Evolutionst and Creationst Need Understanding

Christ says 'Peter before the crows twice you will deny me thrice'.
Peter denied him at the least, Eleven (11) times before the crowed twice.

you just answered your own question. he answered the crowd twice. he didnt say he would deny in front of one person thrice. he said he would deny him three times. if he repeated it 11 times to a croud he already denied him, he was just repeating what he said.

repeating your denial to the same crowd is not denying Jesus 11 times, its denying him once.

Im not sure but I think he is counting the denials in the four books as being different.
By that logic, Jesus was born 4 times, hung on the cross 4 times, and rose from the dead 4 times.

Matthew mentions that Christ was born in Bethlehem of Judaea and immediately jumps into the wise men looking for a young child.

Mark starts with a messenger preparing the way and does not mention Christ until his 30th Birthday when John the Baptist baptizes him.

Luke has a great deal to say about the birth of both John the messenger and Christ. The sheperds came to worship the babe, Christ lying in a manager.

John begins with John the Baptist baptizing Christ, the Lamb of God.

Probably the reason only Luke mentions the birth indepth is none of the diciples were witnesses to the actual birth story. John and Peter were most definitely witnesses to Christ's statement and for the actual denials.

In Matthew Christ says 'Verily (most suredly) I say unto thee, That this night before the cock crow, (notice before the cock crow in this statement), thou shalt deny me thrice'.

Mark mentions Christ's statement as 'Verily (most suredly) I say unto thee, That this day, in the night, before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice'.

Luke states 'I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny the thou knowest me. (notice the denials before the cock crow.)

John writes 'Verily, Verily, (the stars will pass away before this does not happen), I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice. (notice the denials before the cock crow.)

Three denials had to happen prior to the cock even crowing once. Then after the cock crows once, the count appears to start with another three denials happening. Then immediately the cock crows twice. See the quote below from the Companion Bible.

The Companion Bible being the Authorized Version of 1611 and printed by The Lamp Press Ltd. London, England in the Appendixes 160 page 183, it states:
There are several facts that have to be noticed before we canarrive at a clear understanding of all the denials recorded of Peter by the four evangelists.
Consequently, in the four Gospels, there are no less than 12 denials mentioned. And, the questions are, which of these are duplicates, and which are the resulting required by the Lord's prophecy.

The Companion Bible in Appendixes 164 page 187 states:
Misled by tradition and due to the lack of scriptural knowledge on the part of mediaeval painters, it is the general belief that only two were crucified with the Lord. (note: there were four with Christ that day)

The first two were malefactors who were led with Christ and placed on either side of him at Calvary. The other two, who were thieves, were brought later. In Matthew and Mark the two thieves reviled him while in Luke only one malefactor reiled on him. The other malefactor rebuked the first and asked to be remembered in paradise which was granted by the Passover Lamb of God.

Therefore it appears that Christ was only crucified one time on a post with four others on a post each. The Romans didn't use a cross bar of wood during this period nor did they waste nails. The Romans crossed the feet and ankles using one nail and the same crossing the hands and wrists using only one nail at the top of the post. To breath, the victim would have to raise his body high enough to overcome the air supply cutoff due to the windpipe constriction by the body in the slumped mode position.

Raising the body by using the lower limbs (legs) would be extremely painful. And the process would need to be repeated quite often in order to breath. Since a Jewish religous day, an annual Sabbath/Passover, it would be a defilement to leave the bodies hanging many days as would normally be the case. The Romans were artist at cruelty in that period.

Roman orders were given to break the legs of the five victims so that they could not rise for a breath and would die of affixiation. The Romans began breaking the legs of the first two but did not break Christ leg bones. He was already dead. It is written that the bones are not to be broken on the unblimished Passover Lamb. It was a religious law and tradition of the Jews and it was prophecy.

These are all brief discussions of the topics indicated, usually with links to longer and more detailed articles. They have a citation for the above arguments in the creationist literature and give citations for the explanations in the scientific literature.

so they know that it doesnt work on those, how do they know that it works on anything else?

As stated before, Christ arose early on Sunday, April 5, Nisan 16, 33 AD. He became the King of Kings. A metamorphosis occurred in Christ that will occur in every believer that attains the highly esteemed position as a Son of God and his called his brethern.

Everyone knows John 3:16 and the gift of eternal life to those whosoever believe on him. This gift is assurred to everyone written in the Lamb's book of life. This gift will be handed out after the 1000 year millennium.

Just prior to the Millennium Kingdom the same metaphorsis will happen to the overcommers that will meet the Lord in the air at the marriage feast. These are the Sons and Daughters of God that attain immortatility as he did. It consist on a higher level than that of Life Eternal and is a characteristic of the Royal Family.

Life Eternal is the ability of the body to live forever when fed with the proper norishment and there is atmosphere to breath. They must inhabit the confines of places similar to Earth in structure.

Immortatlity has no confines and the Sons of God can work outside this Universe. They possess the power to tame a super nova, a black hole or quasars. These are things we are just now starting to understand as possessing the greatest power in the Universe.

Paul was running this race as he states. Not for Life Eternal, for he had achieved this through his belief and faith. He was running the race to immortality, to become a Son of God.

1 Corinthians 15:50 states that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Inherit means to be part of the Royal Family with immortality.
Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

What these two verses are saying is that the overcommers, the ecclesia, the ones that possess immortality as Christ does, will not have blood once the metamorphsis occurs with them. They will be changed in a twinkling of an eye to Flesh and Bone. Yet, as being like Christ, they will be able to materialize and disappear at will. This is nothing we have knowledge of nor can we wrap our arms of understanding around this observation. Yet the Bible tells the account of Christ doing this after his resurrection.

This brings me back to Creation and Evolution in the next post.

Just as the metamorphosis changed Christ's body from Flesh, Bone and Blood into Flesh and Bone. There are continual changes happening to this Universe.

To have an expanding Universe, it appears there existed a big bang. God created matter as energy in proximity to reach critcal mass and explode into the intial beginnings of the Universe. Scientists are trying to adopt theories and mathematical equations to understand this phenomnon. The theory of singularity seems to be the popular choice for now.

As the creation expanded, solar systems were formed with a star in the center and orbiting planets. These solar systems formed a bicyle wheel pattern similar in shape to a satellite picture of a hurricane. At the center of these Galaxies is probably a black hole acting as a large vacuum.

These vacuums in each Galaxy are star and planet crunchers. It look as though we may have several choices for our Sun to play out. Either the entire Solar System can be eaten by the Black Hole in the center of the Milky Way Galaxy which seems unlikely. Or, the Sun can start to enlarge taking in the planets as it begins to decay. Or, just the opposite, it explodes into a supernova.

None of these options are too appealing. We have some alternatives, if all is governed accordingly. Christ stated when he was walking on Earth, that unless he returned quickly all flesh would be destroyed. Suppose the return saves us from ourselves and the Kingdom is established.

The Bible also states that the Sun will be seven times brighter and that the moon will be as the noonday Sun of today. Plants will grow in such abundance that the sewer of seed will have to wait on the harvester to finish. The Earth is made up of two-thirds water and will be five-sevenths land at that time.

Sounds like the Earth will go through quite an evolution quickly no matter if man made or brought on by Devine Intervention. Millions of people are to die during this period. Due to man's lack of judgement, a man will be considered a rare commodity from all I read especially if the land volume is to increase.

The above is Biblical descriptions of the Millennium Kingdom. Any thoughts on after the 1000 years Kingdom? There will be Sons and Daughters of God ruling his Kingdom. The Life Enternal people will have his laws burned in the hearts. Sounds like time to explore the Universe and learn what it has and will evolve into.

ET may be out there in a far off galaxie or maybe our next door solar system. We will not know until we explore and occupy planets in a most righteous manner. We have mess up our planet pretty good, I'm sure God does not want us messing other cosmic bodies the same way. We have much to learn before we really become serious about exploring space.

The interesting thing is that we will get to learn more of the marvels of the Universe at this time. Is it expanding as we think? How did all the energy cause the big bang into creation? Where did the energy that caused it come from? Was it truely a big bang? Will we have a continual expansion of the Universe? Will it contract? Will it stop dead in its tracks and become stationary? The Earth is evolving into Christ world slowly but surely and the universe is evolving according to his wishes.

Quantum Mechanics has even brought forth the thought of more than one Universe. We also need to learn more about worm holes. So much to do and so little time.

Too bad this is such a long post and thread, we could have discussed another neat topic, Predestination and Free Willey.

In all cases the propecy about peters denial was done after dinner and before the garden.

In all cases it happened like Jesus said. If you want the 4 gospels to be carbon copies, then you are missing the point.
On top of that, I would not believe them if they were in fact carbon copies.

I would address the rest but you did not supply scripture



[edit on 31-7-2005 by jake1997]

Learned men of the near-past who were schooled in the Bible and could speak-write-read Greek, Latin, and Hebrew as well as their own native tongue say there needed to be three denials before the first crowing of the cock. Then another three between the first crowing and the second crowing.

In Matthew 26:74 the cock crew once and he remembered the words of Christ and he went out and wept bitterly.

Mark states in 14:68 that Peter denied him one time and the cock crew and then he makes two more denials and the cock crew the second time.

Luke 22:60 and 61 has Peter performing the three denials and then the cock crew immediately. (61) the Lord turned and looked upon Peter.

John 18:26 mentions as one of Peter's accusers being a kinsman of the high priest, the man whose ear Peter cut off in Matthew 26:51, Mark 14:47, Luke 22:50 and 51. The incident of this man that had his ear cutoff by Peter and healed by Christ was mentioned throughout and yet he was only mentioned in John as one of the accusers of Peter. The other writers proved they knew the kinsman of the high priest by their description and yet failed to mention him as an accuser until John. I would think the scholars correct. There were more than three denials.