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LL-3 FSW, Russian Foward swept wing before X-29

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posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 09:47 PM
It has come to my attention(which I have been previously unaware of) that the LL-3 was the foward swept wing test bed before the X-29.

Doing research on the S-32, this is what I have found, the FSW LL-3 was first built in the early 1970's and influenced much of the S-32 experimental design, as well as the Su-27 has influenced the S-32 design.

However doing a search on the LL-3 was extremely difficult for me because every time I would find something, the S-32/S-37/Su-47 would be talked about instead of the LL-3.

What I want to know is, does anyone have any real information on the LL-3?

Shattered OUT...

posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 10:51 PM
ShatteredSkies, found a few of use.

One mention here:

First stop would have too be the "Osprey Encyclopedia of Russian Aircraft 1875-1995" by Bill Gunston. According to it, the Tsybin LL gliders were flown with one PRD-1500 rocket motor. The PRD-1500 was a solid fueled rocket engine by I.I.Kartukov in time period 1945-49. Rated at 1.5 Tonnes at sealevel for 10 secs. The LL-1 had straight wings, reached 1050 KPH, the LL-2 had swept wings but was not completed, the LL-3 had 40 degree forward swept wings, reached a max speed of 1200 kph Mach 0.97.

Russian Aviation FAQ

Another stating that the LL-3 was a rocket-powered glider:

One programme began in 1947 was the LL-3 rocket-powered glider, which was built with an FSW that had a 40 sweep. This provided an enormous amount of data on how FSWs performed. However, while several designs experimented with FSWs from the 1940s, all of these projects encountered problems due to wing divergence caused by the greater speeds made possible by the jet engine's arrival. Wing divergence is associated with loads on the wing of an FSW-designed aircraft encountered at speeds exceeding 0.9 Mach. Whereas an aft swept wing bends under a load and twists the leading edge downward, resulting in a reduction in the angle of attack capability and wing load, an FSW twists its leading edge upward, increasing its angle of attack and load. Depending on a number of factors, including speed and the sweep degree of the forward wing, the wing will fail and twist off the aircraft.

Russian aspirations airborne with Sukhoi's Golden Eagle

And this one with a history of German Ju 287 V1,2,3 variations with the LL-3 being similiar to the 1946 program, Bell X-1 (FSW), with picture of LL-3:

Soviet forward-swept-wing transonic LL-3 rocket plane, circa 1947, designed by P V Tsybin. It was similar to the US Bell X-1

Ju 287 V1 in flight near Brandis

Nazi UFO's , The Nazi and Hitler UFO Project and History of German and U.S.A. UFO's and Flying Saucers

So in all respects, credits go to the Germans.


[edit on 30-7-2005 by Seekerof]

posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 11:39 PM

posted on Jul, 31 2005 @ 05:23 AM
There is one glaring error on that link. It states that the Rockwell Sabrebat became the basis for the X-29 when in fact the Grumman X-29, GD F-16FSW and Rockwell Sabrebat were all competing designs for the same contract.

Love the piccies though

posted on Jul, 31 2005 @ 08:01 AM
Hmm Seekrof, very interesting, I haven't come up with information about the Germans coming up with FSW aircraft.

Kudos to you for discovering that!

Guess it was another one of their crazy ideas that never really reached the factory lines.

Shattered OUT...

posted on Jul, 31 2005 @ 11:44 AM
Germany was the source of the flying wing, the forward swept wing and the delta wing.

To add to this they also pioneered in anti-gravity propulsion and had working prototypes of flying saucers.

Its a pity that they lost all their tech and scientists who worked on them.

The world owes a lot (almost everything) to Germany and its great scientists.

I hope Germany regains its rightful place as the world leader in pioneering technologies soon.....and hopefully it will get more credit for it.

[edit on 31-7-2005 by Stealth Spy]

posted on Jul, 31 2005 @ 12:06 PM
Oh, good to know...

posted on Jul, 31 2005 @ 02:08 PM
Stealth, We're here to talk about the FSW, not anything else, so please don't bring in Delta wings, anti-grav, and other things into the conversation that obviously may be disputable.

But you're right, Germany has invented many great things, even though some of them was invented for all the wrong reasons, but today is used for good reasons, and that is their legacy, their pioneered technologies are now used for the betterment, at least, on the most part.

And I am not disputing the fact that Germany made the FSW, I just didn't know that before.

Shattered OUT...

posted on Jul, 31 2005 @ 02:39 PM
Alright we'll stick to Forward Swept wings for now. Some light on its German

Most of it was stolen by the USSR.

here are some GREAT links on Nazi FSW aircrafts

One of the strangest Luftwaffe aircraft to ever claw it's way into the air was the Junkers Ju 287. Begun in early 1943, the Ju 287 incorporated many advanced aerodynamic concepts, the most striking being the swept forward wings. This design feature was deemed radical enough to warrent the construction of a testbed aircraft, pictured above. This testbed flew on August 16, 1944. The aircraft was a Frankenstien's monster, pieced together from several diffent aircraft. Included were the nosewheels from two B-24 Liberators, the fuselage of an He 177, mainwheels off a Ju 352, and the tail was constructed of Ju 388 parts. 17 test flights proved the concept to have excellent handling characteristics and would have proven a problem had not the allies overrun the testing airfield, capturing the the V1 and the nearly complete V2. The V2 was flown by the Soviet Union in 1947. The V3 failed to get off the drawing board and would have had several improvements.

Type: Heavy Bomber
Origin: Junkers Flugzeug und Motorenwerks AG
Model: V1 to V3
Crew: V3: Three
First Flight:
Ju 287 V1: August 16, 1944 in Germany
Ju 287 V2: 1947 by Soviet Union
Number of Flights: V1: 17
Number Produced: 2, (V3) not completed

Ju 287 V1 & V2:
Model: Junkers Jumo 004
Type: Turbojets
Number: Four Thrust: 1,980lb (900kg)
Note: Four 2,645lb (1,200kg) thrust Walter 501 takeoff
assistance rockets also mounted.

Ju 287 V3:
Model: BMW 003A
Type: Turbojets
Number: Six Thrust: 1,760lb (800kg)

Span: 65 ft. 11¾ in. (20.11m)
Ju 287 V1: 60 ft. 0½ in. (18.30m)
Height: N/A
Wing Area: N/A

Empty: 12,510kg
Loaded: 20,000kg

Maximum speed:
Ju 287 V1: 560km/h (348mph)
Ju 287 V3: 865kn/h (537mph)
Range with max. bombs (est.):
Ju 287 V3: 1585km (985 miles)

Two MG 131 in remote control tail barbette.

Bombs: Ju 287 V3
8,818 lb. (4000 kg)

[edit on 31-7-2005 by Stealth Spy]

[edit on 31-7-2005 by Stealth Spy]

posted on Jul, 31 2005 @ 02:47 PM
Picture of first flight in Eastern Germany

Being built for the Soviets by captured German scientists

I would like to bring out things on the delta wing as well, but will have to restrain myself as it is beyond the scope of the thread

posted on Jul, 31 2005 @ 02:52 PM
In 1964, the German airplane manufacturer Hamburger Flugzeugbau built the HFB-320 business jet with forward-swept wings. This design allowed the wings to be mounted behind the passenger cabin along the sides of the fuselage. Only 50 of the aircraft were manufactured and it remains the only aircraft with forward-swept wings to enter actual production.


posted on Jul, 31 2005 @ 04:14 PM
I'm surprised by the apparent furore these 'revelations' of German FSW work have caused. I thought they were common knowledge, if I'd known I could have told you this months ago

As you can see from the pictures in the posts from stealth Spy (going all pro Nazi again, will you never learn?
) the Ju-287's chances of seeing service were severely hampered by the lack of suitable engines, forcing Junkeers to stick engines seemingly all over it.

However it was always intended that the design would evolve into a twin jet bomber which would put it into the Canberra class and this development was actually flown in the USSR where it was produced by the original German design team, here's the photo;

It was not selected for service though basically because Stalin would not have the victorious Soviet pilots flying knocked off German designs.

[edit on 31-7-2005 by waynos]

posted on Aug, 1 2005 @ 05:04 AM
Just to say that LL-3 had movable wings, which could turn to forward swept position. They could also move up and down.

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