Jehovah's Witness's (NWT) Flawed??

Smallpeeps,

I agree with all your points. Personally, im an agnostic theist, and I always find it amusing when people bash anothers religion thats based on the same core teachings. The problem with the JW's teachings as well as 99% of all religions, is that they preach exclusivity, however, what they all fail to realize is that there is no PURE religion. Thats the first thing you learn in a religion course. Religions are not static. Every one of them has evolved from their original teachings into a form that is suitable for the times. They have all been modified and edited.
People place too much faith in their religion and not enough faith in their God.

**waits for it "But the bible says!..." **

Originally posted by xEphon
Smallpeeps,

I agree with all your points. Personally, im an agnostic theist, and I always find it amusing when people bash anothers religion thats based on the same core teachings. The problem with the JW's teachings as well as 99% of all religions, is that they preach exclusivity, however, what they all fail to realize is that there is no PURE religion. Thats the first thing you learn in a religion course. Religions are not static. Every one of them has evolved from their original teachings into a form that is suitable for the times. They have all been modified and edited.
People place too much faith in their religion and not enough faith in their God.

**waits for it "But the bible says!..." **

Yes, xEphon, you identify an important point. I highlighted it above.

First, I want to say that I don't hate the Jehovah's Witnesses as people. My views are fairly summed up by this excellent online story I found from an ex-JW:

www.chnetwork.org...

The Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses assumes Papal Authority in maintaining exclusivity as to doctrinal interpretation, and the organization prioritizes dogma, doctrine and legalism above love, faith, hope and mercy. This attitude permeates entire congregations and pollutes their effectiveness in executing any Scriptural mandates. I observed politics, gossip, and treachery rampant in many congregations. This comment is not meant as an attack. Despite all of my troubles I still have affection for many Witnesses and truly care about several individuals in particular.

It's hard for ex-members to do anything because the group is so polarized against "Apostates" (people who leave the group). I still care about many of the people I grew up with. Also I have never posted a thread to ATS which slams the WTB&TS (Watchtower Bible and Tract Society) but have simply participated in posts which others have started. However, when I DO post my own thread about this group, everyone will know it. Believe that.

As for the church itself, you are correct; according to them, The New World Translation is the most perfect translation of the bible. Also, according to them, their religion is the only one which God will spare. There's that perfection you mentioned.

Speaking of "sparing" them, This JW church clearly has protection/support from some parts at the highest levels of the US government. The supreme court of the USA has repeatedly (and quietly) defended the Watchtower's right to knock on doors, regardless of the fact that this doorknocking is meant only to put their cultish socialist-zionist propaganda into the hands of American citizens.

How does that help America or the world?

It's weird, isn't it, that the US government lets an anti-patriot group conduct a paper-route to Americans' doorsteps while actual, valid protests during the POTUS inaugaration are restricted absurdly? Is it simply freedom of the press over freedom of speech? Hmm... I remember "the press" and "endless magazines to flood peoples lives with disinfo" as being part of some Zionist manifesto somewhere. I'll not mention it here for fear of being called an anti-semite (let the reader use discernment).

Anyway, this isn't religion. In fact, one can easily find historical pictures in the J-Dub publications which show original members wearing placards saying "Religion is a Snare and a Racket!". This is from the early days when Russell/Rutherford wanted to make it clear that the JWs were not a religion, but just simple bible "students". Doesn't that sound a bit anti-Christian to you?

I have posted negatively on ATS about the term "religion" because I generally hate all religions equally, particularly the barbaric ones which stream from the original supposed tribal chief of Earth, "Noah". I fail to see why any of his or his offspring's children should be seen as extra-special, or why the Abrahamic "seed" should dominate the Earth (heavenly misogyny anyone?), but that's just me. Anyway, the point is that it is an even higher height of hubris and self delusion for the Watchtower to elevate it's psuedo-religious corporate incarnation as some new kind of religion while still being anti-religon. In doing so, it makes them even more evil than the religions they attack.

The larger question I'm raising (let's stay on topic) is if the New World translation of the bible, as created by the WTB&TS, is conspiritorial in its elimination of "LORD" where the tetragrammaton YHWH appears in the hebrew manuscripts. I say yes, because it is the desire of their "church" to reduce the effectiveness of Christianity in the USA (and globally). Jesus must be seen as lower than his Father. There is a certain Jewish anathema to any man who claims to be God or like God in any way. It is this perspective which runs through all the WTB&TS propaganda. Their translation of the bible is no different.

Now as to the related question I asked (and my reason for bumping this thread), I am wondering if it matters to anybody that Wikipedia claims Ike was sworn in on a NWT translation of the bible, according to Wikipedia:

en.wikipedia.org...

Ike enjoyed a close relationship with his mother throughout their lifetimes, and he even used a WatchTower printed Bible for his second Presidential Inauguration. In later years, Eisenhower was baptized, confirmed, and became a communicant in the Presbyterian church in a single ceremony on February 1, 1953, just weeks after his first inauguration as president. In his retirement years, he was a member of the Gettysburg Presbyterian Church [1] in Gettysburg, Pennsylvania.

But this is strange, if true. Why would he use the NWT for his second inaugaration? Why would he do this? I guess it's possible that Ike felt that every bible is the same, but Ike had to know what made the NWT different from other bibles, used by Christians.

It is also part of JW mythos (I don't know if its true) that some JFK museum somewhere has a replica of JFK's desk the day he died, and there is a copy of "The Truth that Leads to Eternal Life" on this replica desk. This little blue "Truth" book was famously published all over the world by the J-Dubs in their 1970-s armageddon panic. Now this book is outdated and is actively buried by the WTB&TS brass. Why would JFK have been reading this book or have it on his desk? I'd love to know if this story is true.

There are a lot of questions unanswered here.


[edit on 15-1-2006 by smallpeeps]

Jehovahs witness's have the freedom to go door to door because god wills it. just as the apostles had the chance to do. what was jesus's # 1 thing he did? he went out and taught people face to face, preached his fathers kingdom and actively looking to draw in people. that being said....

i dont remember the last time a catholic knocked on my door proclaiming gods kindom, or a baptist coming to my door or a 7th day adventist...or any of the other false relgions mentioned in the bible...accurately described as babylon the great, meaning the world empire of false relgions. Any relgion that does not acknowledge the creator by name and give 100% glory to him is a false relgion. a religion that cheers political leaders and cheers when they go off to wars is a false relgion.

Some amusing comments on this topic.


I'll reply to a few here (I'm not a JW, but know their Doctrines):

Witnesses think that 144,000 elect persons go to heaven and the rest will inherit the Earth as a Paradise or convert it rather after the 2nd coming. If they looked at you with a blank stare I guess they hadn't read that part in their books yet to tell you. Only the elect partake in drinking and eating during the Passover. ( I really don't know how a person considers themselve elect or plain Jane)



As far as the scriptures go, they do seem to change the words around. The biggest of course taking the name Yahweh and transforming it into some Greek name Jehovah. Even replacing in the Old Testament where it was once Yahweh with their new word Jehovah.

I hardly believe their souls are in danger anymore then some other person in their sect of Christianity. They are at least going door to door trying whereas no others would have that zeal to go door to door. People say they don't believe in Christ, yet the reason they go door to door is because Christ himself commanded we take this news to the people at their doors. They are of course taking their Dogma to your door, just as any other Televangelist does the same on your TV.

You may not accept their beliefs anymore then they accept yours, but in the end they are clean nice people doing what they beleive to be the truth.

As far as the Trinity goes I've written topics on that as well as many others you might like or not like. I use Hebrew and Greek to make my point not King James.

www.numberman.net...

Satan Topics:

www.numberman.net...

www.numberman.net...


John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word: the Word was with God and the Word was God.

John 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.

John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Not sure how you see 1 entity here. - Word with God, The Word Was God (Because anything that represents God is God as he sent/created it to testify he is God), He was with God and all things were made by him. You as well as countless others in Christianity claim God is Jesus and Jesus is God.... Not sure how you come to those conclusions. He was the Son of God just as it says many times over throughout the scriptures and He and the Father are one just as the same when a man and woman marry they become one. The father is greater then He, He was always praying to the Father, There were 3 distinct entities at his Baptism Christ, Dove, Voice. This is my son - whom I've approved ... They are not the same being, but are One in purpose.

I have only one short message about this, mainly because I was just thinking about the JW's. Why ring my door bell to tell me about something that can only hold 144,000 people, when I am obviously holding a ticket with a number far greater than #144,001?

To answer your question...yes, the JW's NWT is flawed...but so is the Holy Bible, the Quran, and Webster's Dictionary...

rowdyroddy said:
Jehovahs witness's have the freedom to go door to door because god wills it.

So you're saying that Jehovah, the Hebrew God-Almighty, is controlling the US Supreme Court. Do I understand correctly?

i dont remember the last time a catholic knocked on my door proclaiming gods kindom, or a baptist coming to my door or a 7th day adventist..

Here's what you don't grasp:

Nobody wants a priest OR a JW knocking on their door. Jesus did not command his followers to IRRITATE their neighbors which is the primary result of the doorknocking activity.

I knew this when I was a wee little J-dub, but nobody around me seemed to get it, so I cooperated and played along. I knew these people behind the doors, --some not even COMING to the door, hiding behind thier couches, shushing their kids to be quiet, etc-- were not interested. They are just not interested because nobody wants religion knocking on their door, get it? You think you're saving their lives, but all cult members think they're saving the non-cult-member's life.

Only a J-dub would say, "Catholics are not doing Christ's work because they aren't out doorknocking." NEWSFLASH: Jesus said to do ONE NEW THING and that's love one another. The Watchtower pseudo-church doesn't do that, therefore they are not Christian in any way. Period.

.or any of the other false relgions mentioned in the bible...accurately described as babylon the great, meaning the world empire of false relgions. Any relgion that does not acknowledge the creator by name and give 100% glory to him is a false relgion. a religion that cheers political leaders and cheers when they go off to wars is a false relgion.

What false religions mentioned in the bible are you talking about? Taoism? Hindu?

God how blind you are, Roddy. You really do believe what you wrote above. You really do see all other religions except the JWs as deserving death and destruction. I am curious tho'; do you ever wonder how Jehovah intends to wipe them out? Do you think it'll be tornadoes from heaven or will the ground open up and swallow them all? Do you think he might use tsunamis also, to drown the unbelievers?

I suggest you erase all the JW ideas from your mind, and just meditate, thinking about the quality of love, which is what Jesus wanted from you. NOT doorknocking. If you want to be a Christian, you must show love, particularly to those who are weak and helpless. Learning to be and to display love, is the path you need to get on. Forget the doorknocking because only a giant, multinational bible-selling publishing company would send you down the doorknocking path to Christ.


[edit on 16-1-2006 by smallpeeps]

smallpeeps, that's not true...Mormons will send you down the doorknocking path too...

You know smallpeeps,

As odd as it sounds, your probably giving him more faith by trying to point out how extreme his actions are. I'll admit it, my mother was a JW for a while. They really believe that they have a special calling from God because they are extremist in their faith. AGAIN! I'm not knocking on you if you happen to be a JW. But most people take that stance. Its like this akward cycle. Engage in extreme behavior...get criticised for said behavior...use said criticism as "proof of persecution"...quote bible by saying that the "true" religion will suffer persection...rinse and repeat
But at the same time ignoring all the other facts and issues that may bring your religion into question. Namely, the origins, which of course, is the inherent problem of them all.
Its one thing to have absolute faith in God. Its quite anoter to have absolute faith in a man made religion without question.

I understand what you are saying about extremists believing that persecution puts better cards in their hands. I think what they fail to realize is that the Christians were burned, impailed, tortured, etc. during the Middle Ages. Joseph Smith and the Latter Day Saints were always being persecuted, and it was actually LEGAL to shoot and kill a Mormon on the spot. Do we remember World War II and the Jews?

Persecution does NOT mean that it is correct, and I know that there are people within the JW's telling you "yes, yes, yes" and people outside of the JW's telling you "no, no, no" but in the end it's all up to you. Don't let the inside or outside forces affect your decision, make it be an inside choice. Don't be fooled by psychology...

catastrophic_insinuations said:smallpeeps, that's not true...Mormons will send you down the doorknocking path too...

Yes, but they also are a multinational publishing company. Have you seen the slick TV commericals LDS church puts out? Holy crap they've got a top-notch media department. Big time money making as opposed to the J-Dubs who are fleeced and kept generally financially stupid. Mormons help each other more and are less cultish when they remove members from good standing, but they are both publishing companies, make no mistake about that.

Okay, LDS is more of a religion than the JWs in that they acknowledge the holy spirit (usually shortened to "spirit" which kinda freaks me out), whereas the JWs will never mention 'spirit' or being moved by the spirit. This would never, ever come from the mouth of a JW. It's too goyim and Hebrew a group for anything like that. Jehovah is far away, and he needs Christ as a sort of telephone line to talk to us. Mormons believe in the trinity and are quite nationalistic. I think they feel Christ is God and that his Holy Spirit moves them to do his will, generally. No JW would ever agree to that statement, in fact they'd die first, so complete is their mindset that Jesus is not like God.

I understand what you are saying about extremists believing that persecution puts better cards in their hands. I think what they fail to realize is that the Christians were burned, impailed, tortured, etc. during the Middle Ages. Joseph Smith and the Latter Day Saints were always being persecuted, and it was actually LEGAL to shoot and kill a Mormon on the spot. Do we remember World War II and the Jews?

Yes, this is exactly what David Koresh felt when the ATF rolled up on his doorstep, presumably. His followers were never more convinced of his righteousness.

Persecution does NOT mean that it is correct, and I know that there are people within the JW's telling you "yes, yes, yes" and people outside of the JW's telling you "no, no, no" but in the end it's all up to you. Don't let the inside or outside forces affect your decision, make it be an inside choice. Don't be fooled by psychology...

Thanks. Uh, incedentally, I'm not a JW anymore. That's why I'm talking smack and describing a conspiracy here, ya know?

We're talking about the J-Dub bible here, folks. The "New World" translation and specifically a possible conspiracy in regard to this translation of the bible. Let's keep it on topic.


[edit on 17-1-2006 by smallpeeps]

Originally posted by xEphon
You know smallpeeps,

As odd as it sounds, your probably giving him more faith by trying to point out how extreme his actions are. I'll admit it, my mother was a JW for a while. They really believe that they have a special calling from God because they are extremist in their faith. AGAIN! I'm not knocking on you if you happen to be a JW. But most people take that stance. Its like this akward cycle. Engage in extreme behavior...get criticised for said behavior...use said criticism as "proof of persecution"...quote bible by saying that the "true" religion will suffer persection...rinse and repeat

But at the same time ignoring all the other facts and issues that may bring your religion into question. Namely, the origins, which of course, is the inherent problem of them all.
Its one thing to have absolute faith in God. Its quite anoter to have absolute faith in a man made religion without question.

Yes, but that's a weak argument for not trying to help anyway. People can learn and modify their belief systems. Also, they may have something truly blessed happen in their life, and that can cause them to think again.

The Jehovah Witness church's famous "prophecy" date was what? ANSWER: 1914.

So their church was founded on a prophecy fulfilled by war, yes?

So what is the intelligence connection that allowed Charles Taze Russell to know something was brewing in 1914? Something warlike?

If you look at their other armageddon dates, they're mostly around periods of war or extreme global crisis. What did they know, and what made them think that another prophecy (war) would happen? Look at the pattern underlying their failed predictions.

Is Armageddon planned?

How would global religion come about, and what would it look like, beforehand? What form would a nascent, embryonic global theocracy take? How would you form that group to survive and thrive on Earth after "Armageddon"? The answers all lie at your local Kingdom Hall.


[edit on 17-1-2006 by smallpeeps]

smallpeeps...that post wasn't intended for you, I was agreeing with what xEphon was saying.

As far as the LDS Church is concerned. They do not believe in the trinity, but rather the Godhead in which God (Heavenly Father), Jesus Christ, and The Holy Ghost (sometimes called Holy Spirit) are three seperate entities working for the same purpose. Christ is not God, God is not Christ. Christ was the Creator of the world, given the power and direction from God (this part still makes little sense to me). The Holy Ghost does not have a body, so it can dwell within each individual person that received the Gift of the Holy Ghost.

[edit on 1/17/2006 by catastrophic_insinuations]

Originally posted by catastrophic_insinuations

As far as the LDS Church is concerned. They do not believe in the trinity, but rather the Godhead in which God (Heavenly Father), Jesus Christ, and The Holy Ghost (sometimes called Holy Spirit) are three seperate entities working for the same purpose. Christ is not God, God is not Christ. Christ was the Creator of the world, given the power and direction from God (this part still makes little sense to me). The Holy Ghost does not have a body, so it can dwell within each individual person that received the Gift of the Holy Ghost.

Wow, I have never seen it put so well. I was not aware of that to this degree, maybe a Mormon would disagree here? Either way I see no scriptural basis for such and they also have the New Testament. Hmmm Spooky.

Originally posted by AlwaysLearning
She said it was the most important day of the year for JW's, the day they CELEBRATE the crucifixtion of Jesus Christ!!!!!

christians have only one celebration they are required to observe

initiated by Jesus christ , he asked that a memorial be observed of the passover meal

we (Jehovah's Witnesses) do not celebrate his being killed in anything other than a respectfull observance of the Christs own wishes

Originally posted by Nygdan
Are you saying that they purposely translated the text incorrectly to advance a different theology, or that they were merely inept?

John wrote the first verse of the book named after him very carefully - its worded in the only way possible that could infer the Christ being like God

if John had wanted to say that the Word was God , he had 4 different ways of saying exactly that , & a half dozen others ways of inferring it

he was trading a fine line amongst the jews for heresy

their is only one Creator who made all creation possible , under inspiration God revealed to the writers of the scriptures that "the Son" was used in helping with all creative works . the Son is "Divine" (like God)

"the Word was with God & the Word was Divine (like God)"

Originally posted by kozmo
What always befuddles them is when I ask, "If only 144,000 of you are going to heaven and you have over 2 million members, what are the rest of you going to do?"

God meant from the start to have a human family here on earth

growing so old that you die was never part of the plan , this happened because of sin

the 144,000 are people who have been selected by God to act as preists over the Earth , the 144,00 are to serve with the Christ in heaven

all other humans will live on the earth

Originally posted by edsinger
it seems that 'someone' helped him 'interpret' the scripture in a way that denies the Christ....John is the most commonly used verse and the other is this one:

John 14:28 "You have heard Me say to you, 'I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, 'I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I.

at no time did JC direct worship anywhere except towards his Father

in no vision is the HS ever seen , only "the Father" is worshiped & has all other angels in subordination to him

John 1v1 is the single scriptuere that can be used to imply that Jesus was Jehovah in the flesh , but it doesnt say anything of the sort

to translate 1v1 as saying "the" God , you first have to believe that Jesus was God in the flesh . because John's wording doesnt allow it

the trinity is a very old belief system that predates judaisim , the HS got tacked in because it was the best candidate for the third party . the trinity wasnt preached while the apostles were alive - they understood the relationship as they were directed by God himself

the trinity belief had its start in christianity after the apostles had all died , after preists got swayed with comparing other variuous pagan teachings (which many converts to christianity had growen up with)

the trinity left the realm of theology & became part of thecanonical teaching only after the nicean council

I work with a guy who is a JW, he believes he is cursed and that demons surround him and hurt his life on a regular basis. He thinks it is because of his love of the "true God, Jehovah" he claims alot of supernatural things happen to him in a negative nature and that it is because of the curse brought on by his beliefs. He is always sick in his body and mind.

It is sad, really.

Originally posted by smallpeeps
Books alone won't get you there.

Proverbs 3 v 5 :
"trust in Jehovah with all your heart & do not lean upon your own understanding"

mans philosophysing on his own , without the Holy Spirit inspiring them like the prophets & apostles had , is what has led to the corruption of the christianity

as the parable says , weeds satan has sowen sprouted right from the ways beginning

much of christianity is under the influence of Gods enemy , Satan .

Jehovahs Witnesses accomplish their ministry only because of Jehovahs protection & support .

no group of humans could accomplish this work (spreading the knowledge of God & his coming Kingdom) on earth on their own in this satan ruled system of things .

[edit on 7-4-2007 by Brad_cf]

Originally posted by Brad_cf

John 1v1 is the single scriptuere that can be used to imply that Jesus was Jehovah in the flesh , but it doesnt say anything of the sort

to translate 1v1 as saying "the" God , you first have to believe that Jesus was God in the flesh . because John's wording doesnt allow it

Hmmm You understand Greek then? You had better do some research to see where the teachings you believe in for your salvation came from, just some advice, research it yourself.


Did Christ not claim it right to the Jews with "I AM"


Did he not claim He is the Alpha and the Omega....therefore if he had no beginning..well you get the idea.

Yeah only 144,000, that's been the JW claim for a long time. I love it when they come by the house, love to show them the ACTUAL Greek where the words are very specific...

"The Word WAS GOD"....