Should The UK Use The Death Penalty?

sminkeypinkey, which again is why I pointed out earlier:

Originally posted by Odium
I honestly believe in the event of people who willingly murder people [more than 1] or a serial rapist/pedophile then the death penalty is the better option.

I am not saying this goes across to every single person who is convicted of rape, I have seen cases where people who are not guilty are sent to prison due to the fact the Lawyer can play on the Jury. However I see no purpose in keeping someone alive who has done this more than once, especailly if they do it again after being released - which does happen.

[The 5 years remake was towards 'serious arrestable offences'.]

Treason, murder, manslaughter, rape, kidnapping, incest or intercourse with a girl under 13, buggery with a boy under 16, indecent assault constituting gross indecency, causing an explosion likely to endanger life or property, certain offences under the Firearms Act 1968, causing death by dangerous driving, hostage taking, torture and many drug-related offences, ship hijacking and Channel Tunnel train hijacking, taking indecent photographs of children, publication of obscene matter.

Not all of these but many of them result in at least 5 years being given. [Lowest] and up to twenty-five years [Highest]. However, in rape cases it is becoming more and more common to be nearer the lower end of it and allowing the person to go back out into society. Which in itself isn't a bad thing, but in the case of repeat offenders it can be and then you have to look at where the money should be spent. To me I would rather it goes back into the NHS or Education System.

Originally posted by infinite
Sorry, but i feel you have to bring basic human rights issues into view here. Under the UN delecarlations of Human Rights, everyone is intitled to the same thing. EU law aswell states that, thats why this country signed off the Dealth Penalty. If the UK fights and screams about human rights aboard, it cannot break human rights laws at home.

But how many times have we already broken these laws? Also laws are socially constructed, if society changed and held the view the Death Penalty was acceptable you would notice a shift in the laws.

However, let us look at the The Human Rights Act of 1998.
Article 3 of the First Protocol: Right to Free Elections
The High Contracting Parties undertake to hold free elections at reasonable intervals by secret ballot, under conditions which will ensure the free expression of the opinion of the people in the choice of the legislature.

Now let us look at a peice of European Law, Dimitrakopoulos-Leinen Report, article 6 which states: "parties that do not respect human rights and democratic principles as set out in the Treaty of Rome shall be the subject of suspension proceedings in the European Court of Justice."

Now can you spot the problem with these two pieces of law?

If I decide I do not wish to uphold 'Democratic Principles' and attempt to get a party elected in which would remove democracy, I am not allowed to have that Political Party under E.U. Policy. However I am under British. I can go on and on all day of how the E.U. law, U.N. law and British Law have massive amounts of problems with one another but we all know they do already.

Hey Smirky, what sort of charity would willingly give Xboxs and/or portable tvs away? Is there a charity that "supports" the murderers, the paedophiles, and the rapists with portable tvs, and xboxs? Thought not. No charity in their right mind would willingly help them out. I agree that they suffer from a mental illness, but nothing can help them. You can't rehablitate psychopaths. It's nigh on impossible, since "They" believe what they did was right. They are the worst of vermin. Caring for nothing but themselves, they are the supreme egoists. No point in rehablitation.

Originally posted by Odium
I see no purpose in keeping someone alive who has done this more than once, especailly if they do it again after being released - which does happen.

- Well I guess we will never agree on this.
(But that's perfectly ok it's what this place is all about )

I believe it is a mark of civillisation that our (UK/European/EU) society refuses to kill and lower ourself to the level of the murderer.

I also find the populist arguement shallow, UK opinion has repeatedly swung one way and then the other on this issue and I am glad it is not something left to the prevailing popular mood.
Populist political justice is something we can well do without IMO.

in the case of repeat offenders it can be and then you have to look at where the money should be spent. To me I would rather it goes back into the NHS or Education System.

- I think someone has already pointed out that the idea of saving money about this is a myth.
The mandatory appeals to attempt to prevent miscarriages of justice see to that.

In any event I quite like the idea that our judicial system doesn't make life or death decisions on the basis of mere cost.

Originally posted by MacDonagh
Hey Smirky, what sort of charity would willingly give Xboxs and/or portable tvs away?

- There are several prisoners charities in the UK. They raise money and act to press our MPs to improve the conditions in our prisons and review cases of dispute etc.
I have no doubt similar exists across the world in many countries.

Is there a charity that "supports" the murderers, the paedophiles, and the rapists with portable tvs, and xboxs? Thought not.

- Well generally the idea is that they support inmates, whatever the conviction. Bit like clergy, speaking up for those no-one else will and all that.

A cheap tv (whether shared or not) or a cheap game system is hardly luxury.

No charity in their right mind would willingly help them out.

- I really think you should investigate the matter before making such sweeping statements.

I agree that they suffer from a mental illness, but nothing can help them. You can't rehabilitate psychopaths. It's nigh on impossible, since "They" believe what they did was right.

- They may indeed be beyond 'help' but here in the UK we do not execute and nor do we treat inhumanely or cruelly.

They are the worst of vermin.

- I think most people gladly left ideas of human 'vermin' back in the 1930's & 40's.
Thanks but no thanks we don't need such concepts and ideas and can well do without them.

Caring for nothing but themselves, they are the supreme egoists. No point in rehabilitation.

- I agree 'rehabilitation' is sometimes impossible.....and what?
We choose not to execute.

You're entitled to your view, of course, but you do know many simply and completely disagree with you?


[edit on 18-11-2005 by sminkeypinkey]

Considering they are criminals, they deserve to live in bad conditions. They should introduced forced labour and castrate rapists.

You are just an apologist. Thats it. Perhaps I shouldn't make such "sweeping claims" before saying that these charities don't exist, but my point remains valid. There is no point of rehablitation of a psychopath. And to waste money on keeping them comfortable is beyond me. I think your just an apologist, apologising for their crimes, giving them short sentences, flashing them gumdrop smiles, freely handing out Xboxs from your charadee van.



[edit on 19/11/05 by JAK]

Originally posted by MacDonagh
You are just an apologist.

- .....so you'll be able to point to some 'apology' then?

Thought not.

Perhaps I shouldn't make such "sweeping claims" before saying that these charities don't exist,

- No, you shouldn't.
You were completely wrong.

but my point remains valid.

- Well it's as "valid" as any personal opinion and a point of view.
It's hardly a 'fact'.

There is no point of rehablitation of a psychopath.

- Where did I claim every case was capable of rehailitation?

And to waste money on keeping them comfortable is beyond me.

- Good for you.

So you'd kill them and not in self defence.

You'd be a killer too, you just use different reasons to do it.

I think your just an apologist, apologising for their crimes,

- Well in that case I'd love you to quote some examples of this "apologising" then.

But you can't, can you?

giving them short sentences, flashing them gumdrop smiles, freely handing out Xboxs from your charadee van.

- ......so you think I spoke about "short sentences" where, exactly?

In fact elsewhere I have said a life sentence (just as I have implied by comments about the long term loss of liberty here) is hardly an easy life or 'no punishment'.

(.....and just when did an old £100 game console become the height of luxury?)

EDITED insult.

- Hmmm, all that's left are the childish insults, hmmm?

Figures.

[edit on 19-11-2005 by sminkeypinkey]

[edit on 20-11-2005 by asala]

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
(.....and just when did an old £100 game console become the height of luxury?)

To be honest, I am lucky to pay for the internet each month, let alone having £100 to spend on anything which I do not need mate. In fact, majority of the people I knew and grew up with couldn't and can't afford anything like an X-box without getting one off of the back of a lorry.

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
Those that do commit those kind of acts are in any event clearly severely mentally ill so what sort of supposedly 'civillised' society executes those clearly mentally incompetent?

Isn't that an apology? OH YEAH, THEY WERE MENTALLY INCOMPETENT AT THE TIME!. It's not their fault they rape/murder/molest. They had a bad childhood, they didn't have a good upbringing, Paul MacCarthy's band Wings broke up, and then he had temporary psychosis. I tell you solemnly, many people have had horrible childhoods, people have been abused when they were younger, yet they don't become the sum of their childhood. I agree that those who are mentally incompetent, e.g. retards, skizos. should get help, but not psychos. I know that someone who rapes/murders/molests is calculated. Rapists who put a tab in a girl's drink isn't gonna ask for a burger is he? They are not mentally incompetent. Quite the opposite, psychos are usually quite smart individuals. They believe what they did was right and justified. A way to get back at society that "failed" them. Hence you will never get remorse from a serial rapist/killer/molester. They see those around them, not as human beings, but less so. Objects more like. So what does that make them? Does that not make them sub-human, hence no great loss to the human race? I would have no qualms about shooting a rapist in the face. Especially if they raped/murdered/molested a friend or a family member of mine. Oh, but you couldn't do that could ya? Far too high and mighty for a mere mortal like me, your supreme morals comes first.

Oh, and the sub-human thing isn't a Hitler reference, whatever you may think Smirky. Surely since they consider us mere objects for them to play with, not even sub-human, we should be justified in capital punishment should we not? Truddling them along to prison and given them a "battered" xbox with a couple of games is merely brushing the problem under the carpet. Ignoring the psychopath problem is a bad idea.

Also, very cute quoting my thing. It's almost enough to make me cry.

Originally posted by MacDonagh
Isn't that an apology?

- No, it isn't actually.

It is merely a comment and explanation about why they have behaved in the manner they may have done but it in no way excuses or "apologises" for that behaviour.

OH YEAH, THEY WERE MENTALLY INCOMPETENT AT THE TIME!. It's not their fault they rape/murder/molest. They had a bad childhood, they didn't have a good upbringing, Paul MacCarthy's band Wings broke up, and then he had temporary psychosis.

- Does that "" indicate you find something funny about this subject or that you find criminal psychotic behaviour to be something funny?

Just because a mental illness may be the root and explanation of someones behaviour that in no way excuses that behaviour or means that I have ever said the person should 'get off' from the legal consequences of their actions.

In reality it may well result in a person being detained for an indefinite time in a prison hospital for the criminally insane with little or no prospect of release, ever.

I tell you solemnly, many people have had horrible childhoods, people have been abused when they were younger, yet they don't become the sum of their childhood.

- Well quite.
Thankfully this is very much the behaviour of the very small minority.

I agree that those who are mentally incompetent, e.g. retards, skizos. should get help, but not psychos.

- You are entitled to your opinion.

Like I said before some people cannot be helped (in which case they will/should be detained indefinitely) but I think we should always be willing to try and help.
It is a sign of our humanity at work.

I know that someone who rapes/murders/molests is calculated. Rapists who put a tab in a girl's drink isn't gonna ask for a burger is he? They are not mentally incompetent.

- I suspect, like me, you are no expert criminal psychiatrist but I do know the illness in the case of rape is to do with exerting power and domination over the victim, it is almost never about sex.

Despite being able to 'function' and carry out the acts leading up to the attack "the incompetence" is all about a twisted view of other people and a feeling that it is acceptable to 'force' them to another's' will.

psychos are usually quite smart individuals. They believe what they did was right and justified.

- .....and what?
That does not mean they not mentally ill.

I would have no qualms about shooting a rapist in the face.

- Is that meant to be impressive.
What on earth are you on about?

Especially if they raped/murdered/molested a friend or a family member of mine. Oh, but you couldn't do that could ya? Far too high and mighty for a mere mortal like me, your supreme morals comes first.

- I do not understand where you get these ridiculous ideas from.
You know nothing about me.

Where did I ever say a person should not act in self defence?

Surely since they consider us mere objects for them to play with, not even sub-human, we should be justified in capital punishment should we not?

- Not if you believe capital punishment is never the right thing to do, no, we shouldn't.

Truddling them along to prison and given them a "battered" xbox with a couple of games is merely brushing the problem under the carpet.

- How does that work?
They are already convicted and in prison at that stage, correct?

'They' are not all the same.
Some will appear 'normal' (but be far from it) and some so mentally incapable that they will never just sit and watch TV or play a game etc.

Ignoring the psychopath problem is a bad idea.

- .....er, where did anyone here talk about "ignoring the psychopath problem"?

Perhaps you should just try and stick to what people are actually saying in future instead of what you imagine or want people to have said, hmmm?

Also, very cute quoting my thing.

- It's just a handy way of addressing your own comments point by point.

It's almost enough to make me cry.

- Er, what are you talking about?

.....and yes, when all you can manage are some lame personal insults that is indeed childish in the extreme.

[edit on 19-11-2005 by sminkeypinkey]

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey

Originally posted by MacDonagh
Isn't that an apology?

- No, it isn't actually.

It is merely a comment and explanation about why they have behaved in the manner they may have done but it in no way excuses or "apologises" for that behaviour.

OH YEAH, THEY WERE MENTALLY INCOMPETENT AT THE TIME!. It's not their fault they rape/murder/molest. They had a bad childhood, they didn't have a good upbringing, Paul MacCarthy's band Wings broke up, and then he had temporary psychosis.

- Does that "

" indicate you find something funny about this subject or that you find criminal psychotic behaviour to be something funny?

Just because a mental illness may be the root and explanation of someones behaviour that in no way excuses that behaviour or means that I have ever said the person should 'get off' from the legal consequences of their actions.

In reality it may well result in a person being detained for an indefinite time in a prison hospital for the criminally insane with little or no prospect of release, ever.

I tell you solemnly, many people have had horrible childhoods, people have been abused when they were younger, yet they don't become the sum of their childhood.

- Well quite.
Thankfully this is very much the behaviour of the very small minority.

I agree that those who are mentally incompetent, e.g. retards, skizos. should get help, but not psychos.

- You are entitled to your opinion.

Like I said before some people cannot be helped (in which case they will/should be detained indefinitely) but I think we should always be willing to try and help.
It is a sign of our humanity at work.

I know that someone who rapes/murders/molests is calculated. Rapists who put a tab in a girl's drink isn't gonna ask for a burger is he? They are not mentally incompetent.

- I suspect, like me, you are no expert criminal psychiatrist but I do know the illness in the case of rape is to do with exerting power and domination over the victim, it is almost never about sex.

Despite being able to 'function' and carry out the acts leading up to the attack "the incompetence" is all about a twisted view of other people and a feeling that it is acceptable to 'force' them to another's' will.

psychos are usually quite smart individuals. They believe what they did was right and justified.

- .....and what?
That does not mean they not mentally ill.

I would have no qualms about shooting a rapist in the face.

- Is that meant to be impressive.

What on earth are you on about?

Especially if they raped/murdered/molested a friend or a family member of mine. Oh, but you couldn't do that could ya? Far too high and mighty for a mere mortal like me, your supreme morals comes first.

- I do not understand where you get these ridiculous ideas from.
You know nothing about me.

Where did I ever say a person should not act in self defence?

Surely since they consider us mere objects for them to play with, not even sub-human, we should be justified in capital punishment should we not?

- Not if you believe capital punishment is never the right thing to do, no, we shouldn't.

Truddling them along to prison and given them a "battered" xbox with a couple of games is merely brushing the problem under the carpet.

- How does that work?
They are already convicted and in prison at that stage, correct?

'They' are not all the same.
Some will appear 'normal' (but be far from it) and some so mentally incapable that they will never just sit and watch TV or play a game etc.

Ignoring the psychopath problem is a bad idea.

- .....er, where did anyone here talk about "ignoring the psychopath problem"?

Perhaps you should just try and stick to what people are actually saying in future instead of what you imagine or want people to have said, hmmm?

Also, very cute quoting my thing.

- It's just a handy way of addressing your own comments point by point.

It's almost enough to make me cry.

- Er, what are you talking about?

.....and yes, when all you can manage are some lame personal insults that is indeed childish in the extreme.

[edit on 19-11-2005 by sminkeypinkey]

We can never agree can we? We're just too different in ideologies. But I would also like to point out a couple of things.

I still think it's a way of apologising for what they did. Whatever.

Psychos aren't going to prisons. HUZZAH! I found a link that says some go to mental hospitals. news.bbc.co.uk... It's a couple of years old, so who knows if they still do it.

And to clear this up. I laughed at the first bit because it tickles me of the thought of Wings getting back together. Sorry you didn't see the joke. Probebly a bad one.
And about shooting a rapist in the face? It's no boast. I'd do it, if it prevents another girl or guy's life being ruined. And yes. The idea of the rape and the murder of any family is ridiculous. Wouldn't be so ridiculous if it happened to you, would it? Perhaps I should have also said after the whole thing took place to clear confusion. Also, to clear confusion, despite some psychos going to hospital indefintely, there are still some who go through to jail. Its too expensive to get all of them "treated" so might as well just cart them off to jail and ignore the potential problems that might cause for the other inmates who are only doing it out of necessity e.g shoplifting etc. Not that anybody else IN THIS FORUM said it. I should have pointed it out and be more detailed so that poor mr smirky don't get lost. That in my personal opinion blah blah blah.

Tell me something. Do crimes of such magnitude as say, Holly and Jessica not sicken you? Especially when Ian Huntley, their murderer lied on national television in a effort to cover his own ass? That shows calculated thought doesn't it? He could have went to the police immediately and confessed, but he didn't. And I find it very sad. Cause the kids got the death penelty, the family got life and Ian Huntly got bed and breakfast rent free for the rest of his days. Is that justice?
Whatever. We'd never agree on anything.
Not reading this anymore anyway. Got too much of that horrid thing, what do you call it? Emotion?

Originally posted by MacDonagh
We can never agree can we?

- Well lets just say it helps if we discuss the things I have actually said, huh?

I still think it's a way of apologising for what they did.

- I just do not get this at all.
How is understanding why and how something happened in any way to excuse the event itself?

Psychos aren't going to prisons. HUZZAH! I found a link that says some go to mental hospitals. news.bbc.co.uk... It's a couple of years old, so who knows if they still do it.

- Some go to prisons and some go to mental institutions.
Being 'detained at HM's pleasure' in a psychiatric institution is as open-ended a sentence as it gets.

And to clear this up. I laughed at the first bit because it tickles me of the thought of Wings getting back together. Sorry you didn't see the joke. Probably a bad one.

- Well I'm sorry I just didn't think it was a joke.
I find 'Wings' nothing to laugh about at all. (er, that's a joke from me btw )

And about shooting a rapist in the face? It's no boast. I'd do it, if it prevents another girl or guy's life being ruined.

- Yeah well, as you say, whatever.
Lots of people make all sorts of claims before being faced with terrible realities, here's hoping you never have to find out what you'd actually do.

And yes. The idea of the rape and the murder of any family is ridiculous.

Wouldn't be so ridiculous if it happened to you, would it?

- Thankfully it is a reality only a tiny minority of people in our country ever have to face for real.

Perhaps I should have also said after the whole thing took place to clear confusion.

- Well you can go along with vigilante-ism if you like, frankly I think our society works better under the rule of law and not under the rule of the grudge-holder (think of places like Sicily or Albania for the disaster that endless feuds, vendettas and the like have been).

Also, to clear confusion, despite some psychos going to hospital indefintely, there are still some who go through to jail.

- I do not doubt it; but that is still a different issue from making sweeping statements about them getting off easy.

Its too expensive to get all of them "treated" so might as well just cart them off to jail and ignore the potential problems that might cause for the other inmates who are only doing it out of necessity e.g shoplifting etc.

- Isn't that why they have various 'categories' of prison, hmmm?

I should have pointed it out and be more detailed so that poor mr smirky don't get lost. That in my personal opinion blah blah blah.

- You know, if you could cut out the petty, unnecessary and ridiculous attempts to bait there might be a decent debate to be had here.

Tell me something. Do crimes of such magnitude as say, Holly and Jessica not sicken you?

- Yes.

.....and?

Especially when Ian Huntley, their murderer lied on national television in a effort to cover his own ass?

- I think you'll find that is not uncommon nowadays.

That shows calculated thought doesn't it?

- Did anyone deny any element of calculation?

Are you saying the fact of 'calculation' is proof of sanity!?

And I find it very sad.

- I don't see anyone arguing about this.

Cause the kids got the death penelty, the family got life and Ian Huntly got bed and breakfast rent free for the rest of his days.

- OK, you think a life time deprived of liberty is just free B&B.

I disagree.

Is that justice?

- It is in the UK.

Whatever. We'd never agree on anything.
Not reading this anymore anyway. Got too much of that horrid thing, what do you call it? Emotion?

- Perhaps you should try calming down a little before entering into debate then?

Its quite funny, people refering to the death penalty as "barbaric". Seeing how civilization itself with built upon it and other ideals. Anyone ever hear of a thing called "The code of Hammaraubi"? You know, eye for an eye, life for a life?

In fact, most primitive societies dont kill criminals, they simply banish them.

Every great civilization in the world has had the death penalty during its existance.

I dont think its inhumane. Keeping people locked in cages like animals is pretty inhumane.

Nice lethal injection and your problems are solved.

Eugh!

Please, not lethal injection!!!!

Just work them to death.

How about we just let the victim's family decide.

That would work for me.

Deffinetly Not!
The death penalty was abolished because we as british citezens see it as unjust. Life(Actual Life) in prison is far more of a punishment than simply death... To be honest i would be happy to be put to death than withstand prison till you die anyway.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
Nice lethal injection and your problems are solved.

I agree with most of your points, yet the fact remains the system collapses as soon as the first innocent is executed. I cannot support the death penalty because of this.

It's simple, those who willfully violate other peoples human rights don't deserve human rights.

Off with there heads...

Just to get rid of the myth of all prisoners having X-Boxes in their cell- the prisoners at Bullingdon prison (the one Odium cited as a 5* hotel) get to have a games console in their cell for very good behaviour. Not every prisoner has one.
From website-
Regime: Bullingdon operates a three-tier system of regime (Basic, Standard and Enhanced), as part of an Incentives and Earned Privileges programme.
You behave well, you get priveleges.
So now you can all stop assuming every prisoners in the UK has an Xbox
My mum worked there for about 15 years, my mum's boyfriend is working there currently as a prison officer, so I have pretty good sources.