Need info on Masons, warren Commission.

If it smells like a rat, walks like a rat, sits with rats, what would you call it?

Originally posted by All Seeing Eye
If it smells like a rat, walks like a rat, sits with rats, what would you call it?

No, all you have is that he hung out with a rat at ONE event, and knew another. This does NOT mean that HE was a Nazi. There were many sympathizers and supporters that were not Nazis. That doesn't make them bad, you need to know why they were sympathetic to Nazis. Remember that the Nazis were indeed a powerful organization, and it would have been politically beneficient for many to align themselves with such a power. We all have to associate with rats from time to time, it's part of life and, hopefully, it's just business.

Seb, did you read the link?

Originally posted by All Seeing Eye
Masonic Light, thank you, the info was very informative and added to the threads quality

Do you have a link to the photo album?

I don't think it can be viewed online, but copies may be ordered here:

www.sc.edu...

Originally posted by All Seeing Eye
Are you not oathed to help brother masons even to the point of betraying your own integrity?

Absolutely not. Nothing is more important to Masonry than the integrity and dignity of the individual. Even though Masonry is itself an organization, it was founded upon the principle that individuals are superior than institutions, not vice versa.

Master Masons are obligated to aid and assist all distressed, worthy Brother Masons, as well as their widows and orphans. Needless to say, if a member of a Masonic Lodge attempts to get a Mason to do something that violates his integrity, such a one probably does not qualify as "worthy".

I know masons are taught the highest standard of moral conduct, but that dosnt stop the ocational evil seed from taking root, and because of the oath, must be protected by the others.
This is what my main complaint is with the brotherhood. There is virtually no way masonry can clean its own house!

In actuality, it would be quite simple. If an unworthy were to become a Mason, which sometimes happens, and then tries to use Masonry for unworthy purposes, he has violated his obligations. All that would have to be done to correct this is a member filing charges of unmasonic conduct against him in his Lodge. The case would be reviewed, and if found guilty, he would be expelled.

Masonic Light, I would agree that in a PERFECT WORLD, Masonry may achieve its goals of a moral world, but as long as outside forces and evil seeds are allowed to find shelter in organizations such as Masonry, you will have to contend with the ritual assault. Masonry may not have started out that way, but it has evolved to what it is today. Not putting the lime light on the evil seeds that have taken root in the brotherhood does more harm than good. The Catholic church is no exception. Rules and laws have little or no effect if they are not applied to all, equally. I have nothing against the premis of "Brotherhood", in fact Im a very great proponent of it. But, brotherhood is nothing and can be quite negative unless it includes all of mankind, for that is what it will take to overcome the "Evil Seeds" of mankind.

Originally posted by All Seeing Eye
Masonic Light, I would agree that in a PERFECT WORLD, Masonry may achieve its goals of a moral world, but as long as outside forces and evil seeds are allowed to find shelter in organizations such as Masonry, you will have to contend with the ritual assault. Masonry may not have started out that way, but it has evolved to what it is today. Not putting the lime light on the evil seeds that have taken root in the brotherhood does more harm than good. The Catholic church is no exception. Rules and laws have little or no effect if they are not applied to all, equally. I have nothing against the premis of "Brotherhood", in fact Im a very great proponent of it. But, brotherhood is nothing and can be quite negative unless it includes all of mankind, for that is what it will take to overcome the "Evil Seeds" of mankind.

How can you say that evil seeds are "ALLOWED to find shelter" in Freemasonry?!?!?!? They are ABSOLUTELY NOT! ANYONE who f's up in Freemasonry, commits a crime, acts immorally or in a way that could bring dishonor to the fraternity is summarily EXPELLED from the fraternity! We kicked a guy out of my own lodge a while back because he was commited of mail fraud. It took less than a month to remove him from the fraternity.

Of course we can't stop some people from joining. People lie and misrepresent themselves, and we can only do so much to investigate them. But as soon as their true nature comes out, they are not "allowed to find shelter" in Freemasonry much longer.

And what exactly do you mean by "being allowed to find shelter"? What kind of SHELTER do you think the fraternity gives a person? You think it protects them from being persecuted for their crimes? I don't understand exactly what you think Freemasonry does for its members.

Originally posted by sebatwerk

Originally posted by All Seeing Eye
Masonic Light, I would agree that in a PERFECT WORLD, Masonry may achieve its goals of a moral world, but as long as outside forces and evil seeds are allowed to find shelter in organizations such as Masonry, you will have to contend with the ritual assault. Masonry may not have started out that way, but it has evolved to what it is today. Not putting the lime light on the evil seeds that have taken root in the brotherhood does more harm than good. The Catholic church is no exception. Rules and laws have little or no effect if they are not applied to all, equally. I have nothing against the premis of "Brotherhood", in fact Im a very great proponent of it. But, brotherhood is nothing and can be quite negative unless it includes all of mankind, for that is what it will take to overcome the "Evil Seeds" of mankind.

How can you say that evil seeds are "ALLOWED to find shelter" in Freemasonry?!?!?!? They are ABSOLUTELY NOT! ANYONE who f's up in Freemasonry, commits a crime, acts immorally or in a way that could bring dishonor to the fraternity is summarily EXPELLED from the fraternity! We kicked a guy out of my own lodge a while back because he was commited of mail fraud. It took less than a month to remove him from the fraternity.

Of course we can't stop some people from joining. People lie and misrepresent themselves, and we can only do so much to investigate them. But as soon as their true nature comes out, they are not "allowed to find shelter" in Freemasonry much longer.

And what exactly do you mean by "being allowed to find shelter"? What kind of SHELTER do you think the fraternity gives a person? You think it protects them from being persecuted for their crimes? I don't understand exactly what you think Freemasonry does for its members.

The point is Freemasonry does nothing for its members. Including everyone on this planet.

Tell that to the thousands of kids that have been treated by the Shriners Hospitals.

Originally posted by eudaimonia
The point is Freemasonry does nothing for its members. Including everyone on this planet.

And how would you know this without actually having been a member? Why would so many millions men, for hundreds of years, join, and be active in their entire lives, an organization that does nothing for them?

And that's not mentioning the millions of people that have benefited from Freemasonry's generosity, charity and volunteerism. That Freemasons are an INCREDIBLY charitable group is verifiable FACT. So what exactly are you talking about?

Originally posted by sebatwerk
And how would you know this without actually having been a member?

Please, I'm proud NOT to be part of your sick demented "BROTHERHOOD". Just admit it, freemasonry is a joke. Secret rituals, handshakes, oaths, symbols, how lame

I'd rather be a Wiccan, at least they appreciate something important. Nature!

In fact, I encourage anyone who is considering becoming a mason to have a hard look at Wiccan first.

Why would so many millions men, for hundreds of years, join, and be active in their entire lives, an organization that does nothing for them?

Because they're lost and naive.

And that's not mentioning the millions of people that have benefited from Freemasonry's generosity, charity and volunteerism. That Freemasons are an INCREDIBLY charitable group is verifiable FACT. So what exactly are you talking about?

That's nice, not all men are evil. Get my drift?

Originally posted by eudaimonia
Please, I'm proud NOT to be part of your sick demented "BROTHERHOOD". Just admit it, freemasonry is a joke. Secret rituals, handshakes, oaths, symbols, how lame

I'd rather be a Wiccan, at least they appreciate something important. Nature!

And Freemasonry doesn't appreciate anything important? Faith, honor, charity, love, wisdom, truth... the list goes on and on. I'm sorry, I guess those things aren't important.

Why would so many millions men, for hundreds of years, join, and be active in their entire lives, an organization that does nothing for them?

Because they're lost and naive.

How smug and ignorant of you. Think about some of the men who have been Freemasons, and who have made it an integral part of their lives: Washington, Churchill, Mozart, FDR, Davie Crockett, Johann Goethe, Voltaire, Rudyard Kipling, Douglas MacArthur... this list also goes on and on, full of men who you will NEVER come close to. But of course THEY'RE the ones who are lost and naive. Right.

You're a joke.

[edit on 7-8-2005 by sebatwerk]

Originally posted by sebatwerk
And Freemasonry doesn't appreciate anything important? Faith, honor, charity, love, wisdom, truth... the list goes on and on. I'm sorry, I guess those things aren't important.

Oh tell me, oh wise one, where lies the truth behind freemasonry? Must I be initiated, be blindfolded, lay my hand on your bible and utter some nonsense? Shall wisdom and love spring upon me all at once? Do I get a pen when I'm done?

How smug and ignorant of you. Think about some of the men who have been Freemasons, and who have made it an integral part of their lives: Washington, Churchill, Mozart, FDR, Davie Crockett, Johann Goethe, Voltaire, Rudyard Kipling, Douglas MacArthur... this list also goes on and on, full of men who you will NEVER come close to. But of course THEY'RE the ones who are lost and naive. Right.

You're a joke.

Who cares? Like Freemasonry gave Mozart his talent. What a sleazy way of promoting your twisted brotherhood.

Yeah, I'm right. Thanks.

Originally posted by eudaimonia
Who cares? Like Freemasonry gave Mozart his talent. What a sleazy way of promoting your twisted brotherhood.

Actually MANY of these men, including George Washington and Ben Franklin, have publically stated that the things they learned within the lodge are what helped or enabled them to do the great things which they have done. I'm not saying it applies directly to all of them, but many HAVE indeed said that.

And I was not promoting my brotherhood, just proving wrong your assertion that the millions of men who have joiuned Freemasonry were not "lost" or "confused", like you seemed so confident to say.

Originally posted by sebatwerk
Actually MANY of these men, including George Washington and Ben Franklin, have publically stated that the things they learned within the lodge are what helped or enabled them to do the great things which they have done. I'm not saying it applies directly to all of them, but many HAVE indeed said that.

Like I said, it's how the practices of Freemasonry is being used that determine if the ends are good or evil. I guess Mozart is a good example of the good, since it's obvious he did produce some of the most beautiful music ever conducted. I'll give you that. Though, I'm still not entirely convinced he used Freemasonry just for the good. He probably wasn't informed about everything, keeping him in the dark. Anyway, I still believe it's not good at all, period. Especially now for our times. In fact, very little good exists nowadays especially when secrecy and "loyalty" come into play. Then there's monarchy, and that means there's always someone at the bottom, which I'm against. Levels, ranks or "degrees" that supposedly define a person's character or wisdom is just plain wrong. The problem is, you won't accept the notion that Freemasonry has a real ugly side to it and many who are members today that rank high in our government and other large establishments are taking advantage of it for the purposes of deceiving and population control.

Originally posted by eudaimonia
Like I said, it's how the practices of Freemasonry is being used that determine if the ends are good or evil. I guess Mozart is a good example of the good, since it's obvious he did produce some of the most beautiful music ever conducted. I'll give you that. Though, I'm still not entirely convinced he used Freemasonry just for the good. He probably wasn't informed about everything, keeping him in the dark.

Keeping him in the dark about WHAT?!? You still don't get it that there really ISN'T much more to Freemasonry than learning the lessons taught in the bible through initiation and symbolism. That is pretty much ALL Freemasonry is. What is there to be kept in the dark about?!?

Anyway, I still believe it's not good at all, period. Especially now for our times. In fact, very little good exists nowadays especially when secrecy and "loyalty" come into play.

Loyalty? Freemasons make no oaths to loyalty or suboordination. You have a very twiated idea of what Freemasonry is, and need to start doing some legitimate research before going off on tyrades such as this. You are very malinformed about Freemasonry, it's actions, purposes, aims and history.

Then there's monarchy, and that means there's always someone at the bottom, which I'm against. Levels, ranks or "degrees" that supposedly define a person's character or wisdom is just plain wrong.

And Freemasonry has ALWAYS been against tyranny in any form. Equality is one of the MAIN principles of Freemasonry. How else can an organization that accepts men of all faiths and background function with everyone inside as equals? The degrees of Freemasonry do not establish grade, rank or authority, only levels of initiation. It's like having taken various classes in college.

The problem is, you won't accept the notion that Freemasonry has a real ugly side to it and many who are members today that rank high in our government and other large establishments are taking advantage of it for the purposes of deceiving and population control.

Can you give me an example of this "ugly side" of Freemasonry that powerful government people take advantage of for the purpose of controlling people? I see no way possible that this could happen. Being initiated into a degree of Freemasonry is like taking a class on various subjects, except these subjects are charity, love, honor, faith, hope, equality, justice, truth, etc... How do you think this can be used to control people?