Parental Advisory: Same Sex Marriage

Originally posted by Notright
Well then if we have a warning for homosexuality because people don't want to see it... Then thats just as bad as saying we need a warning for mixed marriages on TV b/c some people don't like it.

In a strange way I agree with you, in so far as our nation seeming to go out of its way to stagnate in the name of not offending anyone. However, your comparison is along the same lines as the comment made comparing Brown v. Board of Education and Roe v. Wade. Interracial marrages (I'm guessing that's what "mixed" meant?), while some have problems with it, are not a hot political item with many of those against it believing it is a deviant behavior that shouldn't be accepted. If you believe it should not be accepted, then you wouldn't want your kids to be watching a show that tries to get you to accept it as normal and acceptable.

...Next time I think I'll catch up on the thread before I post so I don't post in clumps like this

Originally posted by junglejake
We gave you science as it exists today. You know, minor thing and all...

Huh?

Please tell me how Christianity gave us science? They did burn several scientists at the stake. They did attempt to surpress scientific thought through out history. To this day they try push the ridiculous fable of creation.

Originally posted by apocalypta
Please tell me how Christianity gave us science?

Oh! I'm glad you asked How very unexpected

Not only are religion and science combinable, but Christianity has played a vital role in nurturing the progress of modern science. P.E. Hodgson stated that:

Although we seldom recognize it, scientific research requires certain basic beliefs about the order and rationality of matter, and its accessibility to the human mind . . . they came to us in their full force through the Judeo-Christian belief in an omnipotent God, creator and sustainer of all things. In such a world view it becomes sensible to try and understand the world, and this is the fundamental reason science developed as it did in the Middle Ages in Christian Europe, culminating in the brilliant achievements of the seventeenth century.

[1]

Loren Eisley went further in saying the beginnings of science, and our very methods used today such as the Scientific Method, were based on faith that the universe is orderly and could be "interpreted by rational minds" [1]. Indeed, we enter into the scientific arena with the expectation that, if we gather all the data, we will be able to come to a conclusion as to how it works. The very core of all science, physics, not only believes this, but completely relies on it. If the universe is an orderly place, then laws of physics can be applied. If, however, it is completely chaotic, physics has no place, because an equation that works for the exact same situation in one place may not be applicable in another. For instance, heat rises on Earth, but in a chaotic universe, that may not be the case on Mars.

So how did we come to this conclusion that the universe is orderly? Through religion and the belief in an ultimate creator of everything man began to see the universe in an orderly way.

The Greeks approached science in a different manner than we do today. They did not believe in science through experimentation and observation, but through reasoning and philosophy. Sir Francis Bacon in the 15th century developed the scientific method as a basis to change science from a generally philosophical enterprise into one of experimentation and observation. He believed the Greeks' premise was wrong because the Greeks failed to recognize nature as created and orderly. "Empirical science follows directly from belief in a created and therefore contingent nature."

Religion not only works with science, but the belief in a creator caused modern science to develop into what it is today. Religion and science are combinable. If they were not, our methods of observation and experimentation would never have been developed. Scientists started with the premise that the universe was created, and was orderly, and flourished from there. Taking concepts described in religious works and applying them to modern science in an experimental and observational means could only help to further science more, as long as politics are kept out of it. After all, it [I]is[/I] possible that one of the world's religions are correct. Science hasn't developed the tools to test that yet, so any assumption is made on faith alone.

For more on this idea, please visit the debate on this very subject at www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by junglejake
I think the reason the general Christian population think that homosexuality is still a sin while much of that mentioned in Numbers and the like is because Paul specifically points it out as being wrong in first Corinthians 6:9.
...
So far as I've been able to tell, that's why homosexuality is still on that list of sins Christians talk about. Why they freak out more about homosexuality than they do the sexual immorality that ravages our nation, I'm not sure.

Yeah. I'm pretty sure why they do

You mean to tell me that 'homosexuality' was specifically stated in the original writings? Seems to me that that word was slipped in as a convenience to the modern-day homophobes.

Where your version states: "nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders"
The KJV states: "not effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind"

I wonder what the original Aramic said?

And I don't have a problem at all with you or anyone thinking homosexuality is wrong, I just don't think it should be legislated any more than not working on Sunday should be. I was allowed to marry the person I chose to spend the rest of my life with and I think it should be the right of everyone else, too.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

You mean to tell me that 'homosexuality' was specifically stated in the original writings? Seems to me that that word was slipped in as a convenience to the modern-day homophobes.

Where your version states: "nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders"
The KJV states: "not effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind"

I wonder what the original Aramic said?

And I don't have a problem at all with you or anyone thinking homosexuality is wrong, I just don't think it should be legislated any more than not working on Sunday should be.

I was allowed to marry the person I chose to spend the rest of my life with and I think it should be the right of everyone else, too.

Actually a stronger verse from the original KJV version would be Romans 1:26-27 "...for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature. And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another;...."

I have read arguements that homosexuality was not referred to in this verse. I could agree if it were not for the use of the word lust. The Strong's greek/hebrew states that lust comes from the word orexis. I can't type the charaters in the hebrew. The definition is: 1. desire, longing, craving for 2, eager desire, lust, appetite

I do believe strongly in marriage that is ordained by God to be a union between one man and one woman. Marriage is a part of the church, and belongs in the church.

I believe homosexuality is wrong, and am against homosexual marriages. I will tell you the truth, that I'm unsure how I feel about the legislation for or against gay marriage. The reason being is that I also feel that marriage should have been left in the hands of the churches. The government was created to be limited, and not to govern every area and aspect of the lives of the citizens it rules.

What is it about marriage that came from a religious concept that can get the blood boiling of atheists, secular, pagan, christian, and other groups of people?

Originally posted by junglejake
Why they freak out more about homosexuality than they do the sexual immorality that ravages our nation, I'm not sure.

I think it is because it is the easiest to attack, and the most easily noticable. It steps out of the bounds of what is considered to be "socially acceptable". Homosexuality is neither worse nor better than any other sexually immoral sin.

Why they freak out more about homosexuality than they do the sexual immorality that ravages our nation, I'm not sure.

Because, we've been assaulted by the media for several decades now. Sex has been shoved down our throats. We've been taught that we are to keep quiet and not say anything about the deviants. God is not allowed to be taught in schools, but kids can be told they came from animals and that morality is relative.

The surprising thing to me is that anyone even bothers balking at homosexuality.

The job of the social reengineer is almost done.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
The job of the social reengineer is almost done.

And people woke up late in realizing what was happening and only now have started to rage against it. I only hope it's wasn't too late.

I agree that we've become desensitized to sexual immorality, but that's exactly why that should be the target for movement. The homosexual agenda is mearly an offshoot of that original movement. Take out the roots, and the branches will fall.

Originally posted by Mystery_Lady
I do believe strongly in marriage that is ordained by God to be a union between one man and one woman. Marriage is a part of the church, and belongs in the church.

I have no issue with you believing that. But I was not married in a church. There was no minister nor were there religious words spoken. Am I married? I have the legal documents that say I am. I have all the rights and privileges awarded every other married person in the US.

Even if a person gets married in a church and under the most holy of circumstances, they must sign a LEGAL document to be married by law and to enjoy the legal rights awarded married people in this country. If you do not sign the LEGAL documents, even though you may be married 'in the eyes of God', you are not legally married.

Marriage is a legal institution with a religious component for those who desire.

I believe homosexuality is wrong, and am against homosexual marriages.

I support your right to have and express your belief. Fortunately nobody is forcing you to participate in a homosexual marriage. What I don't understand is your right (if you're claiming it) to dictate to others whether or not they should get married.

What is it about marriage that came from a religious concept that can get the blood boiling of atheists, secular, pagan, christian, and other groups of people?

I don't have any problem with people who wish to have a religious component to their marriage. Have at it. But my marriage is not based on religion. Religion is not a condition of marriage. It's an ADDITION to the legal institution.

If my blood boils, or gets a little warm, it's because many religious people talk and act as if marriage is strictly a religious union. As if marriage wasn't around before religion. As if religion OWNS marriage and the religious of our society therefore have the right to dictate to others the conditions of their marriages. It's simply not true.

But if people want to believe that anyway, it certainly is their choice.

Question: What does the bible say about being married in a church or in the eyes of God. Does God consider me married, for example?

Something interesting I found in search of the answer to my own question...

Read this over several times till you really get the meaning. I sure wish the Christians who profess to be doing God's work by judging the sinners would actually read and understand the word they profess to live by.

Hebrews 13:4 - Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

Emphasis mine.

It would appear that man's opinion on gay marriage matters not to God. HE WILL JUDGE.

And marriage is honorable in all. So it would appear that God likes my marriage just fine, even though he wasn't invited to the ceremony.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
But I was not married in a church. There was no minister nor were there religious words spoken. Am I married? I have the legal documents that say I am. I have all the rights and privileges awarded every other married person in the US.

Even if a person gets married in a church and under the most holy of circumstances, they must sign a LEGAL document to be married by law and to enjoy the legal rights awarded married people in this country. If you do not sign the LEGAL documents, even though you may be married 'in the eyes of God', you are not legally married.

Marriage is a legal institution with a religious component for those who desire.

What I don't understand is your right (if you're claiming it) to dictate to others whether or not they should get married.

But my marriage is not based on religion. Religion is not a condition of marriage. It's an ADDITION to the legal institution.

If my blood boils, or gets a little warm, it's because many religious people talk and act as if marriage is strictly a religious union. As if marriage wasn't around before religion.

Question: What does the bible say about being married in a church or in the eyes of God. Does God consider me married, for example?

I skirted around the issue a little too much in my previous post. I'll go ahead and open the Pandora’s box. God help me here. Marriage came from religion and religious concepts. It is a God given right, and blessed in God's sight. If one believes that and the separation of church and state, then the government needs to get their hand out of marriage also.

If one does not believe in God or a higher power, then what is marriage except a legal contract with the government giving certain legal and tax rights. Then that contract can be in the form of a civil union as the formal legal governmental contract between two people. That contract would grant the citizens rights related to taxes, insurance, and etc.

Those who are married in the church would also have to obtain the civil union document to gain the legal governmental rights that the civil union grants to its citizens. Both documents could be obtained at the same time if so desired. Then the government has all the right in the world to determine who can and who can not legally form a civil union. That in and of itself opens up the door to homosexuality and other practices between people.

Then marriage as seen by God would be left to the churches and other religions as it may be, then they would have no cause to put up battles against something they consider grossly immoral. As it stands now, if the government were to make homosexual marriage legal, then homosexuals could go to the churches that believe the practice is a sin, and take the battle to the courts that those churches are denying their rights to marry. I can imagine that will be the fiercest battle ever fought in the courts.

Of course, even with that separation of church and state, Christians will still view homosexuality as a sin. Some will still come against a civil union even though it will have nothing to do with God. They are just sick and tired of having sexual immorality, immorality, secular humanism, moral relativism, so called tolerance, acceptance of bad behavior, and etc being pushed down their throats.

I try to view things in light of loving others even your enemy, the last days as in the Book of Revelations, and my faith. I still believe that there is hope and that Christian love will go alot further in winning others to Christ than battle lines being drawn in the ground. Revelations does say that God will give the people over to their sins to put it mildly. God is letting the wheat and tares grow together right now. Tolerance and love right now is needed. As much as I try, there is only so much that I can tolerate though in my humanness. Unfortunately the time is coming for all of us where the battle lines will have to be drawn. I do not think any one is looking forward to it.

Answer: If you do not believe in God, then how can God bind you to your spouse, and make the two of you one flesh and one blood? I do not know how God sees a marriage where the power that grants the right to marry believes that it is higher than God himself is. They are marrying based on their own authority, and not His authority. I just know God doesn’t think to kindly on those who think they have more authority and power.

Originally posted by Mystery_Lady
If one does not believe in God or a higher power, then what is marriage except a legal contract with the government giving certain legal and tax rights.

Your assumptions are incredible! My marriage is a spiritual bond. It is a promise, a covenant, a formal, solemn, precious agreement. A statement, an announcement, the most cherished relationship in my life. Above all others it is my love - manifest. Fortunately, my marriage doesn't need your approval. Yet.

It's also really none of anyone else's business what my marriage is. I have a right to marriage and I'm not willing to give it up for something called a civil union so religious folks can have it all their own!

Unfortunately the time is coming for all of us where the battle lines will have to be drawn. I do not think any one is looking forward to it.

Unfortunate, indeed. I'm not dawing any lines. If you use your religion to draw battle lines that's your choice and your problem.

Answer: If you do not believe in God, then how can God bind you to your spouse, and make the two of you one flesh and one blood? I do not know how God sees a marriage where the power that grants the right to marry believes that it is higher than God himself is. They are marrying based on their own authority, and not His authority. I just know God doesn’t think to kindly on those who think they have more authority and power.

I have not said whether or not I believe in God. But God does not bind me to my spouse. We are not one flesh and one blood. The powers that have granted me my marriage are the powers of love and the law

I always think back to what my mother would have said and I do believe that she would have said that we cannot know the mind of God. That only God is the judge. Whenever I asked her if something was a sin, she told me where to go in the bible. She would be appalled at the judgments the modern-day Christians are slinging around all the time.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
issue with you believing that. But I was not married in a church. There was no minister nor were there religious words spoken. Am I married? I have the legal documents that say I am. I have all the rights and privileges awarded every other married person in the US.

With that mentality, marriage becomes a business arrangement, not a life long commitment. As soon as you take the covenant out of the covenant of marriage, all you have left is a civil union.

Now, make no mistake, I'm not saying you don't love your significant other (dunno what your gender is ). However, when marriage is looked at as a personal business decision, the idea of selling your half becomes a decent enough idea when things get rough. In theory, starting a life long commitment with the woman (or man) you love, for better or worse, under God, is not a thing you can opt out of when the going gets tough, which it will.

This is the arrogance that that makes the blood boil. If you're wondering - this is it.

Read my post above, jake, about my marriage and tell me it's a business arrangement. And FYI:

Main Entry: 1 cov·e·nant
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from present participle of covenir to agree, from Latin convenire
1 : a usually formal, solemn, and binding agreement : COMPACT
2 a : a written agreement or promise usually under seal between two or more parties especially for the performance of some action b : the common-law action to recover damages for breach of such a contract
- cov·e·nan·tal /"k&-v&-'nan-t&l/ adjective

But I'm sure the Christians have their own meaning for that, too, and of course they're right and it's a religious term and we mortals aren't allowed to use it because God said so.

Thanks for all the judgments of you good Christians on my marriage. I can't say here what I really want to say but you have no idea what you're talking about!

Originally posted by Jonna
...because a child is never to young to be taught prejudice.

Or fairy stories!!

(BTW if this offends christians etc then good! - I'm an equal opportunity atheist!). People are free, of course, to believe whatever they want but we're also entirely free to poke fun too!

My favourite Bible chapter? Leviticus 19:9 says it all really.

Benevolent Heretic "Your assumptions are incredible! My marriage is a spiritual bond."

First of all it was a general refrence, and not directed to your marriage. Also, I did refer to a higher power which would includes every spiritual aspect there whether it is a god, gods, or the force if you would like to call it that. Who is making the assumptions here? I never asked what your religion is. You were the one who brought your marriage into this.

As far as any battle lines goes, it is the homosexuals who are drawing it. They are the ones who are trying to force us to totally accept their behaviour. On top of that, they want us to believe that it is natural. They will not stop until they are 100% accepted even to the point of forcing others to comply through the legal system, bashing, or any way they can think of.

I fully agree with what JungleJake said especially with:

With that mentality, marriage becomes a business arrangement, not a life long commitment. As soon as you take the covenant out of the covenant of marriage, all you have left is a civil union.

How important is marriage to you? What if the government neither accepted nor denied marriage. There were no goverment laws on marriages, and no one recieved any legal rights for being married? Which would include no tax benefits, no insurance benefits, no benefits as to whom your possessions go to after you die. The government had alternative ways to determine who was next of kin, and who would get notified if you were seriously injured or died. Say that your will would determine who your possessions go to.

Would you still have gotten married? I'll answer my own question so you don't have to ask. I would in a heart beat. I know it is a covenant between my God, my spouse, and my self. It is a binding agreement for life.

Many only get married because of the legal aspects and protections it affords. If those legal aspects and protections were taken away, there would be far fewer marriages. It seems that the main reason the homosexuals are lobbying for marriage rights is for the legal aspects the government put into the marriage contract.

Originally posted by Mystery_Lady

As far as any battle lines goes, it is the homosexuals who are drawing it. They are the ones who are trying to force us to totally accept their behaviour. On top of that, they want us to believe that it is natural. They will not stop until they are 100% accepted even to the point of forcing others to comply through the legal system, bashing, or any way they can think of.

I see it somewhat differently. Consensual love between two adults - including two adults of the same gender - is just that: consensual. It's also legal. And nobody should have the right to tell them what they may or may not do within that consensual relationship; if it hadn't been demonised by certain Christian groups, gays wouldn't have felt the need to fight for the same rights awarded to heterosexual couples.

It's prejudicial, and it's unfair - and quite frankly, what two adults do in their spare time is nobody else's business. It doesn't harm you, or anyone else.

The homosexual population are simply fighting for fair treatment. Is that so wrong?



[edit on 2-8-2005 by Tinkleflower]

Originally posted by Mystery_Lady
You were the one who brought your marriage into this.

I did. And I'm sorry I did. I didn't know it would be demeaned. My marriage is not religious and has nothing to do with God or god or gods or goddess or the Force. Nothing 'out there'. My hope was that you could see gay marriage in the same light as my non-religious marriage and I see that you do. None of it is valid to you unless your God is involved. Whatever.

They are the ones who are trying to force us to totally accept their behaviour. On top of that, they want us to believe that it is natural. They will not stop until they are 100% accepted even to the point of forcing others to comply through the legal system, bashing, or any way they can think of.

I have no idea what you're talking about. I doubt they give a rat's patootie what you think. Or whether you accept them or not. They just want to live their lives with the same rights as everyone else. It's people like you who are stopping them. You can blame them for drawing the line, but from where I sit, they just want what everyone else has and YOU'RE drawing the line.

How important is marriage to you?

If you don't know that from what I've already written, I can't help you. My marriage is not a business arrangement. And I'm done defending it to you. I'll not bring it in front of you again to investigate and invalidate. I told you what it is. I told you how important it is to me.

I have not once put down your religion, your idea of marriage, your beliefs, or your opinions, but I've really kind of heard enough of how my marriage is nothing important without your approval. I don't need it.

I've been following this thread from the beginning and I feel I need a shower. How can Christians demean others in this matter and I consider myself a Christian, so don't bother going there.

Why should it matter what others do that really doesn't affect you. Those last two post spoke more to me than the rest of the thread. If Christianity means that I judge, condemn, demean others, because of their lifestyle, especially ones that don't affect my life, I think I'll check out Bhudism, it seems a lot more Christian.

Originally posted by intrepid
If Christianity means that I judge, condemn, demean others, because of their lifestyle, especially ones that don't affect my life, I think I'll check out Bhudism, it seems a lot more Christian.

Oh! I'm sure there's no need for that! You sound like a fine Christian to me. I don't judge the whole group by a few.

I know there are non-judgmental Christians still around. Fewer and further between, perhaps, but they're there. I've seen them and I love them! They remind me of my mother. Real Christians who do their very best to be as Christ was. Who make people aspire to be like them.

I'm afraid that in my anger, I kinda lashed out at 'Christians' in general. I apologize.

Originally posted by Mystery_Lady
Would you still have gotten married?

Absolutely. I married for love. I hope that's ok.