Embryonic Stem Cells--- are we playing God?

Okay, I know that this is probably a thread that is talked about a lot. But... I am a new member and I really wanted to see how other people feel about this issue.

I know that everyone has heard of Embryonic Stem Cell(ESC) research and all of the wonderful promises it holds. We may get cures for cancers, spinal cord injuries, Parkinson's, Alzheimers... The list goes on and on.

And no matter how wonderful it sounds, I am against it. Flat out, 100% against it. Funny, I am a student going into medicine and you wouldn't believe how many people are just amazed that I am against ESC.

Okay, the promises that ESCs hold are indeed impressive, and I think a lot of people would benefit from this, however, we have to remember not to overstep our boundaries here. So first, we are going to take a an egg, fertilize it, then let it grow for a short time, then we will extract some cells, and throw the rest out. Babies (YES THEY ARE BABIES) will be artificially conceived, and after we get what we need from them, we just toss them.


I think that this is the beginning of a long and very soulless path the US and other countries, and we are just beginning to walk it. We have no right to "grow" babies. Baby farms, what a picture that is. We were not meant to make life artificially, that is God's job (yes I am also a strict Catholic).

According to the Catholic religion, a baby receives a soul at the point of conception. Not two weeks, two months, or even after it is born. AT THE POINT OF CONCEPTION! So we are sanctioning the nationwide masacre of innocents.

And, they even want to use aborted babies, I will refuse to say fetuses here, as the source of stem cells and I have even heard that the clinics sell aborted babies to ESC labs. Sure, dead baby market, i am sure that will be great this countries moral. The only thing I see here is a wrong fueling another wrong.

What I want from this thread is what people think about this whole thing. Seems that when I talk to people these days, the majority of them are pro ESC research and that really saddens me.

There are things called Adult Stem Cells you know and these don't involve the harvesting of babies.

I think it is great and you say we will be killing millions of babies but we do that in the world now and they are live ones.

To colsislander:

How can you justify or even compare the killing of babies because it happens eveyday? So, the fact that little children are killed everyday makes the killing of even more, and in the name of good, okay?

That doesn't make any sense to me. One wrong can not and should not be justified by another wrong.

seraph5, when in a few years down the road, you become infected with Alzhiemers, dont take the stem cell treatment that will save you. Stem cell research is going to cure lots of thing, and create new therapies for things we didnt think was treatable.

There is no killing of babies involved. An infinate amount of stem cells can be had from fertility clinics around the globe. Dozens, sometimes hundreds of stem cells are created for couples to concieve. Often times, there are lots of left over stem cells, things that you define as a viable life. The left over ones are thrown into the garbage and incinerated. They are being destroyed anyway, and being wasted. Get your facts straight before you condemn a science.

And adult stem cells do not have the properties of embryonic ones. Adult stem cells are much more difficult to manipulate than the embryonic ones. Proof is with the rats they have attempted to use adult stem cells on. Unfortunatly, the success rate for adult stem cells requires a viable alternative.

seraph5, are you one of these activists that have a fetus in a jar for your rallies?

Originally posted by WissNX01
seraph5, when in a few years down the road, you become infected with Alzhiemers, dont take the stem cell treatment that will save you. Stem cell research is going to cure lots of thing, and create new therapies for things we didnt think was treatable.

There is no killing of babies involved. An infinate amount of stem cells can be had from fertility clinics around the globe. Dozens, sometimes hundreds of stem cells are created for couples to concieve. Often times, there are lots of left over stem cells, things that you define as a viable life. The left over ones are thrown into the garbage and incinerated. They are being destroyed anyway, and being wasted. Get your facts straight before you condemn a science.

And adult stem cells do not have the properties of embryonic ones. Adult stem cells are much more difficult to manipulate than the embryonic ones. Proof is with the rats they have attempted to use adult stem cells on. Unfortunatly, the success rate for adult stem cells requires a viable alternative.

seraph5, are you one of these activists that have a fetus in a jar for your rallies?

Haha. No. And just to clear things up, I know about stem cells. I know that adult stem cells are much harder to isolate and then grow. Takes more money....... And they are still trying to come up with a cost effectiv way of doing it.


This may sound strange to you, but I am religious. You know, believe in God? I do not like any of the things you previously mentioned, however, the use of babies from fertility clinics, well, that is a better alternative than what they want to do.

I believe that a child is a child upon conception. I do not think that just because the "embryo" is only a few cells old that it is not a baby. We all start from something.

Oh ya, and as for adult stem cells not having the properties of ESCs, well, there are stem cells all over the body as they are finding out. However, ESCs just seem more attractive because yes, they have been known to differentiate into many additional types of cells. But, I am sure sciecne can come up with a viable way of using adult stem cells as an alternative.

Did I mention that I do want to go into ADULT stem cell research?

You can get stem cells from the tube that connects the baby to the mother can't you? I forget the name right now but it's late so forgive me

I don't see a problem with them using the cells and I think saying they "harvest" them is a bit rough. They are just a collection of cells when they collect them. Yes, there is life in there but there is no conscious or soul whatever you want to call it, it's not "alive". I say go for it. Think about the positives of it not the negatives.

Originally posted by ArchangelOfCool
You can get stem cells from the tube that connects the baby to the mother can't you? I forget the name right now but it's late so forgive me

I don't see a problem with them using the cells and I think saying they "harvest" them is a bit rough. They are just a collection of cells when they collect them. Yes, there is life in there but there is no conscious or soul whatever you want to call it, it's not "alive". I say go for it. Think about the positives of it not the negatives.

The day someone proves to me without a doubt that a fertilized egg has no soul, is the day I will agree to support ESCs. How do you know that they are just a collection of cells? What is a soul, and when do we get one?

Since you used th word soul, I will assume that you do believe people have one. Sooo, like I said before, when do we get this "soul"? When we are 2 months, 4 months, out of the womb?

I believe that these "embryos" do have souls, so in my eyes, we are killing children.

my understanding is that a lot of stem cell cultures come from aborted foetuses, babies, call them what you will, which would otherwise just be disposed of. as long as you're going to have an abortion, why not use the byproduct to help the ill, instead of wasting it?

-koji K.

The day someone proves to me without a doubt that a fertilized egg has no soul, is the day I will agree to support ESCs.

I don't want to sound too harsh, but the day you can prove anyone has a soul, and you can lay down hard, physical evidence to back you up, is the day I'll join the pro-lifers in burning down abortion clinics. From everything I've seen, as cynical as it may be, the "soul" is merely chemical and electrical interactions in the brain on a scale that's too complex for us to completely figure out, therefore it must be divine.

why not use the byproduct to help the ill, instead of wasting it?

I couldn't have said it better myself. Whether abortions are right or wrong is irrelevant to this argument in my opinion. They're being done, good bad or ugly, so we might as well get some use out of it. And who knows? If we do enough research we may someday find a way to synthesize them. Then we wouldn't have to worry about whether we're killing something/someone. There's a ton of potential in stem cells, potential to save lives.

You could look at it like this: while you might be killing "babies," by not doing the research you're eliminating possible cures for diseases that we know for certain kill people. These are people that I'm sure you would say have a soul. So now you have aborted fetuses that are being disposed of in whatever manner they are, as well as X millions of people who will die from a given disease that might very well have been cured by stem cell research. Do you want to be the one to look their family in the eyes and tell them their loved one wasn't worth the moral implications of studying something that was already dead? If you do, more power to you; I couldn't do it.

I want to be a doctor, it has been my goal in life to help people. I am working my butt off at this very moment to get there. However, I will not participate in ESC research. I believe it is killing, whether or not the babies are dead to begin with, and I don't see how I could look myself in the eyes after i grew embryos, took out cells, threw the rest away.


I know stem cells have so much potential to help those alive and kicking already, but what is the cost? For me, it is too high. I do not believe that God will look down kindly on me if I partook in this, regardless of whether i saved a thousand lives in the process.


I hate to sound all otherworldy, but evil has the tendency of portraying itself as good. I always hear arguments on this subject; that it will save countless lives, diseases and injuries that we previously could not touch will have a cure.

That is why I brought up this particular topic of debate to prove (or disprove apparently) my point.

Just because we are capable of doing something, does not mean we should. And I do not think that aborted babies should be used either. I might be being unfair here...... wait, no I'm not. Abortion is annother evil. These babies are not even just a few cells old, they have the shape, charecteristics, and mannerisms of a child. And everyday, they perform these for young girls who are in a "fix". I realize that these babies are just being thrown away (although I've heard that some aborted babies are being sold to scientits for stem cells:puz and that they could be put to good use, but they are not a tool, an item to utilize, they are human beings. Just seems wrong to take a little baby that had no chance to even take it's first breath and use it for its cells.


But hey, lots of lives could be saved right?

[edit on 15-5-2005 by seraph5]

You might not have to "kill" any babies at all. Research has shown that stem cells can be harvested from a avariety of places, such as an Adult Nose, Hair Follicles and even newborn babies without harming them:

Nose Stem Cells

Newborn Stem Cells

Hair Follicle Stem Cells

Originally posted by koji_K
my understanding is that a lot of stem cell cultures come from aborted foetuses, babies, call them what you will, which would otherwise just be disposed of. as long as you're going to have an abortion, why not use the byproduct to help the ill, instead of wasting it?

-koji K.

I don't mean to sound offensive, but SEE what I mean. "instead of wasting it". people act like these fetuses, embryos, babies, whatever you want to call them are "left overs". Wasting it.......

Originally posted by stumason
You might not have to "kill" any babies at all. Research has shown that stem cells can be harvested from a avariety of places, such as an Adult Nose, Hair Follicles and even newborn babies without harming them:

Nose Stem Cells

Newborn Stem Cells

Hair Follicle Stem Cells

Hey, i've never heard about the "nose stem cells". I like it hahaha

And i agree, they do have other means of getting these stem cells, adult stem cells (which are hard to isolate and culture so since they cost more money to use..., welll, they are not as atttractive to scientists) and umbilical cords. They are now discovering that there are stem cells all over the human body, and it is more of a money factor right now than anything else on why they are not using them more. There are a lot of researchers who are attempting to make the use of adult stem cells feasible.


Just no aborted babies or baby farms please!

NO...I don't believe stem cell research is an attempt to 'play God'. I think it's an attempt to use the knowledge and resources God has given us to improve/extend life.

The statement that you don't want embryonic cells from an aborted fetus used to help a quadreplegic, or a Parkinson's/Alzheimer's/M.S./ALS victim is just so downright wrong IMO. As stated earlier, the baby is gone - that life has been ended.

Is the following question really that hard to answer?

Which is the more respectful way to handle the remains of an ended life?

1. Throw it in the waste can.
2. Use it to make a lame man walk, a sick man healed, a blind man see.

It's a no-brainer for me.

I think that the reaction some give to embryonic research is a little skewed. Putting it into perspective, an aborted/disused foetus from fertilisation techniques (of which there are many!) are dead but still have uses. Same as a dead person we use for organ transplant. It is the same thing!

Why waste the potential that can be brought from using these (for want of a better term) wasted resources?

Especially those used in fertilisation, as the amount of embryos created and then subsequently wasted in order to give a childless couple even 1 child is immense. Why waste the potential they offer?

So Seraph5 you don’t want to be involved in stem cell research? I admire your opposition since any new development should be tempered by logical, free thinking and well informed individuals as this certainly helps to concentrate the efforts of those involved, regardless of your religious motivation, but do not think that your dissenting voice or even that of 10000 doctors or scientists will make really too much difference.

Stem cell research is still in its infancy as a medical potential but without doubt, as per all the other involvements that the ‘Powers That Be’ from the political/industrial complex that sponsor or even sit on the boards of Corporations, if there's a buck to be made, you can guarantee that the Corporations will find a way for legislation that is unrestrictive enough to be passed to allow them to utilise their opportunity; this is after all, just about the 'Holy Grail' for all medical researchers: A cure for all disease? (as long as you can afford it of course)

The very vast majority who aspire to be in the position to be able to have a comfortable life will want to know that if they contract lung cancer, they can be cured without surgery; Alzheimer’s Sir? here, pop this pill.

So you can dissent as much as you want, as long as it remains peaceful and I am sure your dissenting voice will help to result in certain concessions being made when this research is finally allowed to freely develop into a range of successful treatments, but please be assured that Mr & Mrs Joe & Jane Average will want this and will not really lose too much sleep over the ethical and moral implications.

Peace Out

Stem cell research is something we should support and I do. Decisions should not be made because religions say it is not right. It's so tiring listening and seeing how we are held back because of religions. God says it's bad so we can't do it....horsecrud! We would be much further along as a species if it weren't so. So to answer your question to Are we playing god? Yes because people believe they have to be the right wing of god and think they are doing the right thing by not wanting this research done. I don't believe in a god maybe thats why I see the good in this.

Might as well state now that I also don't kill babies or anything else for that matter nor do I do any other type of harm. If we can use the fetuses from clinics or grow these in labs then go for it. I don't believe in the human soul theory either obviously. We are animals just like any other believe it or not.

Originally posted by seraph5
I believe it is killing, whether or not the babies are dead to begin with, and I don't see how I could look myself in the eyes after i grew embryos, took out cells, threw the rest away.

First of all, how can you kill something that's already dead? Second of all, the main point a lot of us are trying to make is that you aren't growing the embryos. They've already been grown, and for whatever reason they were killed.

Originally posted by stumason
Putting it into perspective, an aborted/disused foetus from fertilisation techniques (of which there are many!) are dead but still have uses. Same as a dead person we use for organ transplant. It is the same thing!

Exactly!

If using already-dead fetuses is evil, then why not go against the organ donor program? Those people were once alive as well; wouldn't that be somewhat of a double standard? Shouldn't all of humanity be valued to the same degree? Hell, for that matter, shouldn't all life be valued to such a high degree? Shouldn't we stop the slaughter of cows and such for food? Shouldn't we stop the endless harvesting of corn and lettuce? I mean, why just stop with humans?

I know if my father ever gets to where he doesn't remember who I am and can't feed himself, then I'd really like to think society as a whole hasn't found a cure because there is no cure to be found. Not because it didn't want to take a couple of cells that were already going into the trash can and take a close look at them.

Theres a difference between using stem cells from a murdered baby and taking organs from someone who has died. Just get stem cells from your nose or umbillacal chord or wherever the hell else you can get it, but not from a murdered baby.

Originally posted by MCory1

Originally posted by seraph5
I believe it is killing, whether or not the babies are dead to begin with, and I don't see how I could look myself in the eyes after i grew embryos, took out cells, threw the rest away.

First of all, how can you kill something that's already dead? Second of all, the main point a lot of us are trying to make is that you aren't growing the embryos. They've already been grown, and for whatever reason they were killed.

Originally posted by stumason
Putting it into perspective, an aborted/disused foetus from fertilisation techniques (of which there are many!) are dead but still have uses. Same as a dead person we use for organ transplant. It is the same thing!

Exactly!

If using already-dead fetuses is evil, then why not go against the organ donor program? Those people were once alive as well; wouldn't that be somewhat of a double standard? Shouldn't all of humanity be valued to the same degree? Hell, for that matter, shouldn't all life be valued to such a high degree? Shouldn't we stop the slaughter of cows and such for food? Shouldn't we stop the endless harvesting of corn and lettuce? I mean, why just stop with humans?

I know if my father ever gets to where he doesn't remember who I am and can't feed himself, then I'd really like to think society as a whole hasn't found a cure because there is no cure to be found. Not because it didn't want to take a couple of cells that were already going into the trash can and take a close look at them.

No, I do not think it is the same thing. The organ donor has given himself to science by choice to help others. They usually have lived a full life, and these "babies" haven't. The aborted fetuses or grown embryos did not have this choice to have their bodies used.

I have NOTHING against other methods of isolating stem cells. THERE ARE OTHER WAYS, and I am very excited of all the plans they have for stem cells. I am not the only one who thinks this way, and I have noticed that the line is split down the middle, between religious and noreligious peoples.

I will never support ESC research. Sorry. I don't believe it is right. But I guess this is a decision everyone has to make for themselves. I think more people are for ESCs anyways, so I am fighting a losing battle.

Miscarried babies, as horrible as that sounds, would be an acceptable choice for me. These are babies that were aborted NATURALLY, nothing artificial about it. Body just rejects it so by choice of the mother, she could give this body to science. They just need a few starter lines because the ESCs grow so darn fast.