Anti-Labour - Why?

I have noticed in this section that there seem to be a lot of people who come across as being anti-labour. Why? May I ask...

Sure, a lot of people oppose the war in Iraq and believe that the current occupation is wrong, I agree with you, but I still feel that Labour is a good strong government to have in power.

Who else will we have in? The Conservatives? The Liberals? Oh yeah, I'm sure they'll do our country a great deal. Lets have a look at when the conservatives were last in power, the country went into recession. The conservatives are only good for the people with power, people with money, they will, (I say they will only because they did last time), privatise everything leaving out the working family. The Labour party has increased employment dramatically and turned around the mess that the Conservatives created.

Yeah so what if we are fighting the war for the wrong reasons, it's happened and it's not going to stop, why don't we now concentrate on keeping Britain's currently strong (thanks to Mr. Gordon Brown) economy. Gordon Brown has done wonders for Britain's economy and I applaud him on his success. He is one of the strongest figures we have ever had in his position.

It just really gets to me when people put down Labour when they have done so much good for this country. Yeah they've messed up on a few things but your not going to have a perfect party. I can assure you that they are doing a lot better than if any of the other parties were in power.

[edit on 12-4-2005 by phixion]

Originally posted by phixion
when the conservatives were last in power, the country went into recession.

- Twice!
Thatcher's early 1980's recession followed by the late 1980's - early 1990's recession under Major (who was Chancellor and then PM, so extra responsibility for him, eh?
......and not forgetting Michael Howard who was a senior cabinet minister and so shares collective responsibility for those events, right ?)

The conservatives are only good for the people with power, people with money, they will, (I say they will only because they did last time), privatise everything leaving out the working family.

- Well there isn't a lot left to privatise but yes, I agree, as their health proposals show they are still all about shifting resources from the public sector (ie the NHS) into the private sector.

Same sh*t, different election.

The Labour party has increased unemployment dramatically and turned around the mess that the Conservatives created.

- Er, I think you mean Labour has increased employment to record levels and cut British unemployment to the low levels not seen in over 35yrs.

Hands up who remembers tory politicians trying to convince the British public 'full employment' was never going to return and that we had to get used to mass unemployment as 'a fact of real life'?

I suppose those without personal experience of the double deep recessions, mass unemployment and the staggering cost of maintaining a mortgage with interest rates at the level the tories had them (for years on end) don't really appreciate it.

Yeah so what if we are fighting the war for the wrong reasons, it's happened and it's not going to stop

- Yeah but let's be real about this.
If it had been a tory gov that had sent the troops the tory press in the UK would be soiling their 'Y's' with joy at the 'firmness' and 'great leadership' they were demonstrating and how the protesters were a bunch of anti-American loony lefties intent on destroying everything Holy and British.

Gordon Brown has done wonders for Britain's economy and I applaud him on his success. He is one of the strongest figures we have ever had in his position.

- Yeah but haven't you heard?
Labour have been in for 8yrs so anything bad is totally down to them - except for the economy which is (still) all thanks to the tories who, despite making such a boll*cks of things - never being able to string more than 3 - 4 'good' years together in their near 20 term - somehow managed to leave it all just nicely for Labour.

(not that this line of 'reasoning' would ever credit Labour for - even if you believe this tosh - keeping things going so well for so long)

your not going to have a perfect party. I can assure you that they are doing a lot better than if any of the other parties were in power.

- Yeah but all they have to say is 'we've changed' a few times and because some people are instinctively tory minded they will be just falling over themselves to vote for the b*ggers.

It's like the current guff about whether or not they plan actual 'cuts'.

Funny how they haven't "changed" sufficiently to not be trying to pull the wool with a re-run of that nonsense they tried in 1979 where they claim 'oh no, we're not going to "cut" anything, we're just going to increase spending at a lower rate'!

But then when did a tory politician not rely on people's short memories?


[edit on 12-4-2005 by sminkeypinkey]

omg...I may not like the Conservatives but will Labour supporters look at their current policy rather than refering to the past all the time, are you telling me that their policy is the same......?!?

Originally posted by UK Wizard
will Labour supporters look at their current policy ...... are you telling me that their policy is the same......?!?

- No, of course not.
There is a visible change at work.

But, check the tory message and tell me what has fundamentally changed?
It's still the usual public=always bad, private= always good.
It's still tax cuts slanted toward the already wealthy.
It's still - if there's 'room' - tax cuts before public investment.
It's still the usual diversion of taxpayers - public - money into private hands.
It's still the BNP-lite angle on immigration.
It's still the Alf Garnet 'anyone on benefits = scrounger'.
It's still 'there isn't a 'problem' that can't be solved with an even harsher 'line''.

In other words there is absolutely no reason to think that their use of the words "we've changed" means anything real at all, nor that we would not get a repeat of many of the disasterous experiences they brought us 1st time around.


[edit on 12-4-2005 by sminkeypinkey]

I am not for Conservervative but nor am a true Labour supporter. I would vote labour because I feel they are the best of the bunch, not that they are amazing.

I also feel that it is a farse how all the conservative advertising is done on making Labour look back, it's just pointing out what Labour have messed up on, they don't seem to have any of their own policies.




[edit on 12-4-2005 by phixion]

Originally posted by phixion
I am not for Conservervative but nor am a true Labour supporter. I would vote labour because I feel they are the best of the bunch, not that they are amazing.

- Of course, there's none of them perfect.
Just some with a track record a damned sight better and a damned sight worse.
(and many of us prefer to look at their actual actions when they were in power beyond the honeyed words)

I also feel that it is a farse how all the conservative advertising is done on making Labour look back, it's just pointing out what Labour have messed up on, they don't seem to have any of their own policies.

- They seem less keen on having the 'adult debate' needed IMO.

They don't like to talk about the hospital cleaning problems pretty much began when they were in office and their privatisation of the cleaning contracts.

That's what you get with this dumb low tax/tax-cutting 'orthodoxy'.
All there are are private contractors doing the job nowadays and the legal requirement was that health authorities had to favour the cheapest......and when set against a new childrens ward or scanner sadly cleaning - in the recent seriously cash strapped times - has become something less than the priority it should have been.

Thankfully rigorous contracts that can be cancelled overnight are now part of the health authority armourery.

But then the tories are still talking "efficiency" and " cutting waste" which = guess what, hmm?
Back to more of the same, eh?
ie no real actual change whatsoever. Surprise surprise. Who'd a thunk it from much the same 'cast', eh?

They also are keen on not pointing out that the only reason we have any clue about the MRSA bug is because the Labour gov introduced the requirememnt to collect and collate the stats.

God Knows what it was under them cos we can have no clue as the data was not recorded then.



[edit on 12-4-2005 by sminkeypinkey]

Ha today guess what I saw...




Took a picture with my phone:

Looks like Labour are trying to get Conservatives back at their own game. All these advertisements just seem to be cheap shots to me, why don't they advertise what they're going to do if they get in power, not what the other party did last time.


[edit on 13-4-2005 by phixion]

Originally posted by phixion


Looks like Labour are trying to get Conservatives back at their own game. All these advertisements just seem to be cheap shots to me,

The 35million cuts aren't that true, its simply more spin for the public to eat, they are simply cheap shots as you said.

why don't they advertise what they're going to do if they get in power, not what the other party did last time.

Because they believe 'bashing' the opposition will get them more votes, I'd be much happier if parties stuck to their policys rather than bashing each other with spin and propaganda.

[edit on 13-4-2005 by UK Wizard]

To be honest, theres so much anti-labour because they have messed up on KEY things that make britain so much better than most countries. the NHS we have the joy of getting free dental, medical treatment etc.

violent crime risen no matter what the BBC liars say. gun crime has increased as has racially motivated crime. Immigration the simple facts are Multi culturism just doesn't work it causes more problems that in solves for each time one culture slips up the other will take advantage and so forth. I could go on but i have to go lol. and I may only be 15 but please dont take me for an idiot.

Originally posted by UK Wizard
The 35million cuts aren't that true, its simply more spin for the public to eat, they are simply cheap shots as you said.

- No they are not just "spin" and "cheap shots" Wizard.
This is important stuff and far from "cheap" small stuff.

The tories are trying to pull their usual garbage trick of pretending they will not "cut" but rather 'increase spending but at a lower rate' (which is exactly what they said from 1979 on.....

.....and look at the state of the public services got into under them and with this approach last time).

The fact remains that compared to Labour's spending plans the tories will spend (ie invest) approx (at least) £35billion less in the public services.

Because they believe 'bashing' the opposition will get them more votes, I'd be much happier if parties stuck to their policys rather than bashing each other with spin and propaganda.

- So saying you intend to invest £35billion more in the public services is not informing the public about a key policy dfference, hmmm?

[Quote]Originally posted by yuanashao101
To be honest, theres so much anti-labour because they have messed up on KEY things that make britain so much better than most countries. the NHS we have the joy of getting free dental, medical treatment etc.

- Actually you'll find the NHS dentistry problems are the direct result of the tory closure of the NHS dentist's training scheme and their disasterous dentistry funding arrangements which drove so many dentists out of the service never to return.

Do you know how long it takes to train a dentist?

violent crime risen no matter what the BBC liars say. gun crime has increased as has racially motivated crime.

- Some aspects of violent crime is (marginally) up as is some aspects of gun crime but both remain, thankfully, at a low level in this country no matter what the those attempting to score points with the numbers might claim.

Immigration the simple facts are Multi culturism just doesn't work it causes more problems that in solves for each time one culture slips up the other will take advantage and so forth.

- Really.

OK, lets see you go back to where your family came from cos one thing is certain you and yours are originally immigrants - like any part of humanity in the UK today you and yours sure as hell didn't spring into being in Britain.


[edit on 13-4-2005 by sminkeypinkey]

A general question whats wrong with privatisation ?
Sure it has its down sides like with the railways here in NZ one bunch of idoits after another has run the rail network. Without econmic regulation the railways wouldnt be working wonders if the government ran the rail network either.
Take a look at the american health system sure you pay for the seat you sit on but your not waiting for months on the urgent waiting list.

The big problem is that "consertives" expect people to pay for more while earning less and taxs go up.

Originally posted by xpert11
A general question whats wrong with privatisation ?

- In some areas nothing whatsoever.

IMO it is undoubtedly the case that the private sector is a more appropriate means of executing a particular function in some areas of our activity.

The thing is that - IMO - the opposite also applies, something many 'conservatives' just will not accept.

In healthcare most noteably for example. This is one area where the 'profit motive' is most inappropriate.

Public health funding, or most typically in continental Europe's case majority public funding with compulsory health insurance, doesn't mean an instant panacea either but when viewed overall we in Britain/Europe believe the results are better than a fully private system.
(so long as it is operated in an environment where funding is maintained at 'normal' levels - as opposed to slashed back by those ideologically intent on this then demonstarting how terrible the public sector is ie the British tory experience 1979 - 1997).

Sure it has its down sides like with the railways here in NZ one bunch of idoits after another has run the rail network. Without econmic regulation the railways wouldnt be working wonders if the government ran the rail network either.

- The problem in the UK is that the privatisation of the rail network has, so far, been pretty much disasterous and the network is running (with few exceptions) at a lower standard than that when it was in public ownership.

This is an area in particular where the profit motive has been deemed to have come before passanger safety, an intollerable situation.

In fact following a huge accident the network was thoroughly checked over and huge parts of the network has to be closed down for vital safety maintenance once it was discovered by just how much the private sector had omitted the regular maintenance and repairs (and crucially the checking of the work done).

Take a look at the american health system sure you pay for the seat you sit on but your not waiting for months on the urgent waiting list.

- Well there's a tad more to it than that. You can find yourself diagnosed with an on-going or very expensive problem your HMO refuses to fund and be left facing a staggering bill for treatment or, em, er, just go away and die.

I also have family here in the UK with private insurance, similarly, contract something aweful (cancer) or ongoing (a degenerating heart condition) and watch the private people first jack up the health insurance premiums massively and then shortly after walk away and send you right back to the NHS (the publicly funded British 'National Health Service' for those that don't know) anyway!

(Then there is the whole parasitic relationship where the private sector 'externalises' the costs of training and developing medical staff.....ie the tax-payer funds the training and many years developing the experience of nurses and doctors and consultants, not - ever - the private sector.
But that is another issue. )

.....and since NHS investment has risen to near European levels thanks to our current Labour gov you'll find the waiting times a lot shorter in the UK than they ever were before; not perfect by any means nor problem free but undisputably better.
....and long waits in the comparable western continental European countries are practically unheard of.

I'd rather the UK looked to Europe for inspiration on any of this than the ghastly US system. How many are not catered for there and have to rely on 'charity', huh?

The big problem is that "consertives" expect people to pay for more while earning less and taxs go up.

- Yup, and they also can be relied upon to repeat their usual and constant BS that the funding help they do give goes mainly to those already well off, not those in the most need of it.


[edit on 16-4-2005 by sminkeypinkey]

I'd rather the UK looked to Europe for inspiration on any of this than the ghastly US system. How many are not catered for there and have to rely on 'charity', huh?

I agree the American health system isnt perfect but I would rather take my chances with the free market rather then be on some "urgent" waiting list. While Im glad that waiting lists have gone down in England here in NZ the current Labour government is a joke.

I reckon health insurance should cover the likes of cancer treatment and day surgerys for example and the likes of GP vists should be partial covered.

Also insurance companys have a nasty habbit of including large amounts of small print in there contracts with customers that can prove to be a rude shock if some one hasnt read the small print.

Originally posted by xpert11
I would rather take my chances with the free market rather then be on some "urgent" waiting list.

- OK, but bear in mind that in the UK we have instant admission for emergency cases (of course) and the maximum wait for a cancer referral to be seen by a consultant in hospital is now 2wks.

I doubt any private scheme can significantly (or more to the point 'meaningfully') beat that regardless of what you pay.

While Im glad that waiting lists have gone down in England here in NZ the current Labour government is a joke.

- I suppose it's probably fair to say either private or public method can be done well or badly.
I just don't like the profit motive being in there in health matters; shareholders and their 'return' are about as low a priority as I can imagine in health care.

I reckon health insurance should cover the likes of cancer treatment and day surgerys for example and the likes of GP vists should be partial covered.

- Like I said, my own actual 1st hand knowledge of how private medicine works in the UK is that contracting something like cancer is a recipe for rocketing premiums and shortly after (if the situation is on-going and likely to be lengthy) a refusal to insure any longer.

(.....and they are very keen on booting people off 'their books' the older they get too.)

Also insurance companys have a nasty habbit of including large amounts of small print in there contracts with customers that can prove to be a rude shock if some one hasnt read the small print.

- Ain't that the truth.

[edit on 17-4-2005 by sminkeypinkey]

Let me tell you about Labour's jaundiced view oof things.

Council Tax - Fact 1: John (3 Jags) Prescott arranged the Council Tax Law so that he and his cronies - politicians, councillors and mayors [of all parties] don't have to pay their fair share of the tax, if they use their second or third homes for 'official' business.

Council Tax - Fact 2: Servicemen and women who are on operational tours throughout the world, have to pay full council tax because they live in this country for 6 months of each year. Before you shout, YES, they do get a reduced rate - but why should they pay for something they don't use?

Council Tax - Fact 3: Servicemen and women in Afghanistan and Iraq must pay full council tax - even though their tour of duty is not less than 1 calender year!

Council Tax - Fact 4: I currently live in a 3 bedroomed married quarter that is 'condemned' and is falling apart at the seams. It is awaiting demolition and it's current value is treble zero, buggar all, blank! Yet I have to pay £850 a year. Not fair is it?

NHS - Fact 1: Labour keeps saying it plows billions of pounds into the NHS. Really? Recently I was diagnosed with a large 'lump' on my right testicle. An appointment with a specialist was urgently requested. The waiting list I went on, was the waiting list for the 'official' waiting list. In the meantime, my 'lump' was getting bigger. After a year, I saw the specialist who said I needed an operation. Guess what? I went on another waiting list! In the meantime, my lump was getting bigger. Eventually, I had the operation and no, it was not cancer. But can you imagine what I was going through?

From initial doctor's appointment to recovery ward - 19 months. Not bad for a government who promised operations within 6 months!

NHS - Fact 2: In my spare time, I work as an ambulance Technician. As such, I have seen at first hand the results of Labour's billions. I don't know where they are going, but they certainly are not going to the 'frontline'!

Defence - Fact 1: Our troops in Afghanistan and Iraq are ill equipped. There are massive shortages of ammunition, spare parts, body armour and boots (all essential items, you'll agree!)

Defence - Fact 2: Bowman radios. Labour gave the go ahead for this radio. It arrived late, was overpriced, it does not work and the batteries have a tendancy to 'burst into flames' when hot.

Defence - Fact 3: Hoon the Loon has decided to 'shoot now - pay later' on Barclaycard. His decision not to stockpile vital items of equipment buy to purchase on a 'as and when' basis has surely come home to roost.

Defence - Fact 4: The 'new' aircraft carriers supposed to be operational by 2012, have no aircraft because Labour has opted for the JSF which is too heavy to operate from carriers!

Manafucturing - Fact 1: Since Labour came to power, more than 1M manufacturing jobs have been lost - the latest being Rover.

Manufacturing - Fact 2: Many small businesses have gone to the 'wall' because of Labour's small business taxes and the mountain of paperwork that goes with it.

Oh I just can't be bothered to go on and on.

Labour is all about spin, and most politicians get more out of us then we get from them.

Originally posted by fritz
Let me tell you about Labour's jaundiced view oof things.

- By relating your own "jaundiced" view?

Council Tax - Fact 1: John (3 Jags) Prescott arranged the Council Tax Law so that he and his cronies - politicians, councillors and mayors [of all parties] don't have to pay their fair share of the tax, if they use their second or third homes for 'official' business.

- The council tax and almost every one of it's provisions are a tory invention.

It was designed and brought in by John Majoor's tory gov to replace the disasterous 'poll tax' the tories had invented and imposed on the UK (spawning the huge civil disturbances, country-wide non-payment etc many of us remember so well).
Council tax under Labour might be unpopular (but then which taxes are?) but nothing like the trouble the tory poll tax was.

Council Tax - Fact 2: Servicemen and women who are on operational tours throughout the world, have to pay full council tax because they live in this country for 6 months of each year. Before you shout, YES, they do get a reduced rate - but why should they pay for something they don't use?

- I suggest you go and moan to the tory party then about their system for funding local gov and the provisions they made in it, then.

You could complain that Labour could (or should) have changed those provisions but let's not leave out the inventors of the thing, eh?

Labour are currently investigating a replacement for the council tax but it's a tricky one with few options likely to please all.

Council Tax - Fact 3: Servicemen and women in Afghanistan and Iraq must pay full council tax - even though their tour of duty is not less than 1 calender year!

- Then go lobby your MP and the gov......

......and remember to go and moan at the tory party for their usual hypocritical lies about 'supporting' the nations servicemen and women.....cos we don't want to forget just who devised the council tax in the first place, do we?.

Council Tax - Fact 4: I currently live in a 3 bedroomed married quarter that is 'condemned' and is falling apart at the seams. It is awaiting demolition and it's current value is treble zero, buggar all, blank! Yet I have to pay £850 a year. Not fair is it?

- You get a place for under a grand a year!?
Wow. That's practically free.

What is your council tax banding in such a place? Would I be right in saying £1000, at most?
If so you are moaning that the sky is falling down on the back of housing costs of approx just under - or is it well under, hmmm? - £2k a year!?

(.....and UK servicemen's pay is pretty good compared to many.)

It might not be all it could be but such is life, welcome to the world the rest of us have to live in.

......and all was sweetness and light under the tories I suppose?

NHS - Fact 1: Labour keeps saying it plows billions of pounds into the NHS. Really? Recently I was diagnosed with a large 'lump' on my right testicle. An appointment with a specialist was urgently requested. The waiting list I went on, was the waiting list for the 'official' waiting list. In the meantime, my 'lump' was getting bigger. After a year, I saw the specialist who said I needed an operation. Guess what? I went on another waiting list! In the meantime, my lump was getting bigger. Eventually, I had the operation and no, it was not cancer. But can you imagine what I was going through?

From initial doctor's appointment to recovery ward - 19 months. Not bad for a government who promised operations within 6 months!

- That sounds terrible.
But personal anecdotes are hardly representitive.
Every professional group looking at the NHS at the moment is verfiying that things are improving noteably.

NHS - Fact 2: In my spare time, I work as an ambulance Technician. As such, I have seen at first hand the results of Labour's billions. I don't know where they are going, but they certainly are not going to the 'frontline'!

- Then your hospital must be a real strange one.

My own experience of going to the 4 hospital within 20miles of where I live in the last 4yrs is one where every one of them has brand new units and improving standards.

It's not perfect (no-one is claiming that) but the improvement is undeniable.

Defence - Fact 1: Our troops in Afghanistan and Iraq are ill equipped. There are massive shortages of ammunition, spare parts, body armour and boots (all essential items, you'll agree!)

- Logistics are fraught with periodic difficulties, it's so common it's part of forces legend.
However, I doubt things are quite the disaster some make out, if they were our losses would be staggering rather than at the tragic, but thankfully low, level they have been at.

Defence - Fact 2: Bowman radios. Labour gave the go ahead for this radio. It arrived late, was overpriced, it does not work and the batteries have a tendancy to 'burst into flames' when hot.

- ....and what? Sadly these things someimes happen. Sad but true.

Do you imagine Labour are the only party to have been in power and had a procurement turn out to be ill advised and nothing short of a let down from the manufacturers?

Defence - Fact 3: Hoon the Loon has decided to 'shoot now - pay later' on Barclaycard. His decision not to stockpile vital items of equipment buy to purchase on a 'as and when' basis has surely come home to roost.

- J.I.T. (just in time), as opposed to the expensive business of maintaining aging stocks, is something new to defence but has been in use in business for decades; so the gov did something they were advised to do and it turned out in these circumstances it doesn't sit too well with the need.
You live and learn.

(.....and again it can hardly be as bad as the Mail etc make out because losses etc would be so much worse if that was all quite as bad as they make out)

Defence - Fact 4: The 'new' aircraft carriers supposed to be operational by 2012, have no aircraft because Labour has opted for the JSF which is too heavy to operate from carriers!

- This is pure Daily Mail myth.......mainly to knock and distract from the point that Labour (for so long 'painted' by people like the Mail and the UK right-wing as anti-defence) are funding 2 huge brand new highly capable carriers.

The V/STOL JSF version has a weight problem which the manufacturers say they are tackling (last I saw was they claimed it had been dealt with).

Manafucturing - Fact 1: Since Labour came to power, more than 1M manufacturing jobs have been lost - the latest being Rover.

- .....and what?
It is a sad truth that manufacturing in the western economies is declining.
It is also true that there are engineering skills shortages in the west midlands and many of those Rover guys will have little trouble with finding new work.

(and to try and compare Labour's record of record UK employment to the tories one of record post war unemployment is a tad rich!)

Manufacturing - Fact 2: Many small businesses have gone to the 'wall' because of Labour's small business taxes and the mountain of paperwork that goes with it.

- Yeah and many haven't and are thriving.

UK employment is at record levels and unemployment is at low levels not seen since the late 1960's.

The fact is small businesses have never had so much assistance and help as now......but they operate in a society and have responsibilities to that society so there are some things they have to do, well boo hoo hoo.

They can't just do nothing regarding their obligations and sit whining nonsense about so-called 'red tape mountains'.

Oh I just can't be bothered to go on and on.

Labour is all about spin, and most politicians get more out of us then we get from them.

- I'll take Labour's record - imperfect as it is, warts and all - over the only plausible alternative (the tories) any day of the week.

....and if you do find a perfect party to elect do let us all know, eh?


[edit on 18-4-2005 by sminkeypinkey]

Why do people hate labour? Good question.

I happen to work at the labour party head office in newcastle. My job is to phone up members who havent paid up and get money from them. Of course we dont put it like that on the phones, but thats the basic idea.

Half the time, when a member hasn't paid his/her dues, its because they've given up with the party altogether and have joined the growing numbers of us who are entirely disollusioned with the whole political process. So, as you can imagine, I get all the earfuls of sh*t that come from such disgruntled citizens.

Sminkeypinkey, you make some valid points, and they are many of the points I use to convince unhappy members to give me their credit card numbers. But at the end of the day, what youre spouting out is pre-manifested bulls**t that I have to listen to all day from my diehard-labour boss. Quite frankly, most of it is hollow political spin and finger-pointing at the evil tories.

Labour's real success lies with Gordon Browns economic mastery, and everybody, even skeptics like myself, can't argue that he hasn't done at least a half-decent job in the last 7 years.

Other successes include the introduction of a national minimum wage (however pathetically small), Low unemployment and investment in public services like health and education.

To answer the original question, why do people hate Labour, well there are three main answers. The most frequent complaint, as you've probably guessed, is the war in Iraq. Not even I with all my knowlege of party rhetoric can answer this one. It would be going against my own moral and ethical views, as well as basic logic, to even begin to formulate an argument in favour of the Labour government's conduct, up to and during this yet-unjustified war. What I have to do when I encounter this particular complaint is use the same old, "Well foreign policy isnt everything, just look at the economy", tactic.

Yeah so what if we are fighting the war for the wrong reasons, it's happened and it's not going to stop, why don't we now concentrate on keeping Britain's currently strong (thanks to Mr. Gordon Brown) economy. Gordon Brown has done wonders for Britain's economy and I applaud him on his success.

The second reason, which is closely tied in with the first, is integrity of leadership, with the culprit always being wor tony. This guy's just like marmite. Either people i speak to love the guy and everything he's done, and hate people who dont. Or, as is usually the case, they hate him and will go on for age's about how he lied to us all about Iraq and doesn't belong in the Labour Party any more than Maggie Thatcher. I tend to agree with the latter.

The third main reason is an ideological one. Members of the Labour Party tend to fall into one of two main groups. The largest group being pensioners, many of them too past it to see what's actually going on in the world and have been in the party since their 20's and dont know any different. (Because of their guillability, these are the people we are told to target for financial donations. As a result I always acheive the lowest donation-rate in the office).
The second biggest group, and these are usually the ones who cancel their membership, are the members who continually refer to themselves as "Old Labour". They see past tony blair and his charming ways, and see how he has managed to ideologically rape the once-great Labour Party. The party is no longer the great socialist warrior, speaking out for the 'little guy' in our capitalist, money/power orientated world. This was the party that started the NHS, and however underfunded and ill managed, it is not to be taken for granted. But no longer can the party hold it's head high. It's more of a centre-right party these days, causing the tories to become more and more right wing, authoritarian.

That is my main dislike of the party. Its shallowness. This spineless organisation is held upright by nothing but spin, propaganda and PR.

On a final note, Labours capaign slogan is "Britain Forward, Not Back".
Yes we may be going forward (in some ways) with Labour, but in very small, inefficient steps.

Could go on but i'm falling asleep... Just came on for a bit of a rant after finishing my coursework at 3 in the morning, lol...

*YAWN*

BTW if anyone here works in journalism, you might like to know what we do with comments and complaints we receive over the phone from members.... thats right! we shred them!

Originally posted by Abstrakt
Sminkeypinkey, you make some valid points, and they are many of the points I use to convince unhappy members to give me their credit card numbers.

- Well if you want to call low unemployment and a stable economy without the repossessions etc etc just a few "valid points" feel free; for me those points alone are huge.

But at the end of the day, what youre spouting out is pre-manifested bulls**t that I have to listen to all day from my diehard-labour boss. Quite frankly, most of it is hollow political spin and finger-pointing at the evil tories.

- Really.

Of course the point that this supposedly "finger pointing at the evil tories" is totally based upon the tories' own record in office, their own plans and statements seems to be lost, hmmmm?
Are you suggesting the parties should not contrast their own plans with those of the other parties.....or just Labour?

Excuse me if I remain a tad sceptical about your 'I'm a disolutioned Labour guy' routine.
Any Labour supporter over the age of 30 knows only too well the tory record (and many - most? - from either suffering it first hand or their family and friends suffering it).
We see many of the same tories spouting almost the exact same 'remedy'.

The upshot of not having a Labour gov in the UK is to have a tory one.
Anyone who understands the UK's electoral system (as any parties' worker surely must) knows the only game in town is either a Labour gov or a tory gov.

I'm no great fan of the Iraqi war (although I am glad to see the back of Saddam) but if you think I'd have a tory gov back (a crowd who support the war but hypocritically wriggle about it) on the basis of that you must be joking.

As for Tony Blair? He's going after this term, there'll be someone new to become disillusioned with and sneer at soon enough.

The Labour parties' so-called 'shallowness' is nothing less than a disciplined and profession approach to politics (and tories hate it especially cos even though they brough it in Labour are so much better at it than they ever were).

I'd suggest you leave the Labour party Abstrakt (if you are actually a member or party worker); it must be hell doing a job day in day out you so obviously have no respect for and dislike so much.

(.......and BTW, "Just came in for a rant"?
What, found the site, registered - 26/04/05 - and posted on a whim?
Excuse me if I suspect a little obvious sock-puppetry and trolling.)


[edit on 27-4-2005 by sminkeypinkey]

www.toryscum.com... -

Originally posted by phixion
www.toryscum.com... -

LMFAO!!
now thats funny