Guantanamo jail like �health resort�

A Russian mother said that conditions in Russian jails are so awful that she would prefer her son remain in the �humane� conditions of the U.S. military prison in Guantanamo Bay.

www.msnbc.com...

So much for the "Inhumane conditions" argument.

Yes there are certain jails there that are breeding places for super strains of TB, so any sentence is effectively a death sentence.

In Russian prisons there is this SUPER-TB that cant be cured.. and also i have this documentary on vhs tape in witch they show this one prison in what the OMON visits once a week and beats the crap out of the prisoners.. if they dont behave nicely.. Respectfuly..

where's the liberal outrage over conditions of jails over there in the 'workers paradise'?

(cough, Colonel, cough)

[Edited on 8-8-2003 by Bob88]

Hey, that's fantastic! What a slogan!

GUANTANAMO BAY PRISON: Sure you'll be caged up and left outside exposed to the elements, sure you'll never have an actual "lawyer", sure you'll face a military tribunal and summary execution, sure you'll be subjected to torture!

But hey, it ain't as bad a RUSSIAN prisons!

Go McDemocracy!!

Jakomo: Summary execution and torture? That's news to me. Could you elaborate on that ?

Originally posted by Bob88
Jakomo: Summary execution and torture? That's news to me. Could you elaborate on that ?

Well if US sentemces Al-Qaeda members captured in Afganistan to death.. IT IS A WARCRIME.. as these man carry their weapons in open and are members of a well known organisation that has declared A WAR on US.. these things make them legal fighters (Soldiers..) and they there for should be treaded as POW.. if they arent well it is a crime.. for exaple it is illegal to interrogate POWs.. as Genevas patch for rules of war says that POWs have to only tell their name and "serial" (serial being a ARMY NUMBER or day of birth..) and asking or forcing them to tell anything else is A WARCRIME.. INTERREGATION OF POWS IS A WARCRIME.. or did Mr.Bush forgot you tell you this? In Finnish defence force ROE there is one good rule: "Dont cause unnecessarry destruction/deaths" rule witch includes dont shoot the fleeing enemy at their backs.. a thing witch US ARMY allways does.. "Look they are running away.. lets shoot them.."

The Geneva rules:
193.194.138.190...

Article 4

A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:

(a) That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates
(c) That of carrying arms openly

And even if only one criteria was met they still should be treaded as POW.. By these two (at least) do apply to Al-Qaeda..

Article 17

Every prisoner of war, when questioned on the subject, is bound to give only his surname, first names and rank, date of birth, and army, regimental, personal or serial number, or failing this, equivalent information. If he wilfully infringes this rule, he may render himself liable to a restriction of the privileges accorded to his rank or status.

I dont think for one min that the so called "prisoners of war" are being mistreated by the US. I think the US were justified in taking whatever actions they thought were appropriate to protect their citizens. we have to remember that these guys were active members of a terrorist orginisation, not an army. Do you really think that if the boot was on the other foot that they would treat US and British troops as Honoured guests? No of course they wouldnt they would beat, torture and kill them. Sometimes in order to beat a Terrorist Group you have to become as ruthless and un forgiving as they are. Its an unpleasant thought i know but thats how the war on terror has to be and will be fought.

Originally posted by RogueTrooper
I dont think for one min that the so called "prisoners of war" are being mistreated by the US. I think the US were justified in taking whatever actions they thought were appropriate to protect their citizens. we have to remember that these guys were active members of a terrorist orginisation, not an army. Do you really think that if the boot was on the other foot that they would treat US and British troops as Honoured guests? No of course they wouldnt they would beat, torture and kill them. Sometimes in order to beat a Terrorist Group you have to become as ruthless and un forgiving as they are. Its an unpleasant thought i know but thats how the war on terror has to be and will be fought.

War has rules that MUST BE OBEYT.. even war against so called TERRORISTS.. Surely you can kill as many as you can in combat.. or even when they try to surrender.. SHOOT them!!! But if you capture them they MUST BE TREADED ACCORDING THE FCKING RULES. And a another thing.. if you act like them you are no better than them.. you become them.. you become THE TERRORISTS and MURDERS.. THE CRIMINALS.. think about it.. and read the rules..

Rules? My friend there are no rules this is a war were the line between right and wrong become blurred. A war were the people who fight it are indistinguishble from the people you swore to protect. A war were every move you make could be your last. A war were the enemy if he catches you will strip away your human rights, beat you, humiliate you and then when he has got what he wants from you he will kill you ..... quickly if you are lucky. This isnt a war were you can charge a Machine gun nest take a few Prisoners and be back for for Tea and Medals.
It is a ruthlless dirty war, fought in back streets, allys and on city streets. Fought by men and women who have to sometimes put away notions of Honour and following the "rules". This is the way the wars on Terror are fought. They dont get any parades or Laurels heaped upon them they just do what needs to be done.
Sometimes you have to become like them get inside their minds and do unto them before they do unto you.

[Edited on 9-8-2003 by RogueTrooper]

I say as soon as people start killing children, raping, flying airliners into buildings, there are no rules. Those people must be eliminated. Sure America has done alot of bad things, but in contrast to some (Japan, Russia, Germany, France), American's look like saints. The war on terrorism is one that the United States must absolutely win.

You very conveniently left out a couple things there in your quote such as:

(b) That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;

and

(d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

Gee, funny how those slipped by. Especially b. dissapearing between a. and c.

Try as you will to demonise America. You don't fool anyone.

[Edited on 9-8-2003 by Fry2]

[Edited on 9-8-2003 by Fry2]

As well as a fabrication:
You said:

A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:

The actual Geneva convention reads:

2. Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:

Please note the "fulfil the following conditions:" part...

Obviously the "belonging to one of these requirements is a figment of your imagination or, possibly, wishfull thinking.

Either way, it's deception.

I served in the British Army in Northern Ireland 3 tours for a total of 2 years. Terrorists dont follow the rules of War, and in my experience neither do the armys that are sent to combat them. You may as well ask the US army to fight with a blind fold and one arm tied behind thier back.
In public they will be seen to be Obeying the rules of the Convention, but take my word for it, behind the sceanes the real war will be very dirty and very bloody.
Its the only proven way to combat Terror. Im sorry if that dosnt sit well with your well meaning sense of "doing the right thing" but that is just the way it is.
this post is for Uninen not you Fry2, sorry still getting used to the quote function.


[Edited on 9-8-2003 by RogueTrooper]

I still think i'll stick with barbados, although it does sound tempting.

I will agree with Trooper on this one. The Geneva conventions are a joke, a laugh. the idea that war has rules that must be obeyed in the most stupid and hilariously naive notion I have ever seen. Those who drafted the Geneva convetions had thiers heads up thier butts and in the clouds. Anyone, as Trooper has stated, who has ever been in the military knows this: you cant fight bloodthirsty underhanded terrorists by obeying any "rules". I dont believe in laws of war, because war itself is a lawless agressive act of chaos that stems from the dark half of the human soul. the attempt to make war kinder and gentler is an idea that stumps the levels of human stupidity and retardation. We lost Vietnam much in part because our politicians interfered and prevented us from meeting the guerilla VC with equally underhanded tactics, and if we dont fight dfire with fire in iraq (or better yet, pull out all together) we will continue to mount troop deaths and casualties. I care not for the laws of war, when the lives of my former buddies and commerades is at stake, then the enemy....well, his rights disappear really quick. Sorry, you shoot aT me or my friends, your life and dignity is forfeit.

As to Guantanamo Bay, well, Ive hear two conflicting reports. Ive read on both sides contradictory statements. I have seen statements from former prisoners claiming that if they cooperated, they got showers and video games. Could be alot worse. And as for thier "rights" in my opinion, the constitution only applies to American citizens. Foriegn agressors and terrorists, in my opinion, dont count for moot.

Sorry guys, if these assholes holed up in the pen really are enemies, than I could care less how they are treated. But, if they are innocent, just picked up for no reason, then we have a problem. And I am yet to see any evidence of either, so I will remain neutral on the subject.

In the 2 years i served in Northern Ireland we lost 3 Men, well boys really, one of whom was a close friend they were not killed in open combat but by Bombs hidden away and then detonated remotely.
Thats the kind of thing that both the American Army and British Army will have to contend with, my old regiment is there in Iraq at the momment as part of the Desert Rats. Its frustrating and there is nothing that will affect morale more than being unable to strike back.
I agree that they must either be allowed to do the job they are trained for or pulled out all together.

Originally posted by goregrinder
I say as soon as people start killing children, raping, flying airliners into buildings, there are no rules. Those people must be eliminated. Sure America has done alot of bad things, but in contrast to some (Japan, Russia, Germany, France), American's look like saints. The war on terrorism is one that the United States must absolutely win.

Well i think that is is the last war you are going to lose.. as every poor people living in some asian or middle eastern country is to you a terrorist.. like this sh!t with Iran or US backing the rebel and criminal chinese gov at Taiwan.. i mean.. those chinese should be in mainland and the island does in fact belong to japanese? Or better yet to the taiwanese? There is less than 0,5 million real taiwanese around rest are just refugees of war lord Chiang Kai-sheks army and their relatives.. the 22 million "taiwanese" They fled to taiwan as Mao kicked their azz.. and now you still arming them against legimate China?

I know the realities of war, and war against terror / guerillas.. i just wanna mess with the minds of these Yanks as i really dont like USA and their "god bless US.." sh!t.. And i do know that it is better to just force the information you need out of these people (the terrorist.. by violence in needed..) and then shoot them..

Btw arent you just little bit pissed off by yourself by these americans.. as i under stand that US citizens supplied IRA with money and weapons.. their AR-18 and M-16 rifles werent made in Libya were they?



[Edited on 9-8-2003 by Uninen]

What about Taiwan? Those people fled because they dont want to live under the brutal communist regime of China! Listen to yourself! You call the regime, the Chinese regime, that has violated more of your so called human rights, legit? You support China, a communist nation that committed Tianmen square? Those rebels have a right to leave China, and seek out refuge on Taiwan. I support Chinas right to Soverignty within its own borders. I also supprt the right of rebels who dont agree with the Chinese to leave and go find safety where they like. Your arguement is silly, and very totolitarian in nature. let Taiwan be Taiwan, let China be China. And if the Chinese dont like it, they can go to hell. No one is bothering them in thier borders.

As to the middle east, the middle east itself terrorizies its own citizens. I do not care if they see us as terrorists, thier opinion amounts to moot as far as Im concerned. Im concerned about the mess in iraq in relation to our friends and troops who are target practice. I dont care what iran or any of those nations think, they are guilty of stupidity of thier own. My concern is the troops on the ground: either untie thier hands so they can face an unscrupulous and cunning enemy on even turf, or pull the hell out. We dont need another Vietnam.

As long as we continue to follow the illusion that war is govornmed by law, then yes, we will lsoe Iraq just like nam. Something that is crueler than death to those who carry the burden of being in harm's way.