Bush Advocates Teaching ID in Schools

Intelligent Design does not equal Creationism. Fin.

Why can't these teachers at least point out the flaws of ID and then refer the students to the parents, their religious leaders, heck even the library to learn more on the subject

As of right now the city that I live in only teaches evolution in it's public schools. They also teach homosexuality as not only an alternate lifestyle, but a safe alternative to teenage pregnancy. They teach so many things that my wife and I do not want being taught to our children. We cannot afford to send them to private schools where they can get the education that we approve of so we homeschool them. In the past five years in my city there have been 16 private schools built. That's on top of the nearly 20 already there. In a city with a million or so people, that's a lot of parents that do not agree with the public school system, yet it is not changing. It is just losing students and parents as well.
I am very proud of our President for standing for something. I'll support him all the way.

Originally posted by deesw
As of right now the city that I live in only teaches evolution in it's public schools. They also teach homosexuality as not only an alternate lifestyle, but a safe alternative to teenage pregnancy.

Can you actually back this up with something other than your own homophobia? I can't imagine 'how to become a homosexual' is part of a school ciriculum.

riley ask and you shall receive
Battle Brews over Gay-oriented School Library Books

Can you actually back this up with something other than your own homophobia? I can't imagine 'how to become a homosexual' is part of a school ciriculum

Yeah, tell ya what riley, I'll mail you one of their health books just give me your address.
Better yet check out planned parenthood's website. There are links to this site in both the health and social studies books.

Yeah, tell ya what riley, I'll mail you one of their health books just give me your address.

My address? I'll pass on that thanks.
Does it encourage kids to become gay or just tell them it's okay if they are? If a kid is gay no amount of pretending they are not will change them. If your kids went to school with someone who was gay.. would you rather them accept them or gay bash them?
I did hear about one of the US [bush] education campaigns. I think it involved teaching kids that masturbation causes pregnancy, most gay kids have got aids and it can be contracted through sweat and condoms don't work. You're worried about 'gayness' being taught [ie. not being condemned] when they're being taught this total bs anyway that could put them at greater risk?

kenshiro2012,
A book in a library is a little different from a text book in a class room.. it is not teaching 'gayness'.. I'm guessing they created the books to give kids with same sex parents something to identify with.. the link you provided though showed a very one sided position on the book without specifics [apart from the title]. I remember christian groups having a problem with a telly tubby holding a handbag so I don't know how valid their point is.
I do understand however that this would confuse alot of kids if conservative parents have not educated them which would put them in the position of having to explain what 'same sex' means so it's a difficult issue. Perhaps they should only be available on request or something until society is more tolerent.. or leave it up to the school to decide whether or not to stock them.

In regard to intelligent design.. science is about proven facts. Science class is about teaching kids those facts.. any possible existence of an intelligent designer has not been proven a fact [and never will be].. so it should not be taught.. otherwise it's called 'blind faith' which has no place near science.
And before everyone jumps up and down saying evolution hasn't been proven fact.. it basically has been. It has a thousand facts supporting it, ID has none.

[edit on 8-8-2005 by riley]

riley

In regard to intelligent design.. science is about proven facts. Science class is about teaching kids those facts.. any possible existence of an intelligent designer has not been proven a fact [and never will be].. so it should not be taught.. otherwise it's called 'blind faith' which has no place near science.

I agree with you on this point. ID as well as creationism should not be taught in the classroom. I do disagree though with what seems to be the present tact that our educational system is taking on this subject. Instead on just not teaching creationism or ID, educators find that even having students asking questions on the subject as being "confrontational". Instead of providing the students with direction as to where they (the students) should go to gain the answers to their questions, such as libraries, parents, etc. Or what I love even better...... when there is a question from a student that is based on "bad science" why are the educators refusing to teach the students why such and such question is incorect and teaching the students the proper methods of scintific investigation / methods.
As Nygdan stated, if our students were provided a solid education in the sciences, then such questions would not arise in the classroom, unfortunately, our children do not seem to be getting this basic level of education or else they would be able to answer the questions themselves.

Originally posted by kenshiro2012
As Nygdan stated, if our students were provided a solid education in the sciences, then such questions would not arise in the classroom, unfortunately, our children do not seem to be getting this basic level of education or else they would be able to answer the questions themselves.

I completely agree with everything you've said.. and I think thats probably the first time I've ever typed that in this forum. Kids do need to be taught how to find answers themselves.. and be encouraged to come up with their own original concepts. In the absence of facts.. "I don't know" is much better than what is in reality is a guess. It wouldn't be very healthy to tell the future astro phycisists of the world that "We already have the all the answers so don't bother looking." For instance the big bang is still a beautiful mystery.. ID kind of kills it.

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Kentucky building 25 million dollar Creation museum

While it may be suitable for creationism to be conserved in a museum [a place for old out-dated things] You have to wonder what is the effect of religious organization pumping millions [billions?] of dollars into Creationism & ID pseudoscience, campaign contributions, lawsuits, etc.

What are the effects when Religious ignorance becomes a big economic engine?
Forget Pentagon disinformation,
now you have Evangelical disinformation.

What are the effects on science supporters of truth and enlightenment when they have to burn up time and energy overcoming dogmatic ignorance?

It seems to me what energy is used trying fend off attacks of religious ignorance is no longer available to do and fund the work of constructive, progressive science.

I realize that much of human progress comes from creative engineering, but that has to and does work conjuctively with science.

While intellectually acute criticisms of Evolution are actually constructive, this kind of passionate mud minded assaults on the acomplishments of science don't bode well for the progess of the US.

I think nations, groups or individuals that passionately embrace the challenge of discovering the unknown truths of the Universe and their creative uses will inevitably have an advantage over others that cling to ignorance.
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so I really don't think we need to start adding a bunch of religious garbage to the mix...

that is what churches are for...

If we cross that line in schools, then as slank, and james the lesser stated...might as well get ready for every lame brained hogwash that comes down the mountain...

"Kids...we are going to study a new idea today... we are all made of fudge... with pecans...
"STOP EATING YOUR CLASSMATES"

where would it end...

what should be taught?
the best science we have... and that is the best we can do...

LazarusTheLong,
We are in agreement.
Creationism as well as ID should not be taught in schools.
The difference between what you are saying and what I have been saying as well as what I beleive Bush was saying was that there should be some kind of acknowledgement of alternate "theories". I believe that if / when a student asks a question then the teacher should either direct the student as to where they should go to get the answers to their questions> When the question is based off of "bad" science, which many educators and people here have cited, then the teachers should address the question from the scientific viewpoint. Explain why such a question is wrong using the scientific methods. Teach the students how to properly use scientific methodology to answer the questions themselves.

As I stated earlier, if the students had a proper understanding of the basics of science then the students would be better able to acknowledge themselves why a question / assumption is incorrect.
Unfortunately, in the classrooms today, it is thought to be better not to respond in any fashion to such questions.
As for JTL's "additions..... well if he / she is ever able to wash the vitrol from their statements on any subject that deals with religion, I will give the comments consideration for whatever merit that they may have. Until then well .....

In the UK (Scotland) I learned about creationism, Muslim beliefs, some Hinduism and a load of other stuff in RMPS.

Its very simple teach people about religion in a religion class. It would also stop a lot of the anti Muslim bigotry that is flying around due to lack of understanding (that declaration of reformation is looking less like a joke all the time).

And why cant people except that to be a scientific theory some thing needs to have real evidence supporting it. A scientific theory is not just any crack pot notion that pops in to some bodies head.

[edit on 8-8-2005 by Elfwood]

When I was a kid (shush, it wasn't that long ago...), my junior school (grade school) had assembly every morning which included The Lord's Prayer, and hymns.

It wasn't a private or religious school - just your generic, average state-funded school.

It was considered "the norm", and many of our parents simply wouldn't have known how to oppose it even if they'd had the desire to do so.

Now when I look back, and I remember that we were taught that God created the world, with ID as part of the mix, and that in High School we were taught St Paul's Gospel as part of the compulsory Religious Education class (along with "Contemporary Issues", with an accompanying Christian text book), I feel...quite disgusted.

Because these schools weren't privately funded, and they weren't parochial schools. Just regular, normal schools governed and funded by the state (England) - and as such, they had/have absolutely no business in promoting a religiously biased curriculum; not least one that includes as standard the idea of ID without touching on the alternative theories.

Alas, we don't have a true separation of Church and State in England.

Creationism as well as ID should not be taught in schools

Then neither should the UNPROVEN THEORY of EVOLUTION.

Originally posted by deesw

Then neither should the UNPROVEN THEORY of EVOLUTION.

Hmmm. One has mountains (no pun intended) of scientific evidence to support it, the other does not. But that's besides the point, really.

I'm all for teaching both theories - creation and evolution - if that's what it will take to appease both the religious right and the scientific community...but when it comes to ID, that's a different matter, and it has absolutely no place in a non-parochial or non-private school.

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the point is that ID and Creationism are purely theory [mythology] with no facts to back them up and bring them up to the standard of being potential science.

Evolution is a theory that was arrived at After looking at the FACTs.
The fossil record supports evolution.
Genetics, DNA, biology all support evolution.
It is feasible within the realms of physics and chemistry.
That is why it measures up to a credible scientific theory and can [and almost certainly should] be taught in science classes.

If Evolution theory has to share time with every 'pie in the sky' theory there will be no time for actual factual learning.

Bush is an idiot.

Anyone who cannot see the difference between factually grounded scientific theories and fantasy notion theories obviously doesn't understand either science or the importance of FACTs.
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I bet if we started teaching "creation science" and "intelligent design" in science classes there would be a lot FEWER people who would vote Republican in the future. So, maybe it's a good idea, after all!

Just to update the thread

The real impact of President Bush weighing in on the national debate over how to teach the origins of life may be felt in the classroom, where much of the anti-evolutionary lobbying is done under the radar.
The White House entered one of the country's most politically charged red- and-blue battles last week when Bush was asked at a news conference about his views on evolution and intelligent design -- a critique that says Charles Darwin's natural selection theory doesn't explain some features of the natural world.

Bush pushes very hot button

What I find interesting on this article is that there has been a slight editing of what Bush said.
In the origional article that I posted Bush states:

"I think that part of education is to expose people to different schools of thought," Mr. Bush said. "You're asking me whether or not people ought to be exposed to different ideas, the answer is yes."

In the new article Bush now supposedly stated:

"I felt like both sides ought to be properly taught," Bush said. "I think that part of education is to expose people to different schools of thought."

Slight difference there ! Completely changes the entire meaning of his statement. I wounder which is ture?
The Following is from Yahoo ? USA Today

'Intelligent design' smacks of creationism by another name

Now, activists in dozens of states and school districts are pushing to require the teaching of what they call "intelligent design," which ascribes creation to a vaguely undefined cosmic force that sounds a great deal like the God of Genesis but usually isn't named as such.
Kansas' Board of Education is busy this summer rewriting the state's biology curriculum standards to accommodate the demands of intelligent-design advocates. Ohio took similar action last year. School districts in Wisconsin, Pennsylvania and elsewhere are requiring the teaching of what they call alternative theories of evolution, regardless of whether they have scientific validity.

I definately do not agree with what the Kansas Board of Education is doing here!

I do not understand how any of you think that any evidence for evolution is credible. There has been no evidence proven. Your so-called missing link that was discovered a few years back was a load of crap. It's bones were found scattered over a twenty mile radius. How does that prove crap? I'll grant you that creationism has not been proven. Neither has evolution, and it is no closer to being so, but if it helps any of you to believe that your ancient cousins were monkey's, then by all means do so. I was created in the image of God, not an ape. I refuse to believe that I am an accident. That is precisely what evolution teaches.

JUMP OFF THE EMPIRE STATE BUILDING TO PROVE THE THEORY OF GRAVITY IS WRONG!!!!

Oh wait you don't cause your a hypocrit, you go "THEORY!! KILL KILL KILL!" Then you hear gravity is a theory and it's all "Of course it's a theory, gravity is correct."