Formidable F-15/f-16 counterpart

Do you think that there is or will ever be a formidable non-us airplane that can beat the F-15 and F-16 in the near future. There has been recent evidence in a training exercise that that Indian Sukhoi's had gotten 90% of their American counterparts in in exercises during operation Cope Thunder . The Eurofighter and the Su-30 MKI are comparable to the F-15 and F-16. This is one of the reasons why the United States made a good decision to make the F-22. The rest of the world is quickly catching up.

Eurofighter:

There has been recent evidence in a training exercise that that Indian Sukhoi's had gotten 90% of their American counterparts in in exercises during operation Cope Thunder.

Taking nothing away from the excellent training of the Indian pilots and the Su-30's, this may be of some interest to you and others?

The reasons for the drubbing have gone largely unexplained and been misunderstood, according to those based here with the 3rd Wing who participated. Two major factors stand out: None of the six 3rd Wing F-15Cs was equipped with the newest long-range, active electronically scanned array (AESA) radars. These Raytheon APG-63(V)2 radars were designed to find small and stealthy targets. At India's request, the U.S. agreed to mock combat at 3-to-1 odds and without the use of simulated long-range, radar-guided AIM-120 Amraams that even the odds with beyond-visual-range kills.

And more here:

Generally the combat scenario was to have four F-15s flying at any time against about 12 Indian aircraft. While the U.S. pilots normally train to four versus 12, that takes into account at least two of the U.S. aircraft having AESA radar and being able to make the first, beyond-visual-range shots. For the exercise, both sides restricted long-range shots.

"That's what the Indians wanted to do," Snowden says. "That [handicap] really benefits a numerically superior force because you can't whittle away some of their force at long range. They were simulating active missiles [including] AA-12s." This means the missile has its own radar transmitter and doesn't depend on the launch aircraft's radar after launch. With the older AA-10 Alamo, the launching fighter has to keep its target illuminated with radar so the U.S. pilots would know when they were being targeted. But with the AA-12, they didn't know if they had been targeted. The Mirage 2000s carried the active Mica missile. Aerospace industry officials said that some of the radars the U.S. pilots encountered, including that of the Mirage 2000s, exhibited different characteristics than those on standard versions of the aircraft.

3rd Wing Explains 'Cope India' Exercise

Another thing, they were not running against F-15E's, they running against F-15C's.

But hey, the IAF will be going against the Israli F-16s soon and then in November, they will be going against the USAF F-16s. I can imagine what the restrictions will be this time.

As for the "rest of the world catching up".....
Are you refering to the capabilities of the F-16s and F-15s [if so, which versions] or the F-22s?






seekerof

[edit on 16-4-2005 by Seekerof]

Well, the F-15 and F-16, though excellent jets, are not the best in the U.S. arsenal.

Put the IAF against the F-22's, I think we'd see a different picture.

-wD

Those F-15C's went 3 to 1 against Mig-21's.
The odds were uneven to match the tech levels and capabilities of the aircrafts. i.e 3 mig-21's = 1 f-15


So what if the F-15's didnt have their latest radar, india's Su-30's too did'nt have its latest electronically scanned phased array radar.

India brought the Su-30 K, not the Su-30 MKI.

read raj-khalsa's post's on this page >> www.abovetopsecret.com...

another related thread :

F-15 customer's worried after air exercises



[edit on 16-4-2005 by Stealth Spy]

Erm no, StealthSpy, what does this say?

The Indians flew a number of different fighters, including the French-made Mirage 2000 and the Russian-made MIG-27 and MIG-29, but the two most formidable IAF aircraft proved to be the MIG-21 Bison, an upgraded version of the Russian-made baseline MIG-21, and the SU-30K Flanker, also made in Russia, Neubeck said. He emphasized the fact that U.S. forces were always outnumbered in these scenarios, but said the missions proved more difficult than expected.

USAF: Indian Exercises Showed Need For F/A-22, Changes In Training

Seems those 3-to-1 ratios were not simply against MiG-21s.
You call the MiG-21 match "uneven" and yet the article I have linked refutes what you are saying?
Let me emphasize what it says:

...but the two most formidable IAF aircraft proved to be the MIG-21 Bison, an upgraded version of the Russian-made baseline MIG-21, and the SU-30K Flanker...

The thing here is that you, as with others, do not want to admit that the advantage was to the IAF from the get go. Again, this is not to belittle the exceptional training of the Indian pilots. With or without restrictions, the USAF did learn a few things. The exercise was good for both sides.




seekerof

[edit on 16-4-2005 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by eurofighter
Do you think that there is or will ever be a formidable non-us airplane that can beat the F-15 and F-16 in the near future........

......The Eurofighter is comparable to the F-15 and F-16.

Most amusing.

(what a pity no one took the 'bait')

Also stealthspy the F-15's did not have the Aim-120 missile the U.S.' most advanced medium to long A2A missile. Like the pilots said the IAF requested that the F-15’s not have first shot capability.

There's a lot of hardware out there now that is capable of going toe to toe with the F-16 and F-15. The Mig-29, Su-27/30, late models of Mirage 2000, the Eurofighter, Rafale, Gripen, J-10 - all are viable threats to the Eagle & Falcon, other factors being equal. What gives the USAF it's biggest advantage is training and tactics, along with excellent AEW, tanker, and C3I support. Not just the capabilities of it's airframes, but the whole package.

Since Korea though, the USAF has always been up against substantially inferior opponents. In Korea, the USAF dominated despite going up against Soviet WW2 veterans flying state of the art Mig-15's, which was no small feat.

[edit on 16-4-2005 by xmotex]

xmotex wrote:

What gives the USAF it's biggest advantage is training and tactics, along with excellent AEW, tanker, and C3I support. Not just the capabilities of it's airframes, but the whole package.

Don't forget about the Tomahawks that go in before them to destroy hostile air defenses, command and control facilities, runways, and parked aircraft!

Some of those aircraft you mentioned are all newer and one is even a 5th generation jet, yet the F-15 and F-16 can still duke it out with them.

In a simulated exercise, 1 Su-35 was lost for every 1.3 Eagles shot down. Quite impressive considering a Su-30 has better avonics and other things compared to it and the simulation included the use of AESA radars. With the F-22s the ratio was 1:10 though, but in times of war it will be different, the US will have the upper hand with AWACs, tankers, intel and other stuff.

As for duke it out with them, it depends on what you mean. A MiG-21 can also duke it out with a F-22 if you mean just engaging.

Originally posted by xmotex
There's a lot of hardware out there now that is capable of going toe to toe with the F-16 and F-15. The Mig-29, Su-27/30, late models of Mirage 2000, the Eurofighter, Rafale, Gripen, J-10 - all are viable threats to the Eagle & Falcon, other factors being equal.

I don't think Gripen, Mirage 2000, and Mig-29 would have a chance in AA combat against newest AESA equipped Eagles. Especially in BVR.
And I have read Rafale ESA radar has small range(because it's pasive array) when compared to AESA or mechanicaly steered Dopler radar (like that one on Typhoon). It has smaller RCS though...

If it has a smaller range but still above its missles' max range then its all ok. I can just imagine a Su-30 pilot detecting a F-15 at 100km away and launching a missle 60 km away while the F-15 detects the Su-30 175km away but only being able to launch an AAMRAAM 45 km away. So, a better radar is not as useful as it is believed to be.

this is from an american source :

The US Air Force claims the F-15C is in several respects inferior to, or at best equal to, the MiG-29, Su-27, Su-35/37, Rafale, and EF-2000, which are variously superior in acceleration, maneuverability, engine thrust, rate of climb, avionics, firepower, radar signature, or range. Although the F-15C and Su-27P series are similar in many categories, the Su-27 can outperform the F-15C at both long and short ranges. In long-range encounters, with its superiorr radar the Su-27 can launch a missile before the F-15C does, so from a purely kinematic standpoint, the Russian fighters outperform the F-15C in the beyond-visual-range fight. The Su-35 phased array radar is superior to the APG-63 Doppler radar in both detection range and tracking capabilities. Additionally, the Su-35 propulsion system increases the aircraft’s maneuverability with thrust vectoring nozzles.

Simulations conducted by British Aerospace and the British Defense Research Agency compared the effectiveness of the F-15C against the Russian Su-35 armed with active radar missiles similar to the AIM-120 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile (AMRAAM). The F-15C, losing 1.3 Eagles for each Su-35 destroyed.

www.fas.org...

and read this too ...

Su-30MK Beats F-15C 'Every Time' in USAF simulations


this too is an article publiched in an american mag, Aviation Week and Space Technology and is authored by David A. Fulghum and Douglas Barrie, americans themselves.

Stealth spy, I was talking about the Mig-29, Mirage-2000 and Gripen., not Su-27/30. For me it looks like the only chance those planes have against F-15 is dogfight.
And I wonder if the APG-63 radar to which is Su-35 PA superior is the newest AESA version, or the old one.

SAAB Gripen


read the specs - it can detect fighter sized targets at 120km`s , and can track 4 targets at the same time - it is also armed with AMRAAM and soon to be Meteor. So it is a very capable BVR fighter

Originally posted by Harlequin
SAAB Gripen


read the specs - it can detect fighter sized targets at 120km`s , and can track 4 targets at the same time - it is also armed with AMRAAM and soon to be Meteor. So it is a very capable BVR fighter

I agree it is capable BVR fighter, but it's better than F-15 with AESA?

a moot point , as both are armed with AMRAAM , so missile ranges are very similar.

Originally posted by Harlequin
a moot point , as both are armed with AMRAAM , so missile ranges are very similar.

The pilot who detects enemy first has more time to "prepare" for BVR combat - for example to gain altitude and accelerate with afterburners to give the misille more energy/range when launched.

[edit on 17-4-2005 by longbow]