Jesus is not God - Here's the proof !

Originally posted by glan

Why not make love, acceptance, forgiveness, and all true positive qualities of humans as a universal religion. You can call it Humanity for Humanity.

You should get involved in the NWO

No thanks.

Read my respone to darkelf.

Maybe you'll understand where I'm coming from.

Originally posted by noosnomrm
This may be a minor point, but i thought Jesus was God's "son"-not God himself.

As for Jesus having lived, I would say yes. He is talked about in both the bible and Koran-a pretty good sign he did walk the earth. Take note, the Koran only see's Jesus as a phrophet, but still he was seen.

The Prophet Mohammed had his holy experience and passed on his teachings 500 years after Jesus was already dust. So having Jesus in the Koran proves his existance as much as having him in a modern comic book.

Originally posted by glan
I'm posting one last thing in here and I'm out... BTW this is going in both threads I'm involved in.

Matthew 10
14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

God bless all...We all have hope...God saved me

Wow, you know, for someone who is passionate about God's love and holy book, you sure do have a nice christian avatar. Upside down pentagram? Are you that oblivious to the fact it's used in the works of satanism? What gives?

[edit on 3-8-2005 by eudaimonia]

In other words we should all think the same and believe the same? how wonderfully simplistic. you will have to ask a minister or something about the holy trinity, sometimes jesus refers to himself as the son of God. Some believe he was God incarnate. but then who was he talking to on the cross whe he asked "father, why have thou forsaken me?". Im a devout christian and dont understand the holy trinity completely. In any case i find the humanistic arrogant notion of "humanity is god" offensive.

Originally posted by XphilesPhan
In other words we should all think the same and believe the same? how wonderfully simplistic

.

Did I say that? Did I say we all must think the same and believe the same, lik robots? Of course not. Read it again. Anyone can believe whatever they want, but when it comes to "my god is better than your god", then we have a major problem. There's no peace or love in that.

In any case i find the humanistic arrogant notion of "humanity is god" offensive.


Well, as a devout christian, I can see why you're offended. As for me, I keep an open mind. Personally, I think the god that's in the book of Genesis were Extra-Terrestrial beings.

Originally posted by XphilesPhan
In other words we should all think the same and believe the same? how wonderfully simplistic

. you will have to ask a minister or something about the holy trinity, sometimes jesus refers to himself as the son of God. Some believe he was God incarnate. but then who was he talking to on the cross whe he asked "father, why have thou forsaken me?". Im a devout christian and dont understand the holy trinity completely. In any case i find the humanistic arrogant notion of "humanity is god" offensive.

NO WAY...Don't think "simplistic" think for your own, don't be easily deceived do your research, and find out for YOURSELF! Many people post things on here and do the science thing, or the DOUBTING THOMAS THING. Find out for yourself man I did...I promise if you search you WILL find the truth.

1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost [NKJV: Holy Spirit]: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Originally posted by eudaimonia
I was speaking as an example, an idea. Not..strictly a religion, but make it seem as it was. if we were living in a utopia world, we would have no use for religion of any kind but instead have a universal common accepted thought that ties with all humans. That would include all those nice qualities we all possess. No god connection, no creation theories, no armageddon to influence the consciousness of humanity. We would be thinking for ourselves, helping others think for themselves through our own ingenuity and compassion.

IMHO there is a need inside of each of us to be in contact with something greater than ourselves. It is the thing that keeps us humble. Some find God within and others find God without. Some find their God in science while other find it in more esoteric places. It is the place where we look to find answers to questions that puzzel us. Your utopia sounds like a nice place, unfortunately, it would not last very long. Someone would find a way to exploit it. That is just the way we humans are.

Just for clarification on the refrences that were used to indicate the meaning of morning star in isaiah 14:12 and revelations 2:28-29.

they do not indicate what you say they do.

It is a misinterpretation amongst alot of people..christians included that the refrence in isaiah about the morning star is refrence to the fall of satan.

Taken from the actual footnotes in my bible. NIV version, i also looked at the footnotes in the KJV and it said the same thing: the refrence in isaiah 14:12 is talking about: "Morning star, son of the dawn are names used to worship the kings of assyria and babylon. More likely it means that they will fade like the morning star when the sun comes"

it further states that " While satan does fit in verses 14:12 characteristically he does not fit well with the rest of the chapter. this is more likely in refrence to Sennacherib or Nebuchadnezzar, kings with supreme power whose people revered them as gods. These kings wanted to rule the world. It is more likely that this is a direct reference to Nebuchadnezzar however because babylon is pictured as the seat of evil in revelation 17 & 18. Pride was satans sin as well as babylons."

So morning star in that chapter does not refer to satan himself so say biblical scholars.

as for revelation 2:28-29 means (again taken directly from footnotes in the bible underneath the text) "Christ is called the morning star in 2:28, 22:16, and 2 Peter 1:19. A morning star appears just before dawn when the night is coldest and darkest. when the world is at its bleakest point, Christ will burst onto the scene, exposing evil with his light of truth bringing his promised reward."

i double checked this with my professor who has 30 years experience in ancient greek and hebrew language and teaches theology at my college. (no its not a christian college) i ran it by him and asked him and he agreed with the footnotes. it is a common mistake in isaiah for people to assume it is satan. because people get caught up in the whole "fall" reference.

so i just wanted to clear that misinterpreation up.

as far as christians thinking Jesus is God, some do, some dont. meaning, some believe in the concept of the trinity and others do not. I myself am christian and do believe he is the Son of God, and divine and agree with the concept of the trinity. but that is my personal belief.

Hope i was able to contribute some

Kind Regards,
DigitalGirl

i hang my head for those championing this 'beast' movie. 060606 will be my 22nd birthday. i wont be celebrating at the movies - thats for sure.

anybody who thinks some drivel of an independent film can discredit 2000 plus years of testimony -you need to go back to watching cartoons.

i fear for the soul of the director. he has been decieved, and he is helping spread deception.


Christ will return, and shame will be felt.

edit:

Well, as a devout christian, I can see why you're offended. As for me, I keep an open mind. Personally, I think the god that's in the book of Genesis were Extra-Terrestrial beings.

yeah and cloning is the answer to immortality right? bah. eudaimonia, Rael is a false prophet, Im sorry you followed that line of thought. now you openly discredit the son of God with the promotion of a FILM?!!

trust me, spirituality is not found within the pixles. good story, good plot, good conspiracy to fall asleep to at night? sure, but its still brain feed. Spirituality requires more than a thought expirement.

If i know anything, it is the ABSOLUTE neccessity of FAITH. eudaimonia, you're still stuck on science. understand, the 'proof' you seek does not exist except through faith. proof this proof that, yeah its fun, but no matter what answer you come to, you're still believing.

youve already established a belief that Jesus didnt exist. Then you called it proof.... uh, best of luck to you. Be true to yourself, you'll know when you're being lied to.

also, wanna reconsider the title of this thread?!


[edit on 3-8-2005 by lost]

"Jesus is not God, he is the Son of God. If God is the Father, Jesus is the Son, the Son did not come before the Father but after him"...Arius 320AD

There has been fundamental disagreement in the church over this issue since the earliest of days. The adoption of the current theory of cosubstanciation was made at the Council of Nicea in 325AD under the Emperor Constantine and the prevailing opinion is that Jesus always was and is "cosubstancial" (a word not found in scripture) with God. Strange and illogical as it may seem, this remains the orthodox Christian position.

We Christians beleive that the testimony of the Gospels and that of early Christian Authors such as Bishop Eusebius of Ceserea and Flavius Josephus and the subsequent discovery of the Nag Hammadi library are a prima facea case to support the existance of a man who we now know today as Jesus Christ.

To discredit any or all of these accounts does not prove anything above and beyond the reliability of that particular account in the specific instance of it's fallibility. i.e. to draw a parrallel, it doesn't matter who shot JFK, he was still assasinated, to prove that Lee Harvey Oswald was innocent does not mean JFK is alive and well and living on a secret island in the Bahamas with Elvis.

Too often in these forums I read that because the so called 'Testimonium Flavinium' has been labelled a forgery (an accusation maybe likely but never actually proven) that therefore all of Flavius Josephus' works are discredited. This disputed single paragraph reference to Jesus sits amongst thousands of undisputed paragraphs in the pages of the histories of Flavius Josephus ('War' and 'Antiquities' of the Jews), and does not constitute the only reference to Jesus anyway.

Furthermore are typically mindless accusations against Eusebius that because he was a Christian his works must be based on the Gospels and therefore unreliable, anyone who has taken the trouble to wade through the hundreds of pages of Eusebius' histories will know that this most scholarly of clerics makes reference to many different sources outside of the Gospels, many of which cannot be disproven because they no longer exist anyway.

Furthermore if Jesus did not exist, does this mean his family did not exist? that Joseph and his brother Cleopas of the house of David, and Mary the Hasamonean and Jesus brother James (first bishop of Jerusalem) did not exist, and why stop there why not also for the sake of expediency kill off his cousin Simeon (son of Cleopas, 2nd bishop of Jerusalem) and his grandparents Anna and Joachim.

I say either accept that a man lived who we today call Jesus or prove that he didn't, but what you will find time and time again on this site is that the same group of hard line Orthodox Jews will trot out the same list of books and articles to cite a lack of evidence of a historical Jesus.

Anyone with any knowledge of the circumstances of Judea in the times of Jesus whatsoever will know that this about is as hard to do as shooting ducks in a barrell. Members of my family grew up in a camp under the Nazis' in Poland, they have no birth certificates and cannot prove they were born, but will still be at my place on Sunday for a roast dinner, every year the countries of the west take in thousands of refugees in similar circumstances.

This the information age, the age in which a single copy of a modern day newspaper contains as much information as a person in the 19th century would be privvy to in their whole lives, and yet to this day hundreds of thousands of peoples all over the world have had their identities destroyed by oppressive regimes. We know this is the case with Judea, that the Emperor Vespasian specifically decreed that all the Judean records should be destroyed, yet time and again this is gleefully acknowledged by the anti Jesus league, to somehow be proof that Jesus didn't exist (go figure).

We Christians have faith in the existance of Jesus Christ so for us the onus of the burden of proof rests with the accuser...don't ask us to prove that Jesus existed...you prove that he didn't...

I think it's interesting to see many use this one verse to say that Jesus was God in the flesh:

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

Could he have meant the following:

"I am the WAY to be, I tell you the TRUTH, and you shall have eternal LIFE. No one comes to the Father except by being like Me"?

We all know that there are many misinterpretations. This could well have been one of them. No?

People invent religions to explain the unknown.

It helps ease their mortal fears of the future. It assists in their decision-making. Since we are innately social beings we are always concerned about what other people think.

This concept of "God" is really the collective will of the entire population of Earth, and all of the natural forces due to physics, biology, and so on.

Due to it's inherent complexity, having a single word like God is convenient so that we may make decisions based on what our interpretation of "God's Will" might be at any given time. This gives us strength of spirit because (in theory) we can feel more righteous about our decisions than the average joe might.

Jesus was a man of the people. He had developed a sense of understanding of his own people that went farther than any man before him. Because of his immense popularity, and purported ability to heal, he was considered a step above other people.

But in fact, he was just a very charismatic person. Charismatic people have the ability to draw in others into their circle, and share certain beliefs that can in fact make people feel more at ease. Feeling more at ease can help with sickness, and due to the limited medical technology at the time it's quite conceivable that his raw confidence was so inspiring that he was indeed a sort of healer.

Is Jesus God? No of course not, he did not represent the collective will of ALL of humanity. Clearly there were others that felt differently.

Many people have described him as the son of God, to attempt to make his mortal life seem more than mortal. But really he was a man, like all other men, that happened to posses extremely strong senses of empathy and compassion.

But, we are all sons (and daughters) of God. Does that mean we are all like Jesus? Yes, we are all part of God's Kingdom. But Jesus went farther in developing innate understanding of the human spirit, than anyone had before him.

Here we are arguing the divinity of Christ, even amongst believers and it seems we have lost the reason He came.

He specifically stated "I AM". Even the Jews got upset at that for they knew what he meant.

H2O (Water, ICE, Vapor) and yet are they the same thing?

What a fool.......666 is not the mark of the beast, it's 616.

Son of Man sacrificed his life for you, yet you bash him as Lucifer the power of manipulation. I feel disgusted at this thread.

Maybe Lucifer has tricked you himself into such a lie to bring you down from the divine truth?

[edit on 3-8-2005 by phantomviewer]

Originally posted by Valerina
I think it's interesting to see many use this one verse to say that Jesus was God in the flesh:

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

Could he have meant the following:

"I am the WAY to be, I tell you the TRUTH, and you shall have eternal LIFE. No one comes to the Father except by being like Me"?

We all know that there are many misinterpretations. This could well have been one of them. No?

The only problem I see with this is that you're changing what is written. This one problem is a very big problem. If we change what is written, then there is no truth. So to answer your question, No. If I changed: "Thou shall not" to "Thou really shouldn't..." then there will be Hell to pay. Pun intended, but not really.

Pray, train, study,
God bless

[edit on 3-8-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by phantomviewer
What a fool.......

Hey now, that's not nice.

Originally posted by phantomviewer
666 is not the mark of the beast, it's 616.

Who knows really, it's still uncertain last new article I read.

Originally posted by phantomviewer
Son of Man sacrificed his life for you, yet you bash him as Lucifer the power of manipulation. I feel disgusted at this thread.

I know how you feel. I started having some bad memories come back myself. Anyhow, take a moment's reset away, be calm, and approach with a caring heart.

Originally posted by phantomviewer
Maybe Lucifer has tricked you himself into such a lie to bring you down from the divine truth?

Who knows? I don't think the accusation is much help though.

Pray, train, study,
God bless.

[edit on 3-8-2005 by saint4God]

Very interesting read Flange Gasket, thanks.

So, who are we addressing here?

Christians - The answer is right in front of you in the Book. Read all four gospels again. Write down the number of times Jesus explains who he is. Then, right down how Jesus interacts with God. What you'll get is your answer. That's right shaky Christians, it's homework time . He didn't give you a book to let you decide over discussion board banter. You're not alone though, I've been told I've got a lot of homework to do myself.

Non-Christians - You're not going to get 'proof' one way or another on this thread. Sorry but it's just not that easy. If you want to know if Jesus is God's biological son, you're gonna to have to ask God. Reading the gospels is encouraged but if you're convinced already that he's not, it probably won't do much good.

For those of you saying the OP is bashing religion don't get your panties in a bunch, this is a post with information. Just because you do not like the information here does not mean he is bashing anything. Lets get a grip shall we?

[edit on 3-8-2005 by d1k]

I think religion itself is great probaly one of the best inventions by man, it gives people hope and it helps people except death. Personaly i think the book is a book of morals. I believe Jesus was real but he was probaly a opium addict sheepman .I respect the man for dying for what he believed in but i think when we die your dead..... just except it.

Philosophy in religion

I believe and have come to understand that the void, is the emptiness, that is universal existence, that is all (All dimensions time space etc), and all is god. God is in each one of us as a whole with the universal existence. God is not a little fairy light that floats down from space into our backyard and breathes happiness on us, but that's an opinion, some say he's an eight legged man. If god is one person, or a single, than he is obviously not the universal existence, and so not god at all.

There is a reason why in the bible it says to fear the lord and to love him, because if he is everything in everything and on every plane of existence as a whole, than he is suffering and conditioning. And the reason I say that we will always be suffering is because we will always be changing, and so conditioning to new environments, and so suffering. Such as when you lose your house or the reaper takes your car, or when a loved one dies, you have to change and condition.

So everything is god all formed into one. Jesus was a part of god, Buddha was a part of god, although Jesus probably had an excessive connection to the universal existence and meditated often to experience the void, that is how he could walk on water, but I do not believe that he cured blindness, that was a metaphor fore clearing the blindness of the mind and hart, he told them that it was all right to be blind. He was gods child as we all are, he understood though.

Our soul is the energy in which passes unending from body to body like an unending battery. Ones in the flashlight and turned on, in begins to die.

And this so called heaven is possibly a state of mind, as all things revolve around the mind and you can change perspective immensely, everything is option and opinion.

Thank you for reading. The Surrealist