Center of universe is us.

Originally posted by Evolution Cruncher
time space and matter each have three demensions
Time [past, present, future] Space [length, width, height] and matter [ solid, liquid, gas].

Matter doesn't have dimensions but states... and actually more of them than three.

Also time doesn't have dimensions, just different directions (past, future) with present between them like origin in coordinate system between negative and positive side of axis.


And did mankind's average intelligence again drop too many steps closer to piece of rock in these few months?!

The Galaxy Song
Monty Python
.
Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
And revolving at nine hundred miles an hour,
It's orbiting at nineteen miles a second, so it's reckoned,
Round a sun that is the source of all our power.
The sun and you and me and all the stars that we can see
Are moving at a million miles a day
In an outer spiral arm, at forty thousand miles an hour,
Of the galaxy we call the 'Milky Way'.
.
Our galaxy itself contains a hundred billion stars.
It's a hundred thousand light years side to side.
It bulges in the middle, sixteen thousand light years thick,
But out by us, it's just three thousand light years wide.
We're thirty thousand light years from galactic central point.
We go 'round every two hundred million years,
And our galaxy is only one of millions of billions
In this amazing and expanding universe.
.
The universe itself keeps on expanding and expanding
In all of the directions it can whizz
As fast as it can go, at the speed of light, you know,
Twelve million miles a minute, and that's the fastest speed there is.
So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure,
How amazingly unlikely is your birth,
And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space,
'Cause there's bugger all down here on Earth.
.
Sung by Eric Idle in "The Meaning of Life"

regarding the universe being finite, the idea is that 3-dimentional space loops around on itself... think of our 3-dimentional universe as a 2-dimentional object (since we can't really envision anything extra dimentional)....

take an ant traversing a piece of paper for instance. if the ant walks from one side to the other, it will realize that the paper is infact finite. but if you roll that piece of paper into a cylinder, and provided that there are no referance points (since everything in space is moving, we have no stable referance points), the ant will walk the loop around and around, and the piece of paper will apear to be infinite.

thats the way i like to think of it anyway....

And did mankind's average intelligence again drop too many steps closer to piece of rock in these few months?!

well if that were true, that would be the opposite of evolution, and that is unthinkable. Evolution cant be wrong, its scientific , remember? take a look at some of the other forums that deal with the topic of evolution.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

EC

Originally posted by ulshadow
Now bow before your god or I will destory your small rock you live in!!!

Dude, one word: DECAF!

Originally posted by Evolution Cruncher

And did mankind's average intelligence again drop too many steps closer to piece of rock in these few months?!

well if that were true, that would be the opposite of evolution, and that is unthinkable. Evolution cant be wrong, its scientific , remember? take a look at some of the other forums that deal with the topic of evolution.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

EC

Well evolution doesnt always have to make us smarter! Its thinkable...sure! Look at it...we have people thinking that the earth is the center of the universe!!! Ha! Who'da thunk it!

Originally posted by Evolution Cruncher

And did mankind's average intelligence again drop too many steps closer to piece of rock in these few months?!

well if that were true, that would be the opposite of evolution, and that is unthinkable. Evolution cant be wrong, its scientific , remember? take a look at some of the other forums that deal with the topic of evolution.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

EC

Close, but no bananna.

Organisms evolve to fit a niche. There's nothing that says it has to be more complex or even more intelligent. It simply has to be better adapted to an environment.

This is the reason that we don't have packs of wild poodles. They are, presumably, more intelligent than your average dingo. But they're not terribly well adapted to life in the wilds of Australia.

A few thoughts on the many subjects being discussed here, if I may intrued.

1 - There is no proof either way, in the debate of the universe being intinite, or finite. That being said, I tend to follow Einstein's theories of relativity, which speak of the 4 dimensional curvature of space-time. If that does indeed hold true, then in my mind this proves two things. #1, Space in and of itself, is infinite, but our universe, i.e. the matter and energy which makes up what we call "the universe", is finite. If something curves, it would eventually meet up with itself, and, to use a tired Hawking analogy, like a balloon, if you were to follow a straight line around the balloon, you would eventually return to where you started from.

But I also agree with what Archytas, the greek philospher stated "Assume I am at the edge of the universe. What hinders me to stretch my hand beyond this limit?

Hence, the universe is finite (i.e. matter and energy), but space is infinite.


2 - On String theory, while some of the math is intrigueing, and I believe they are making great steps towards narrowing the 6 current string theories (basonic, I, IIA, IIB, HO, and HE) into the M THeory, the problem I find when studying it, is the solution seems more complex than the problem. When you need to mathematically discover 10 to 26 Spacetime Dimensions to account for something, well, it just seems like you're overcomplicating the solution.

Also, the Basonic theory, which deals with force along, not matter, requires the use of Tachyon particles (I'm sure most of us, being the dorks that we are, have heard the term Tachyon from Star Trek), which have an imaginary mass. The question is, how can something have an "imaginary" mass?


3 - Since someone had to bring up evolution I would like to challenge all those Evolution lovers out there to come up with some solid evidence of macroevolution. There is no doubt in my mind that microevolution exists (we have evidence of it), but I have yet to see compelling evidence of macro-evolution.

I would like to explain briefly why I don't believe in macro-evolution.

A - The statistical probablility of a species, be it Haploid or Polyploid, of mutating (barring external causes such as radiation, or high doses of X-Rays or ultraviolet light) is very, very small.

B - Now couple with that the statistical probability of that genetic mutation being beneficial to the species (i.e. a longer tongue ona frog, making it easier to catch flies), as opposed to harmful (i.e. being born with only one lung) is astronomical. For every one thing that could go right, there are a million things that could go wrong.

C - Now couple these two factors in with the statistical likelyhood of this genetic mutation being passed on to the off-spring of this creature (i.e. the chromosomal trait being dominant, etc.)

What you have is an incredibly unlikely event. If this holds true, and this is how life evolves, it would have taken trillions of years longer than life has currently existed on earth (as far as fossil records show us anyway) for life to simply be able to have become multiple cell organisms, much less as complex a life form as human beings are today.

But I digress, and I don't want to have this thread railroaded off topic, more than it already has. As I said, I am genuinely interested in any evidence or ideas people might have about any of these topics, so you are more than welcome to U2U me with your thoughts/ideas on the matter.

But getting back to the topic at hand.

No, the earth is not the center of the universe. If the sun is the center of the solar system (we revolve around it, not vice-versa) as Capernicous showed us some time ago.

Unless you don't believe in gravity. Or math. Then we just might be the center of the universe.

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
And revolving at nine hundred miles an hour,
It's orbiting at nineteen miles a second, so it's reckoned,
Round a sun that is the source of all our power.
The sun and you and me and all the stars that we can see
Are moving at a million miles a day
In an outer spiral arm, at forty thousand miles an hour,
Of the galaxy we call the 'Milky Way'.

The "universe" is finite, because it is inverted.
Being inverted, it is therefore rather minuscule in relation to the accepted model.

So, you're not standing on a planet, you're standing '"in" the earth.
It is not spinning 900 mph, it's stationary.
Not orbiting 19 m/s, but rather the ecliptic and celestial sphere are revolving within it.
The sun is moving within it too. The stars are fixed within the celestial sphere, which completes its' circuit once a day.
The "milky Way" is a small band of elements surrounding the celestial sphere.

Our galaxy itself contains a hundred billion stars.
It's a hundred thousand light years side to side.
It bulges in the middle, sixteen thousand light years thick,
But out by us, it's just three thousand light years wide.
We're thirty thousand light years from galactic central point.
We go 'round every two hundred million years,
And our galaxy is only one of millions of billions
In this amazing and expanding universe.

The celestial spher contains a hundred billion stars that are very very tiny.
The celestial sphere is roughly 4,000 miles in daimeter.
It is bulging(expanding) and one day its gonna burst open.
This amazing and expanding heavenly curtain. So small so close.
Wonder what's behind...

The universe itself keeps on expanding and expanding
In all of the directions it can whizz
As fast as it can go, at the speed of light, you know,
Twelve million miles a minute, and that's the fastest speed there is.
So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure,
How amazingly unlikely is your birth,
And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space,
'Cause there's bugger all down here on Earth.

The celestial sphere keeps on expanding and expanding, til one day soon, it will rift open like a scroll unraveling...huh, to think that the bible was right about this...hmmmm Is. 34:4, Rev 6...
And pray that your souls are secure grounded in faith of the only One who can save you from he wrath to come.
'Cause there's gonna be a lot of hiding in clefts of rocks.

The earth is the edge and heaven is the center.

Whats!!! who has teach you this nonsense? They will be destoryed! They will fear my awsome power! Now bow before your god or I will destory your small rock you live in!!!

uh, why am I not dead yet? kill me once you get this message... you dont even have to know who I am, just kill me from the chair in which you sit.

Matter doesn't have dimensions but states... and actually more of them than three.

and what other states are those?

[edit on 3-8-2005 by Evolution Cruncher]

A - The statistical probablility of a species, be it Haploid or Polyploid, of
mutating (barring external causes such as radiation, or high doses of X-Rays or
ultraviolet light) is very, very small.

Small, but not impossible. A statitical probability in no way dictates the random
behavior of mutations.

C - Now couple these two factors in with the statistical likelyhood of this genetic
mutation being passed on to the off-spring of this creature (i.e. the chromosomal trait
being dominant, etc.)

No no thats not how it works. A species with several genetic traits co exist but when
threatened with competition only the sub-species with the favorable genetic traits
survive.

Originally posted by Plumbo
The celestial sphere keeps on expanding and expanding, til one day soon, it will rift
open like a scroll unraveling...huh, to think that the bible was right about
this...hmmmm Is. 34:4, Rev 6...
And pray that your souls are secure grounded in faith of the only One who can save
you from he wrath to come.
'Cause there's gonna be a lot of hiding in clefts of rocks.

The earth is the edge and heaven is the center

Ok i'll bite. Do you have any source other than the bible? So heaven really is like this
super hot core? Wow nice place!

Matter doesn't have dimensions but states... and actually more of them than three.

and what other states are those?

Solids, liquids, gases, plasmas, and Bose-Einstein condensates.

[edit on 3-8-2005 by I_s_i_s]

Originally posted by I_s_i_s

Originally posted by Plumbo
The celestial sphere keeps on expanding and expanding, til one day soon, it will rift
open like a scroll unraveling...huh, to think that the bible was right about
this...hmmmm Is. 34:4, Rev 6...
And pray that your souls are secure grounded in faith of the only One who can save
you from he wrath to come.
'Cause there's gonna be a lot of hiding in clefts of rocks.

The earth is the edge and heaven is the center

Ok i'll bite. Do you have any source other than the bible? So heaven really is like this
super hot core? Wow nice place!

Well, there are two different experiments conducted prior to the 20th century that give credence to the idea that the earth's surface is actually concave rather than convex and that we and all living things live on the inside edge of a hollow earth. The stars, galaxies, planets are all up towards the center and are quite small in relation to the accepted model.

www.rolf-keppler.de...
hosts these two experiemts on the side bar...

"Experiments with plumb bobs"

and "The Invention of the Rectilineator
Modus Operandi of the New Geodesy."

However, this analysis by Rolf is missing the element of glass present in the atmosphere which optically dstorts our view and tricks us into believing we live On the earth and the universe is infinite. The opposite is true, so we live in the earth and the sky is a convex ceiling, instead of a domed vault.

This discussion I initiated should help you...
www.belowtopsecret.com...

Be objective now....

no you are wrong. its still solid, liquid and gas.
plasma is still gas-like
and
bose einstein condensates are liquid-like.

its still the same states.



EC

Sorry to say but plasma is widely recognized state.
According to good ol' Wikipedia

Plasmas are the most common phase of matter, comprising more than 99% of the visible universe.

Also

Plasma is often called the fourth state of matter. It is distinct from the three lower-energy phases of matter; solid, liquid, and gas, although it is closely related to the gas phase in that it also has no definite form or volume. There is still some disagreement as to whether a plasma is a distinct state of matter or simply a type of gas. Most physicists consider a plasma to be more than a gas

There is a detailed explanation of why gas and plasma differ so much if a bit of clarification is needed.
Wikipedia : Plasma

Wiki also has descriptions of the Einstein-Bose condensates as well.

And I think that if Decaf is not quite enough, possibly a tranquilizer would do.

edit for typo


[edit on 3-8-2005 by amarenell]

Ok,

Garden Spider. I would like to discuss things with you in detail. You seem intelligent so I think it would be beneficial for both of us. In the mean time....

Plumbo, please tell me that you are kidding. I have never heard such nonsense in my life. I did however get a chuckle out of your falling star theory, and I would like to know more about how we live in a bubble with a 4000 mile diameter. Thats some interesting knowledge there!

So, if I understand you correctly, you come to these scientific realities that you explain to us by using your bible. Am I wrong? Your references seem to be based in it. I am also assuming that you are a literal interpretator of this wonderful book we call the bible. Am I correct there?

Tell me, if you have the time. What Jesus' last word's were as he died on the cross. Can you at least humor me here?

According to the prevailing theory the universe is expanding at a constant rate in all directions away from the observer. So from my point of view I am the center of the universe and by association my planet, Earth.

Now my friends, Torp, who lives on Gnikgnac, makes the same claim. And despite 'his' MPD which gives credence to the old saw "several heads are better than one", I didn't believe them. So I went to visit.

Although it was a long way when compared to for instance the diameter of a Higg's particle, the distance to Gnikgnac being that which light would travel in 700 years or so, it took no time to get there. What with the pre-accelerated and directed tachyon cascade, simultaneity, chanting forty-two and Torp's connections, I arrived the day before I left.

Well sure enough, as I expected the universe was expanding at a constant rate in all directions from my location next to Torp. When I pointed this out, of course they protested and maintained that according to their observations, they were in fact at the center of the universe.

I suggested perhaps rather cruelly that 'he', Torp, would have to elect one of himself to be the center of the universe otherwise he would be stuck in one of several universes depending on which of him was observing.

I said, "God knows what you'll wake up to or where, even, Torp."

Then we all decided that it was okay to have multiple universes. We each could be at the center of our own universe.

After dinner I went home, bidding one another adieu, glad to be in each others universe.

And I in yours.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is always darkest before it is pitch black.


[edit on 3-8-2005 by Zadeh Redux]

[edit on 3-8-2005 by Zadeh Redux]

Originally posted by Zadeh Redux
Now my friends, Torp, who lives on Gnikgnac, makes the same claim.

Oh pffffft! Wait till Torp finds out about stumason's little claim! Torp will need some Taspirin!

Originally posted by Sight2reality
Plumbo, please tell me that you are kidding.

Sorry, can't do that.

So, if I understand you correctly, you come to these scientific realities that you explain to us by using your bible. Am I wrong? Your references seem to be based in it.

Yes, that's right.
If you really want to know my beliefs, you can go here for starters.
www.belowtopsecret.com...
But I don't think you really want to know, for if you did, your attitude would have been more respecting toward my beliefs.

I am also assuming that you are a literal interpretator of this wonderful book we call the bible. Am I correct there?

Not entirely, some is to be interpreted meaphorically, some literally.

Tell me, if you have the time. What Jesus' last word's were as he died on the cross. Can you at least humor me here?

I wasn't there. So I'm not sure. If you're trying to catch me on some biblical contradiction, sorry, I already know that there has been additions and deletions over the centuries. So, this wonderful book you think I adhere to 100% of the time, word for word, is to me the closest understanding I cognitvely have to knowing my Creator, even though I don't agree with every word....in the original mss I would, but not now.

Ok, then explain me Plumbo, why do we see it as a BALL from the Moon?

If moon was inside Earth, we couldnt see earth from the Moon as a Ball.


And Evolution Cruncher, scientific community made a revision about "matter states."
There arent only liquid, solid and gas. Like Gelatin. Its not liquid, nor it is solid.

And there is no oposite of evolution.

[edit on 4-8-2005 by NinterX]

[edit on 4-8-2005 by NinterX]

Originally posted by NinterX
Ok, then explain me Plumbo, why do we see it as a BALL from the Moon?

glass distorts earth, same way we see the sky as a BALL

Originally posted by I_s_i_s

Originally posted by Zadeh Redux
Now my friends, Torp, who lives on Gnikgnac, makes the same claim.

Oh pffffft! Wait till Torp finds out about stumason's little claim! Torp will need some Taspirin!

Perhaps there is room in Torp's universe for 'teste-linear lensing' which might permit stumason's theory to stand notwithstanding a Big Bang.

I'll keep the Taspirin handy just in case. Thanks for the heads up I_s_i_s.