Formidable F-15/f-16 counterpart

Okay at least we got the "30 year old part" out of the way..

Nc brian, can you validate your staemetns on the F-16 and the F-15 vis-a vis the RAfale,eurofighter and Su30(MKI)..?

Fit a MiG 25 with those upgrades(russian upgrades even)..
Give a fictitious non-doppler radar like I was talking about..
Then It'll be a more than a match for the F-22/F-35 even, forget the F-15..

That's not true I don't care if you give the Mig-25 AESA radar and R-77’s it still wont be anywhere near a match for the Raptor. F-15 maybe but not the F-35 or F/A-22.

And you also have a very active imagination cooking up all you theories about alliances and secret tech face it currently the Raptor dominates and the F-15 can still kick A.

Well i never mentioned what aircraft was better. I can just say each aircraft you mention are very good at what they do. I believe the only one that is actually better than the F15 is the SU30, the others european fighters are in a different class of aircraft. Lets see some airframe facts:
F15e multirole fighter
- max t/o weight 81,000 lbs
-empty 45,000 lbs
-max speed 2.5 mach+

Eurofighter air to air/air to ground fighter
-max weight 50,700
-empty 24.200
max speed 2 mach

Rafale Intercepter; not multirole
-max ramp weight 49,560
-Bme 20950
max speed 2 mach

these two fighters dont even belong in the debate since they are much lighter and donot have the range nor speed of the F15 yes they are a more agile of an aircraft but designed for totally different purposes.Military Aircraft are usually designed to do something good and that is what they get used for, not to compete in who has the faster whose can do this or that, they are created to get a job done right. Just look at the F15s history and the F16 history both show they are not a aircraft to mess with. So in conclusion I would say by there history they are the better aircraft but not against the SU30.....yess i like this plane.

Why do you like so much about the Su-30? If you compare the tech/avionics and airframe specs of the F-15 and Su-30 you would see which fighter has the edge. Not to mention you must also include Pilots, support systems and numbers in any comparison because if you don't the its not realistic.

Originally posted by Daedalus3
That's again because of the avionics/radar/missiles..
The Aircraft has nothing to do with those..
Those are all modern day innovations.. as new or infact newer then these modern aircraft you're talking about..

Fit a MiG 25 with those upgrades(russian upgrades even)..
Give a fictitious non-doppler radar like I was talking about..
Then It'll be a more than a match for the F-22/F-35 even, forget the F-15..

At BVR combat it comes down to the modern day trio avionics/radar/missiles..
The weapons platform is of no consequence anymore..

I state again.. "its the modern day tech onboard the F-15 thats enabling comparisions between itself and the modern fighters/tech, not the F-15 platform of 70's vintage.."

Yeah, foreign countries had to get their hands on American Intel Pentium 3 and 4 chips to design their avionics, electronics, weapons.

Edited out the big-quote violation

[edit on 28-4-2005 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Why do you like so much about the Su-30? If you compare the tech/avionics and airframe specs of the F-15 and Su-30 you would see which fighter has the edge. Not to mention you must also include Pilots, support systems and numbers in any comparison because if you don't the its not realistic.

yes the SU-30 has the edge...

roughly equal radar but the SU-30 has better engagment range

The SU30 is a good aircraft , and the F15 is a great aircraft, but russian aircraft always had a side that drawn me to them. Now yes it is true put a pilot in the seat and see which one is better... and yes the F15 would probably come out on top, but if a American fighter pilot had the SU30 on hand I believe he would use this aircraft instead, after finding out all of its capabilitys. But one thing is certain
if we are going to talk about flankers we need not to forget the SU37 Super flanker probably the best aircraft in russian history. For the F16, again I can not compare this to either one of these aircraft since it is like a motorcycle compared to a car. Just two different machines that fly.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Why do you like so much about the Su-30? If you compare the tech/avionics and airframe specs of the F-15 and Su-30 you would see which fighter has the edge. Not to mention you must also include Pilots, support systems and numbers in any comparison because if you don't the its not realistic.

Then compare nah..!!
Stat for Stat, spec for spec..
I did that with somebody before on ATS.. and we ended like so..

The AESA can track a few more targets than the N0-11M.. so that only makes a diff if there are more than 50 planes in the sky at one time..
The Su-30 has better missiles..
It can turn within the F-15 etc etc..
And about those alliances..just wait and watch..
China and Russia dont hate each other.. at least not anymore..
It doesn't make me (an Indian) feel any better, but its true..
Israel's like France, it won't waste too much time with the US if it sees greenr pastures elsewhere..




[edit on 28-4-2005 by Daedalus3]

I think that the latest of russian planes are better because a US official himself admitted that they were better. Someone here posted it in a thread a while ago.

They want more F/A-22’s what else are they going to say.

“Yes, senator the F-15 is perfectly capable of performing all of the required air dominance capability that we require. Yes Senator that is correct, it can shot down even the new Russian and export fighters, but we still want more Raptors so if you don't mind can you give us billions for the F/A-22."

C'mon you know that not goings happen.

You have to know the Senators are not stupid and they probably know the capabilities of the Eagles, which is why they are starting to build more Raptors to counter the threat to the F-15s from the Su-30s.

You must compare an RAF Tornado to an F-15E (and the tonka is a better platform for a strike package - sorry but its true)


NWguy83

American Intel pentium`s?

what about American AMD Athlon`s?


all built in Taiwan!

Originally posted by WestPoint23
They want more F/A-22’s what else are they going to say.

“Yes, senator the F-15 is perfectly capable of performing all of the required air dominance capability that we require. Yes Senator that is correct, it can shot down even the new Russian and export fighters, but we still want more Raptors so if you don't mind can you give us billions for the F/A-22."

C'mon you know that not goings happen.

then why make an excuse for the F-22,
if the F-15 as you said "is perfectly capable of handling all modern day aircraft"
Hell.. why make the F-22 at all..
There is a reason the USAF sees the need for the F-22.. And if that reason is NOT to counter topline fighters of today( All you guys think the F-115 is more than capable of doing so)..
Then WHAT is the reason??
Why does the USAF need the F-22?
If there be a good enough erason then put it forth to congress!!
No need to "lose" combat exercises with other AFs on purpose and then use that deception as a means for getting the F-22 ..

I've been seeing the likes of this straw man arguement ever since Cope India..

To shut your mouths, I'll put it this way.

Either they needed the F-22s to:

1. Counter threats from modern day fighters like the Su-30 etc

OR

2. Counter threats from future dedicated A2A fighters like the PAK-FA etc.

Which one is it, you decide yourself, but you know the truth

You have to know the Senators are not stupid and they probably know the capabilities of the Eagles, which is why they are starting to build more Raptors to counter the threat to the F-15s from the Su-30s.

Wrong, the number of raptors went down from 830 to 520 and is now frozen at 339.

NWguy83

American Intel pentium`s?

what about American AMD Athlon`s?


all built in Taiwan!

And your point is? Do you know how many factories Microsoft has outside the U.S.? Microsoft just uses Taiwanese workers to build their products because its cheaper over there, but it doest men the product is not owned by us.

then why make an excuse for the F-22,
if the F-15 as you said "is perfectly capable of handling all modern day aircraft"
Hell.. why make the F-22 at all..

Because the F-15 is 30 years old and its service life hours are running low, you also have to look at whether the F-15 will be able to defeat future threats.
The Raptor is way more capable than the F-15 so the USAF would get a better fighter capable of defeating all current and future threats.

I've been seeing the likes of this straw man argument ever since Cope India..

If you look at the facts of what actually happened on that exercise then you will know that the F-15 will perform better against the Su-30 if it was allowed to have all of its latest systems.

Future threats like? So far, the only thing that can even be compared is the Eurofighter, and unless Germany/Italy decide to form an Axis again, they will not be used against the Raptors. Also, what is the nearest Russian equivalent? T-50 PAK-FA? Su-47/S-47 Berkut? MiG-1.44? So far, the Russians only have 4.5th generation planes in service, and all the 5th generation planes are actually only drawing board sketches (PAK-FA) or just technology demonstraters (Su-47,1.44).

Wherelse, the F-15 (frontline US fighter) actually faces a threat from the Su-30, the Su-30 actually has the first shot advantage at BVR ranges, since the R-77 outranges the AMRAAM in range and probably manoverability as well. They can't just see a Su-30 and avoid its radar detection and send more fighters (F-15s again) to intercept it like what AWACs usually do, so if a conflict with China/any other nation with Su-30s occured, they would have aerial superiority, which is very important in today's wars.

Originally posted by WestPoint23


Because the F-15 is 30 years old and its service life hours are running low, you also have to look at whether the F-15 will be able to defeat future threats.
The Raptor is way more capable than the F-15 so the USAF would get a better fighter capable of defeating all current and future threats.

Then go and tell your congress that!
I'm sure they'll take more kindly to the simple truth than the USAF fixing war-exercises, and trying to deceive the congress..

If you look at the facts of what actually happened on that exercise then you will know that the F-15 will perform better against the Su-30 if it was allowed to have all of its latest systems.

Ah.. but thats what we're trying to find out here aren't we?
Scroll up and read the last 10 to15 posts..
Thats is the topic if discussion
You keep on saying
"if you look and the facts", "if you compare the two aircraft" etc. etc.
But thats what I've been doing for the past 2 months and frankly I don't see any conclusive difference..
Others infact seem to think that the Su-30 has a definite edge over the F-15..

THis site gives the Su-35(Su-30MKI is a two seater upgrade of that) to F-15C
kill ratio as 0.8:1!!

And its not even russian..

Aircraft Odds vs. Su-35
Lockheed Martin/Boeing F-22 Raptor 10.1:1
Eurofighter Typhoon 4.5:1
Dassault-Breguet Rafale C 1.0:1
Sukhoi Su-35 'Flanker' 1.0:1
McDonnell Douglas F-15C Eagle 0.8:1
Boeing F/A-18+ 0.4:1
McDonnell Douglas F/A-18C 0.3:1
General Dynamics F-16C 0.3:1

www.eurofighter.starstreak.net...


[edit on 1-5-2005 by Daedalus3]

In that simulator both fighters the Su-35 and the F-15 were flown by capable western pilots. The site say that the F-15C was used but it does not say if they used AESA radar or Doppler for the F-15.

Listen while the F-15 is not as capable as the F/A-22, but its still capable of shooting down Su-30’s and 35’s. The USAF just naturally wants something better as it snot good to say with one aircraft for too long.

the simulation was conducted by scientists and engineers from both europe and the USA...

they simply would not sabotage their own results... they are not trying to prove anything, but actually examine and understand

Originally posted by WestPoint23

NWguy83

American Intel pentium`s?

what about American AMD Athlon`s?


all built in Taiwan!

And your point is? Do you know how many factories Microsoft has outside the U.S.? Microsoft just uses Taiwanese workers to build their products because its cheaper over there, but it doest men the product is not owned by us.

i do believe the irony is lost upon you