Jesus is not God - Here's the proof !

So if God knew that Adam and Eve would eat the fruit why tempt them in the first place and why ask where they were hiding.

Also why give us free will and then tell us believe in God or else your going to Hell, not much of a choice is it. Do as I command basically, he never gave the people during the flood much free will or the people of Sodom and Gomorrah. Never gave jesus much of an option either.

Also why floods, plagues etc a God who creates all in a supernatural 6 days needs oh so natural disasters to wipe out the human race and punish them. Why doesn't he click his fingers and blink us out of existence, easier in the long run.

It all seems a bit concocted IMHO


G

[edit on 25-8-2005 by shihulud]

So if God knew that Adam and Eve would eat the fruit why tempt them in the first place and why ask where they were hiding.

One commandement.....Do not eat or you shall die!......fasting.....one law of God.

God asked them , because He wanted a confession from them....to admit to BREAKING THE ONE LAW......that's all...and since both blamed the other ,the result was DEATH .....''The STING OF DEATH IS SIN''.....nature changed because of that one consequence.....in order for it to go back to the way it was,MAN had to be found worthy enough to reverse the CHANGE....Since no man was found worthy, God took flesh and became the Son of God....He took the FORM OF MAN (as a servant)to destroy SIN which is DEATH ''The STING OF DEATH IS SIN''.....this was DESTROYED...as is written in the scriptures.


Like a parent who wants what is best for their child.....he tells them that there will be consequences for not listening.....He then asks for an apology....and although the apology is accepted....things are not the same as they were before.
Hope that helps.

IX
helen

EDIT FORGOT....

Also why give us free will and then tell us believe in God or else your going to Hell, not much of a choice is it. Do as I command basically, he never gave the people during the flood much free will or the people of Sodom and Gomorrah. Never gave jesus much of an option either.

He did not say you will go to hell.....God does not want to send anyone to hell.....
We all live in a society with rules and laws....we have to follow those rules or else their are consequences.....FOR THE GOOD OF US!

When God gave that one commandement.....He did say ''YOU WILL SURELY DIE''.....and they surely did die.
Now, since they were the first CREATED MAN......FIRST CREATED WOMAN
not first BORN!
Everything was in favour for them......they had everything they needed....BUT were deceived by the serpant(whom the devil possessed)..because he was jelous at God for creating MAN in His image.....to replace the FALLEN ANGELS....God GAVE the first man a SOUL(breath of God)....HOLY SPIRIT(second of the one GOD......TRI-UNITY)....with His WORD (Third of the trinityor The Son of God Jesus Christ,but still known as the WORD(LOGOS)....still ONE GOD)He made MAN(ADAM)HIGHER then the angels...for He gave them a SOUL.....FREE WILL....this,the Angels do not have....they worship God because they LOVE Him for creating them..

quote///
By the Word(part of the trinity) of the Lord were the heavens established, and all the might of them by the Spirit of His mouth (Ps. 32:6).
(the Father is called the Lord; the Son, the Word of the Father; and the Holy Spirit, the Breath of the Father.)

quote///
"Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" (Ps. 104:4). These are the words of the King and Prophet David.

The Prophet Isaiah saw seraphim's (6:2) and Ezekiel the cherubim's (10:8) with some other strange creatures around the throne of the Highest. Micaiah said to the King Ahab: I saw the Lord sitting on His throne and all the host of heaven standing by Him on His right hand and on His left (I Kings 22:19).
Nehemiah said in his prayer: Thou, even Thou, art Lord alone; Thou has made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host (Neh. 9:6).

The great Daniel saw God on His throne-and a thousand thousands ministered unto Him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him (Chapters 9 and 10).

St. Paul speaking of the power of Christ says: Who is this image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him. And He (Christ) is before all things, and by Him all things consist (Col. 1:15-17; cf. I Pet. 3:22).

Comparing men with angels, St. Paul quoted they words of an ancient prophet who spoke of God: O Lord - what is man, that Thou art mindful of him? Or the son of man, that Thou visitest him? Thou madest him a little lower than the Angels; Thou crownest him with glory and honor, and didst set him over the works of Thy hands; Thou has put all things in subjection under his feet (Heb. 2:6-8; Ps. 8:4-6).

EXCELLENT ARTICLE ON ANGELS AND FALLEN MAN

Hope I haven't confused you.
helen

[edit on 8/25/2005 by helen670]

Originally posted by glan
15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
God bless all...We all have hope...God saved me

Ooooo, I like that, I have never come across a book filled with as much wisdom, insight, and simple genius as the bible... Just, amazing.

Also why floods, plagues etc a God who creates all in a supernatural 6 days needs oh so natural disasters to wipe out the human race and punish them. Why doesn't he click his fingers and blink us out of existence, easier in the long run.

Ok forgfot to answer that one .....

here is a famous scripture verse....
quote///
Elsewhere, answering those who said that the end was a long time in coming, St. Peter says in his famous statement that “one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years is one day, and that the Lord is only being patient with us until we repent (II Peter 3:8-9).
And then, immediately after that, he gives us a full description of the actual end of the world by fire (3:10-13).

The “thousand years” means a whole period. One thousand is a round number: 10x10x10 in symbolical language means the fullness of time between the First Coming and the Second Coming of Christ.

So when God made man on the 6th day....



God gives us time to repent of our evil ways for OUR OWN GOOD......To those that die in floods ,for whatever reasons they may be ....God knows our thought and desires.....we have prayers or intercessions(intermediators) of Saints(taken from the Old Testament of prayers of the Elders...)who pray these these people.....

The Apostle Paul wrote to newly-converted Christians: "But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn(Perophets and Elders from the Old Testament), which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men(Holy Men) made perfect" (Heb. 12:22-23). In other words, you, by becoming Christians, have joined a great family and come into close contact with the heavenly world and with the righteous who are found therein.
The parting words of the Apostle Peter — "Moreover I will endeavor that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance" (2 Peter 1:15) — clearly attest to the fact that he promises to continue to care about them from that spiritual world.

And so we ask for their prayers on behalf of us (they are mediators ...because they pleased God in their daily lives)BUT this does not mean that we cannot directly pray to God......we feel shame and so we ask for extra prayers.....

also.....

"Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us" (James 5th chapter; 1 Peter 3:6; Heb. 12:1).

Our Intercessors in Heaven

Yes it would be easier for God to just click His fingers, but How that that help us?


IX
helen

You know what keeps me believing?

No matter the questions, or the contradictions I hear about in the bible, my grandfather coming to my mother in her dream will always keep me believing.

My mom had the dream before my grandma died that day, he came to her in her sleep with a big smile on his face and then just disappeared. She got a call from her brother when she awoke saying that mom died.

He believed very much in jesus christ, and was a devout catholic.

I believe he made it because of his faith and the dream is proof enough for me.

Originally posted by eudaimonia
Wouldn't this be considered the greatest deception known to mankind? I mean, it makes the most sense, if you really think about it all. Taking a step back and looking at organized religion and how much influence and power it has over the people and all governments worldwide? People drop on their knees, praying til their eyes bleed hoping to shine some light upon this earth and it's people, but...nothing happens. Maybe because he is just a fictional character? Maybe we're talking to ourselves? Maybe we are the ones who really matter. Maybe we are the powerful ones. Maybe we hold every secret within us to achieve true happiness. Maybe..just maybe.. we are the true gods. Is it possible that we don't know this yet because we haven't really tapped into our true potential? Our...true selves? I think it's more than probable, and I believe we're looking at the greatest lie ever told and it's been staring at us all this time.

Noone said Jesus was god, Jesus himself claimed he was the son of god. Also how can we possibly all be gods ourselves. Did u mean that all billions of people on earth are gods?

Originally posted by SeekarOfTruth
Noone said Jesus was god, Jesus himself claimed he was the son of god. Also how can we possibly all be gods ourselves. Did u mean that all billions of people on earth are gods?

Eeeew.... That would suck since billions of people do suck.... meanies, thieves, rapists, murderers, control freaks, elitist pricks, and omniscent minds....

Who would want to worship these people?

I think I just about mentioned everyone in politics...

True lies.......Yes, when the Body dies and the spirit let's go of the body,it is said that for 40 days it goes where it still wants to hold on.....that is known from the Old Testament to when Christ stayed with His Apostles..

forty days symbolizes the time our Lord remained with His disciples after rising from the dead.
Every Christian is an "alter Christus" ("another Christ"), that is we identify with our Lord and He with us. Thus our death is a parallel to His Resurrection and the forty days are a parallel to His Ascension.

Christ....ANNOINTED
Jesus.....SAVIOUR

So on our soul departing ....for the first 40 days prayers are said.....as was the Old Custom of the Elders and priests of the Old Testament......Still is a custom with the Jews.

In ancient times, the deceased were mourned for forty days.

The number forty is a remarkable one, often encountered in Divine Scripture. The Hebrew people fed upon manna in the desert for forty years.
The prophet Moses fasted for forty days and nights in his travels to Mt. Horeb.

After Baptism, the Lord Jesus Christ spent forty days and nights in the desert, and after His Resurrection likewise spent forty days teaching the Apostles the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven.

In ancient times, the deceased were mourned for forty days. The number forty is a remarkable one, often encountered in Divine Scripture. The Hebrew people fed upon manna in the desert for forty years. The prophet Moses fasted for forty days and nights in his travels to Mt. Horeb. After Baptism, the Lord Jesus Christ spent forty days and nights in the desert, and after His Resurrection likewise spent forty days teaching the Apostles the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven.

Following the Apostolic tradition that adopted the ancient Jewish custom of the Old Testament Church to mourn the deceased for forty days, the Holy Church has since its early days properly and piously established the rule of commemorating the reposed over the course of forty days (the “soroko-ust”...meaning fourty and especially on the fortieth day (“sorochiny”). As the Lord Jesus Christ, spending forty days in fasting and prayer, conquered the devil, so the Holy Church, offering prayers, alms and the Bloodless Sacrifice over the course of forty days, asks God’s grace for the reposed, that our enemy, the prince of darkness of the air, the devil, might be defeated, and that the deceased might inherit the Heavenly Kingdom,

As love, according to the Apostle, never ceases (1 Corinthians 13:8)

'For they have labored forever and shall live to the end' (Ps. 48:8-9).

Even in the Old Testament miracles were worked through the relics veneration of the saints, an example of which is the prophet Elisha, of whom it is said that "after his death his body prophesied" (Eccles. 48:13), and through whose relics life was restored to a dead man (IV Kings 13:20-21).

IX
helen
Take care

So what your saying is that even though God knew that they would eat and knew that the serpent (by the way where did satan come into it, no mention in the OT) would tempt Eve and that they would hide etc he still lets them eat and has the audacity to chastise them and demand answers when he knew that this would happen. It seems to me that that was what God intended, Man would sin so he could punish them, not a very nice diety in my book. Why give your creation free will in the first place just to punish them for choosing something.
Also a point about the serpent, why portray it as being evil and then in Matt 16:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. That would indicate that the serpent in genesis was a wise creature.

“one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years is one day, and that the Lord is only being patient with us until we repent (II Peter 3:8-9)."

Sorry but in Genesis it states 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. That indicates a period of a day not a thousand years so I don't accept that it took 6 thousand years, thats not what is said. It is possible that Peter 3:8-9 was concocted to justify the length of time.

"God gives us time to repent of our evil ways for OUR OWN GOOD" why give us time if he knows the outcome, just kill us all and be done with it as were all sinners. A small point on sinners, if we are all sinners by birth and blood, Jesus must be a sinner even though he wasn't born in sin he has sin in his blood as all humans supposedly came from Adam and Eve who passed sinning on to everyone.

G

"God" means the Father who loves us,
the Son Who saves,
the Holy Spirit who abides within us.
In the words of St. Paul, the fullness of God consists of "the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit" (2 Cor. 13:14)

NOW .......Why does Jesus Christ say ...
quote///

As the Lord Himself said, in His discourse with Nicodemus, Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God (John 3:5)

the need for BABTISM ...In the name of the Father,Son and Holy Spirit.

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost"
(Matthew 28:19)

As St. Paul put it in Galatians 3:27, "for as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ..."

Which means we become NEW....THE STING OF DEATH IS SIN......has been abolished!

Jesus Christ is ......."the image of the invisible God" (Col. 1:15).

In the words of St. Paul, the fullness of God consists of "the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit" (2 Cor. 13:14)

IX
helen

" Jesus IS The Beast 666. Math PROVES it! "

That has to be my favorite quote out of any of those websites.

Originally posted by helen670Man was created witha FREE WILL....You chose the path you want to follow.

Hell was created for the fallen angels....DEMONS.

You have a propensity for posting scripture, Helen, yet it appears that you are not familiar with same as a whole.

The above statements when studied together as you have offered them, not only contradict each other, but the latter is one of the most impoverished supports for Christianity ever put forward. Let me start with that, the latter, and while I am at it, I am going to pre-empt your response and jump ahead of you a bit:

If hell was in fact created for demons, then according to scriptural interpretation, Jesus descended into the bowels of same to not only absolve the supposed hereditary sin of Adam and Eve, but to free these those entrapped in this abyss, including these demons. These demons who were supposedly locked up by God himself are constantly attacking the human psyche and leading man deeper into sin; these very demons who, once chained, were obviously freed by Jesus according to Christian scripture.

Consequently, Helen, your saviour of whom it is said died for man’s sins and then descended into hell, not only released said demons to haunt and control humans, but pardoned said demons of their sinful nature, and which, according to those who claim to have been possessed and those who claim to believe in exorcism, attest to Jesus’ abject failure by this very belief. Of course unless you are a Catholic, in which case my following point on the apocrypha pertains to you, you are obliged to follow the cathecism and proclaim that all he lifted to Heaven were the saints sans demons.

The obvious next question then would be: what saints, and from where do they hail? “Saint” is a term used in the translation of the Bible into English which has come to be understood as God’s Christian elect. In fact, Helen, were you to perform due diligence, you would note that when the Hebrew Tanakh is translated into English, the term “Holy one(s) are used instead of “saint.” A classic example for your review would be 1 Samuel 2:9, where the meaning is not at all as inclusive as the signifier; “saint,” in Christian vernacular.

Just to be sure you understand my point on the use of the word: “saint,” Your NT Revelation dares to assign these a seat beside God, as though God’s Heaven has a need to build itself on our earthly, nay, manly construct of hierarchy. God is omnipotent, at least that is what every Judeo-Christian religion teaches, therefore why is God, who has the ability to oversee the vast universe and every creature to ever live and breathe, in need of a hierarchy to judge those who will and will not be accepted into his kingdom? And why exactly would God need man on earth to determine who is and is not a saint or one of his elect, is he not up to such a task himself?

Now, about hell being created for demons. If this were so, then Peter’s and Paul’s interpretations of Jesus’ descent into this furnace, was for what purpose exactly? Surely neither you nor any other good Christian will insist that all dead souls over 3,799 years had to share this fiery furnace with God’s most despicable but first loved creatures, are you? If so, why? And is it not true, Helen, that whatever knowledge you or any other Christian may have of hell, its hosts and guests, comes to you not from canon, but from apocrypha, the very books banned and considered either heretic or non-divine, such as the Book of Enoch and the dark and disgusting Apocalypse of Peter?

Can you respond Helen, with your own thoughts and without leaning on scripture?

he didnt decend into hell to set the evil spirits free. he decended into hell to validate his power....to prove that they were wrong about his superiority. Satan can never go back to heaven, but jesus can conquer death, decend into hell and leave and return to heaven. In my opinon that was the purpose of his decent.

demons were already around prior to jesus being on the earth...according to scripture. and they arent trapped there. they can roam the earth, they just cant dwell in heaven anymore so that is their dwelling....absent from God. On earth, according to christian belief God is with us all the time, in hell he is not.


Kind Regards,
DigitalGrl

Hi Digi......Jesus Christ descended into hell to free the Old Prophets.....BECAUSE they were still under the ''CURSE'' of SIN.....when Christ Resurrected His MISSION ON EARTH WAS COMPLETE!
He Broke the ''CURSE'' that held MAN captive over DEATH ......."Death, where is thy sting? Where is thy victory? (I Corinthians 15:55).
Death can no longer hold man back......Christ DESTROYED they sting of death......this is what the Old Prophets waited for and prophesied .

After the Resurrection of Christ everything becomes clear and it is with good reason that the Apostle cries out joyfully, 'O death, where is thy sting? O hell, where is thy victory?' ..."
Satan loses!

quote///
Where did the soul of our Lord go after He died? According to Church belief, He descended into Hell with His sermon on deliverance and led from there the souls of those who believed in Him (I Peter 3:19).

. By His Resurrection, the Lord "removed the sting of death." Death is the serpent and sin is its sting.
Those SOULS of the Old Testament..beginning with ADAM and EVE....

At the Fall, man's nature was changed. He still had the image of God in him, but now he had become corrupted. His spiritual corruption made his body more grossly material, subject to physical corruption or decay after death. Also, his spiritual corruption made his soul unable to partake of eternal union with God after death. Paradise had been barred to Adam during his earthly life, and both Paradise and heaven remained barred to him after death. After their death, Adam, Eve, and all their posterity went down into hades: a place of waiting, of separation from God. [9]

Also, at the Fall, all of creation fell into corruption along with man: decay and death were introduced into the creation.
In Romans 5:12 St. Paul says that By one man sin entered the world, and death by sin, and a little later, in Romans 8:20–21, he says that the creation entered into corruption because of man's sin.

The Son of Man came … to give His life as a ransom for many (Matt. 20:28). In the Epistle to the Hebrews we read: Christ is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance (Heb. 9:15).
And in the book of Apocalypse: Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by Thy Blood (Apoc. 5:9).

Christ paid the debt of sin that man himself could never pay. The Apostle John writes in his first Epistle: He [Christ] is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world (I John 2:2). And the Apostle Paul tells us: Ye are bought with a price (I Cor. 6:20, 7:23). St. Paul even says that Christ was made to be sin for us and made a curse for us (II Cor. 5:21, Gal. 3:13).

What Christ Accomplished on the Cross

IX
helen

Digi.....I forgot.....You are right!
The devil and his demons cannot enter heaven anymore......they are fallen angels and are left to roam the earth.......taking any shape and form to trick US ...Will continue till the end of the World....
Since Jesus Christ abolished DEATH through His resurrection, DEATH is no longer a CURSE ....

the Apostle says: It is sown in a natural body, but is raised … a spiritual body (I Cor. 15:44)
as the Apostle says of us, We shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye (I Cor. 15:51)
death has lost......Devil cannot destroy the connection between man and God...

"The descent of Christ into Hell [or Hades] is the manifestation of Life amid the hopelessness of death[;] it is the victory over death" (ibid., p. 21).

The Lord says: "Turn to Me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with lamentation: and rend your hearts..., and turn to the Lord your God: for He is merciful and compassionate, long-suffering, and plenteous in mercy" (Joel 2:12-13).

”For God made not death, neither hath He pleasure in the destruction of the living; for He created aIl things that they might have their being, and the generations of the world were healthful; and there is no poison of destruction in them, n or the kingdom of Hades upon the earth.” Wisdom of Solomon 1:13-14.
”For God created man to be immortal and made him to be an image of His own eternity.
Nevertheless, through envy of the devil came death into the world.” Wisdom of Solomon 2:23-24.



Those who hear this with understanding can also comprehend from these words that God ’did not make death’ (Wisdom 1:13), either the soul’s or the body’s.
For when He first gave the command,
He did not say: ’in whatsoever day ye shall eat of it, die!,’ but ’In whatsoever day ye shall eat of it, ye shall surely die’ (Gen. 2:17).
Nor did He afterwards say: ’return now unto earth,’ but ”Thou shalt return’ (Gen. 3:19),

The river of FIRE

RIVER OF FIRE NOTES~

THE RIVER OF FIRE~A reply to the questions: Is God really good? Did God create hell?

CHAPTER XIV
The devil became the Prince of matter.
Athenagoras, Embassy, 24, 25. They [the demons] afterwards subdued the human race to themselves ... and ... sowed all wickedness.
Whence also the poets and mythologists, not knowing that it was the angels and those demons who had been begotten by them that did these things to men, and women, and cities, and nations which they related, ascribed them to God Himself. St. Justin Martyr Second Apology 5.
For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. I John 3:8.

aS ABOVE....
helen

[edit on 8/26/2005 by helen670]

I'll quote myself again for the benefit of the beautiful Helen670, a woman who not only believes in the bible without question but also rather skillfully avoids any difficult questions either by ignoring them totally or by quoting scripture as if it's some kind of magical defence.

I must admit I'm constantly amused by the fact that she's taken seriously.

So: "And just so you know

Quoting lines from the Bible to justify your argument dear Christians is no different from a Facist quoting from Mein Kampf to justify their Nazisum."

Do you get that...good...now come to terms with it and move on.

So then we have the other old defence " Well Jesus was mentioned in the Qu'ran" which is true and this is basically the jist of what is said:

Jesus is one in a succession of highly revered prophets, including Abraham and Moses, in the Quran. The Quran, which is broken into 114 Surahs (chapters) and verses, describes Jesus‚ miracles (5:110) and his special relationship as "the word" and "the spirit of God" (4:171). Muslims believe Christ was taken alive into heaven and will return at Judgement Day (4:159).

The Quran also tells how the Lord silenced Zechariah as a sign that his wife would have a son even in their old age (19:2). The son's name in the Quran is Yahya; in the Gospel it is John the Baptist (Luke 1:5).
Maryam (Mary) also has a special role in Islam. The Nineteenth Surah bears her name and describes how the Angel Gabriel announced her virgin birth of Jesus (19:16).

While there are some initially striking similarities between the Quran and the Bible, they are followed by some stark differences. The main difference between Christianity and Islam is the belief in Jesus' divinity. Islamic belief is that God would never take a son (19;35). The Quran states explicitly that Jesus was not the Son of God and calls against the idea of Trinity (4:171). Also significant is the Quranic claim that Jesus was not crucified and that it was only made to appear so (4:157).

The Quran also says that during his birth, Jesus talked to Mary to encourage her through the labor pains and told her to shake a palm tree to get dates for eating (19:22).

Muslims believe that God's word was given intact to Jesus and the other prophets but that the Bible has been corrupted over time, whereas the Quran has remained the true word of God.


Now the Qu'ran is a religious document and is therefore bias towards Muslims so we have to take that into consideration.

It's possible that both the Qu'ran and Bible are manufactured and not based on real events and are nothing more then a collection of stories made flesh in order to justify a religion.

It's also possible the Qu'ran mentioned Jesus in order to validate itself, add a real character to a book and people assume the other characters existed. It makes sense, the bible was seen as the absolute truth in those days and few people argued that it wasn't. Christianity was spreading and becoming more powerful so for the Writers of the Qu'ran to add Biblical characters it roots their religious document in the real world.

Despite some Islamist claim to the contary the earliest known copy of the Qu'ran in existence is dated 750AD....a long time after the first bibles started to appear.

But once again we are dealing with religious documents BIAS documents and we have no valid evidence from impartial sources that any of these characters really existed and that's the absolute fact of the matter.

Millions of people have fought, died, killed and murdered in the name of these Documents and yet none of them are based on any real or tangeable evidence.

What religion does is give people an excuse to kill each other, the rich wanted land and wealth and needed to give the poor a reason to fight and most probably die in order get them that land and wealth so a cause was created, a good V evil senario.

Now I'm not saying that the basic message of Christianity isn't good...it is...but if people need to use a supposed Son of God as a guideline and cannot figure out whats right and wrong for themselves I find it very difficult to take them seriously.

" Do unto other as you would have them do unto you" is not Christianity, It's common sense.

Simply having faith is not enough and yet people pull that out of the hat all time, "I don't care if you think I'm wrong I have faith", "So that verse in the bible isn't true but the rest is and how do I know?..because i have faith"

If you proved without a shadow of a doubt that the Bible was complete hogwash and that Jesus wasn't the Son of God a high percentage of Christians would still believe he was and why?....because they have Faith

If they were transported back in time and saw it for themselves they wouldn't beleive it...it would probably be the work of Satan or something.

Never underestimate the power of dellusion and ignorance, it's lasted 2000 years so far and hopefully, HOPEFULLY, the cracks are starting to become wider and impossible to ignore.







[edit on 26-8-2005 by BobDylan]

No matter the questions, or the contradictions I hear about in the bible, my grandfather coming to my mother in her dream will always keep me believing.

One can believe without being spoiled by the writings and teachings of man.

The “thousand years” means a whole period. One thousand is a round number: 10x10x10 in symbolical language means the fullness of time between the First Coming and the Second Coming of Christ.

So in review you are saying that the second coming of Christ happened approximately 1000AD? That is what you post implies. Confusion reigns!!!

No very few Christians believe he is just a 'son'. As the Bible so straightforwardly says.....

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

John 8:57 Then the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?"
Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."

So my friend why did Jesus continually speak of GOD as "father". You are saying that he often talked to himself? Jesus was a MAN that had great love of GOD. He did a lot of studying amongst the Rabbis while growing up. If he was GOD would such studying have been necessary-wouldn't he already know all that he asked and was taught? Doesn't add up.

There is an old Billy Preston song titled: "Here We Go Round In Circles"


John 14:10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.

John 17:11 "Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.

Well Done BobDylan couldn't have said it better myself, one thing that gets me is why these people rise to the challenge anyway when they have FAITH and what we say shouldn't matter because they're right and we're wrong. LOL

Also Helen you say Satan can take any shape or form to trick us. It is therefore possible that your belief in Christianity was a trick by Satan to get you'se to worship him instead of the real God. That you cannot deny, but then again you will give us some so called scriptural evidence to prove Im wrong.

Look don't get me wrong I would love for your god to exist I really would ( I think it would be cool) but the picture portrayed by christians is not the same picture I see with the same available evidence.

G

Shihulud? (sorry,forgot name)

What excatly is it that the Christians portray?

Jesus Christ set an example.......as for what each individual does is up to them......each will be rewarded in judgement.

As a Christian, I know I am not perfect.....NO ONE IS!

To be perfect we must keep our lives as Jesus Taught....this is very hard.

Jesus Christ Himself said.....the SOUL is willing , but the FLESH is weak!
This means ....Though Christ was God and took the Form of MAN(Son of God)His divine nature was willing(Father)But His Human nature(Son of God...WORD) was weak because He was in the form of man...Man has a weakness in wordly affairs(Jesus Christ did not!.......He said....MY KINGDOM IS NOT OF THIS WORLD)But He understood that man in his Corrupted nature can overcome the FLESH by prayer as He taught ........''Go and teach all nations, BABTISING them in the Father,Son and Holy Spirit......He gave a Command to GO FORTH!
He did not say.....'' If you want,go forth''!
BUT

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost"
(Matthew 28:19)

So , we have the "the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God" (I Corinthians 4:1).....who are the Apostles.
As St. Paul put it in Galatians 3:27, "for as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ..."
This means, that we are ''BORN AGAIN'' with Christ........We have a NEW BODY .....we DIE in Babtism (water is very symbolic,as was in the Old Testament)and come out with a NEW BODY .....Christian .


quote///
"Then said Jesus to them again, 'Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.' And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, 'Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit they are remitted unto them; and whose so ever sins ye retain, they are retained.' "
John 20:21-23

Jesus Christ BREATHED ON THEM , He gave the HOLY SPIRIT of the NEW COVENANT....Jesus Christ accomplished His mission on what He had to do.
For Jesus Christ to BREATH on them and give them the HOLY SPIRIT as He did, He could notbe just a MAN.....He was GOD.

"Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you."
John 15:16
and carried on by His Apostles:

"Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood."
St. Paul, Acts 20:28
He chose 12 Apostles to go out and do as He did.......(12 tribes of Israel?as was in the Old Testament)
also,

In the Apocalypse, concerning the city coming down from heaven it is said: And the wall of the city bad twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve Apostles of the Lamb (Apoc. 21:14).

When the first Christian community began, "they continued steadfastly in the Apostles' doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread (Communion), and in prayers" (Act 2:42).

From Jerusalem, the faith in Christ spread throughout Judea, to Samaria (Acts 8), to Antioch and the Gentiles (Acts 13), where we find new converts and new churches throughout Asia Minor and other countries of the Roman Empire.

From the pages of the Epistles and the book of Acts, we learn that the Church was not simply another organization in Roman society. The Lord Jesus Christ had given the promise of the Holy Spirit "will guide you into all truth" (John 16:13). That promise was fulfilled at Pentecost, when the Church was given birth as an divine institution far above all earthly organizations. In Ephesians (Eph. 2:21) St. Paul called it "a holy temple of the Lord." The Church was a dynamic organism, the living Body of Jesus Christ. She made an indelible impact in the world, and those who became part of her were inwardly renewed.

on quote above

In Genesis we have God created man and BREATHED on him.......HOLY SPIRIT ..God said....."Let Us make man in Our own image, after Our own likeness" (Gen 1:26).

IX
helen