reasons why there is this 'war'...and there are lots of other countries that the American way of life needs to be defended in, but there is no action in them, simply because there are no American interests.

And something else: there is no 'war on terror'. It is American interests VS Islamic interests. There is terror from both sides.

The war is about more than oil. Most states-countries that are not in the high tech world will always be looked on as a 3 world country. We needed, the world needs to have a stable middle east. He was never going to let the Iraq people be free. In order to have a"stable world" they need to be connected to the rest of the world. They dont need to worrying about if and when he would kill them.

What about the mass graves, the gas he used on his own country men. How long could the world let this go on. Like it or not we are the only superpower left. Nobody else was will to step up to the plate.

The world need to move to a "global economy". This means there also has to be a policeman to enforce the rules. I don't see the UN a great job at this.

Originally posted by Pyros

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by Expositor
I DO support anyone who will stand with me and denounce both sides in this war against terrorism.

Woo-Hoo! Well-said!

I stand with you and denounce all responsible parties in the cause and continuation of this war!

Thats all fine and dandy.....until someone with a car bomb drives into your neighborhood and kills all your friends and family. What are ya gonna do then? Stand on the side of your blown-up road with a sign that reads "Stop the Violence"? Where will your precious ideals be then, as the fire department hoses away the blood of the victims?

The world is full of those who think, and those who do. And unfortunately, you will never be able to "think" fanaticism or violence out of your life. The introduction of violence into a persons life has a funny way of dramatically changing the way that persons thinks and acts. Just ask anybody whose ever been mugged, or a victim of a violent crime. There is the fantasy world, where you can be (insert Homer voice here) The Magical Man! From Happy-Land, living in a gumdrop house on Lollipop Lane!

And then there is reality.

I have been all of those, shot in combat, mugged, knifed, and watched my childhood friend
get gunned down on the streets of brooklyn...I stand against our current policy of this BS
war in iraq, against our so called War on Terror... oh im sorry now War on Extremism,
and yes this IS a war for US interests...we are NOT fighting for our country..no one has invaded us..
we are fighting for our interests...this I dont support...and given that I've lived through most
of the scenarios youve posed and still feel this way I would have to say that your words hold
little merit.