Bakhmut about to fall.

originally posted by: face23785

originally posted by: paraphi

originally posted by: face23785
I hope not. But we've been lied to multiple times about what Ukraine "will never get."

Like?

No one has lied about the political, humanitarian and military support for Ukraine. Do you have some amazing revelation?

Seriously?

They weren't getting HIMARS. They got HIMARS.

They weren't getting Patriots. They got Patriots.

They weren't getting MBTs. That's in progress now.

They weren't getting F-16s. There are now Ukrainian pilots training on the F-16.

Where have you been getting your information from about this war? They haven't been keeping you very well informed. Don't get mad at me, get mad at them.

That's what Putin is hoping for, and if the kill ratio is 1:1 that's certainly true, but what if the kill ratio is 5:1?

According to the leaked documents, the loss ratio is about 4:1, but in Russia's favor: the US estimates listed around 70,000 Ukrainian casualties versus 17,500 Russian casualties.

Sorry fanbois, but it looks like those figures of 100,000+ Russian casualties were just pulled out of Mark Milley's ass.

a reply to: AndyFromMichigan

You don't need an exact casualty number to know the Russians are in deep Sh^&&***t:

Russia’s New Conscription Law Brings the Digital Gulag Much, Much Closer

New legislation on drafting Russian nationals into military service rushed through the Russian parliament last week dramatically changes the relationship between the state and the people. With nothing to stop this approach from being expanded to other spheres to establish a state system of complete digital surveillance, coercion, and punishment, the Digital Gulag that has been widely discussed ever since the COVID-19 pandemic is now taking shape.

www.themoscowtimes.com...

The ratio of cold bodies to warm bodies is rising. What that number is no one knows. But the country wouldn't be on conscription alert if it had enough warm bodies to fight at the front. From what I've heard from friends and family is that everyone knows someone, friend, family or acquaintance, who got killed.

Ukraine isn't much better publishing their numbers. But a manpower deficit could be a very real situation for the Russians.

On top of that, the manpower conscripted now has virtually no training. And worse, they'll be the lame, lazy and the crazy who are really just canon fodder. Not a great future for the Russian army.

originally posted by: JinMI

originally posted by: face23785

originally posted by: paraphi

originally posted by: face23785
I hope not. But we've been lied to multiple times about what Ukraine "will never get."

Like?

No one has lied about the political, humanitarian and military support for Ukraine. Do you have some amazing revelation?

Seriously?

They weren't getting HIMARS. They got HIMARS.

They weren't getting Patriots. They got Patriots.

They weren't getting MBTs. That's in progress now.

They weren't getting F-16s. There are now Ukrainian pilots training on the F-16.

Where have you been getting your information from about this war? They haven't been keeping you very well informed. Don't get mad at me, get mad at them.

Lets throw some more parameters in there to make it a little less confirmation biased shall we...

They didnt lie about WW2
They didnt lie about the Korean War
They didnt lie about the 1st Gulf War
They didnt lie about the Bosnian War
They didnt lie about the Kosovo War
They didnt lie about the Al-Qaeda insurgency in Yemen
They didnt lie about the East Timorese Crisis
They didnt lie about the war in the Congo
They didnt lie about the 6 Day war in Rwanda in 2000

I could list a ton more wars from the last 30 years... but when you look at all the wars humans have had in the last 100 years... and tally them all up against the ones those involved in did actually lie about in many areas...

It kinda throws you're little cute meme off doesn't it.

So yeah, ruZZias invasion is different, anyone who thinks its all smoke and mirrors and lies needs some glasses and a few months away from the conspiracy table.

a reply to: BigfootNZ

I think you are the most easily triggered user on this site.

The US gov't has lied about every single event they've a hand in.

Ever. Single. One.


If you have such trust in the institutions, then why on Earth are you here?

I'd wager it's to get gooder and spellink.

ruZZias invasion is different

Back to topic.

People have been predicting the capture of the ruins of Bakhmut for months, yet the Russians remain frustrated and have not completed the capture of the city that they have made into a pile of rubble.

Are people still predicting the city will finally be captured?

a reply to: paraphi
You sort of answered your own question. When all that's left is the rubble pile that used to be the city, there's not much point in defending the rubble pile any longer. So the Russians have mostly but not completely captured the rubble pile that used to be the city of Bakhmut.

The last straw is the Russians pretended there are no civilians left in Bakhmut (Ukrainians tried to evacuate remaining civilians but it was voluntary so they weren't forced to leave), and they recently started bombing the last residential areas (claiming they aren't killing civilians in the Russian state run media, but they actually are killing those civilians who refused to evacuate). The bombs they are dropping from planes are huge, like 230 kg and are wreaking huge destruction, here's a recent capture posted by Denys Davydov in the video he posted to youtube recently, showing one of the last Ukrainian held residential areas being destroyed and smoldering:


From this video:

originally posted by: Arbitrageur
The last straw is the Russians pretended there are no civilians left in Bakhmut

More war crimes courtesy of Russia. Russian military doctrine is brutality. Such backwardness.

Regardless, of the fact the city is now a pile of rubble, can Russia claim to have captured it yet, and if they do, what do they control. Rubble and bodies.

May 1st, still fighting for the city.

This thread didn't age well.

It'll fall eventually but not yet. Tomorrow, next week, next month, never have total control of the city? It seems any of those are possible.

originally posted by: BigfootNZ

They didnt lie about WW2
They didnt lie about the Korean War
They didnt lie about the 1st Gulf War
They didnt lie about the Bosnian War
They didnt lie about the Kosovo War
They didnt lie about the Al-Qaeda insurgency in Yemen
They didnt lie about the East Timorese Crisis
They didnt lie about the war in the Congo
They didnt lie about the 6 Day war in Rwanda in 2000

Ring the bell, school is in session...

It's now known that the US government knew the Japanese were planning to attack Pearl Harbor, but they let it happen because they needed a reason to drag the US into World War II. This explains why the US aircraft carriers were conveniently out at sea when this happened, while the battleships (which even by the 1940's were largely obsolete) were left in port as a token sacrifice. Also, the US government spent the whole war pretending that the Holocaust was just propaganda. Allied troops didn't know a thing about the concentration camps until they liberated them.

I can't speak about the Korean War, but the First Gulf War was most certainly predicated on a lie. Saddam Hussein actually asked the western leaders how they would react if Iraq invaded Kuwait, and to a man/woman they all said they wouldn't care. For all practical purposes, George Bush Sr and his administration gave tacit approval to Hussain for the invasion. But it turned out they were setting him up, and they were totally planning to intervene on behalf of the Kuwaiti royal family.

Most of the rest of those, the US had little to no involvement, but it's known that the Bosnians had their own share of ethnic cleansing actions that were committed against Serbs and Croatians, which European leaders were all too willing to ignore because it didn't fit the narrative they were selling.

Sounds like things aren't going well for the Wagner Group in Bakhmut. If Putin loses the support of his Nazi mercenaries then you can pretty much consider this "special operation" over.

Yevgeny Prigozhin: Wagner Group boss says he will pull fighters out of Bakhmut

a reply to: Xcalibur254

saw a blurb with ukraine claiming to have hit the wagner ammo dumps in the city as well.
--------------

I dont doubt the city will fall eventually but at what cost to the russian military, its not even the troops killed, its the material lost that is crippling the russian advances.

It always comes down to logistics and will to fight, so far we have seen russia does not understand logistics at all and the ukrainian people are willing to stand in their own destroyed homes and keep fighting. (I say this because you dont often get soldiers willing to be surrounded and keep fighting as we have seen in not one but now two cities)

originally posted by: Xcalibur254
Yevgeny Prigozhin: Wagner Group boss

If the poor little mite is not careful, he'll end up floating face-down in a Kremlin pond, or leaping from a great height, like other oligarchs who have been critical of Putin and his ilk.

If Wagner is allowed to leave the front line, I think the prolonged Bakhmut offensives may be abandoned. Russia has achieved nothing in this particular part of the front, except a pile of bodies and rubble. What a waste of life.

The main question for me (armchair general, that I am), is whether the ammunition shortages are across all troops, not just some policy decision to limit ammunition to the Wagner mercenaries. If there are operational shortages, then this may not bode well for Russian troops facing a reinvigorated, motivated and rearmed Ukraine.

originally posted by: paraphi

originally posted by: Xcalibur254
Yevgeny Prigozhin: Wagner Group boss

If the poor little mite is not careful, he'll end up floating face-down in a Kremlin pond, or leaping from a great height, like other oligarchs who have been critical of Putin and his ilk.

I suspect the relationship between Prigozhin and Putin is a bit precarious by this time. Putin might have already ordered him killed for saying the things he says, if not for him being the leader of Wagner, and I think Putin knows the Wagner has been fighting better than the regular Russian military, so that's why he's spared.

If Wagner is allowed to leave the front line, I think the prolonged Bakhmut offensives may be abandoned. Russia has achieved nothing in this particular part of the front, except a pile of bodies and rubble. What a waste of life.

The main question for me (armchair general, that I am), is whether the ammunition shortages are across all troops, not just some policy decision to limit ammunition to the Wagner mercenaries. If there are operational shortages, then this may not bode well for Russian troops facing a reinvigorated, motivated and rearmed Ukraine.

Their ammo shortages are across all troops but Prigozhin keeps criticizing Shoigu, so do you think that makes Shoigu motivated to help him with more supplies?

Wagner's goal was to take Bakhmut by May 9th for the victory day celebration, but it isn't looking like Russia will have full control of Bakhmut by then.

Fight For Bakhmut Picks Up Ahead of May 9 Celebration In Russia

Ukrainian Deputy Defense Minister Hanna Malyar said Russian troops -- spearheaded by mercenaries from the private Wagner group -- are making every effort to capture Bakhmut by May 9, the date when Moscow celebrates its World War II Victory Day.

"To achieve this, they are bringing in Wagner forces from other battlefields who are being replaced with paratrooper assault units that are currently fighting in the Bakhmut direction," Malyar said on Telegram.

"The Russians are inclined toward symbolism, and their key historic myth is May 9. They really have established the objective of taking control of Bakhmut by this date," Malyar said separately on Ukrainian television.

Malyar's statement contradicted an apparent threat by Wagner Group chief Yevgeny Prigozhin, who earlier on May 5 claimed he would withdraw his fighters from Bakhmut in what looked like an escalation of his ongoing feud with the Russian Defense Ministry over supplies and support.

In a video posted by his press service on May 5, Prigozhin said he would pull out Wagner forces from Bakhmut by May 10 -- the day after the Kremlin’s planned World War II Victory Day commemorations.

"We were supposed to take Bakhmut by May 9, but pseudo-military bureaucrats, who knew about it, literally cut us off from artillery ammunition," Prigozhin said in the video, as he addressed the camera with a group of apparent Wagner soldiers in the background.

originally posted by: AndyFromMichigan
Saddam Hussein actually asked the western leaders how they would react if Iraq invaded Kuwait, and to a man/woman they all said they wouldn't care. For all practical purposes, George Bush Sr and his administration gave tacit approval to Hussain for the invasion. But it turned out they were setting him up, and they were totally planning to intervene on behalf of the Kuwaiti royal family.

Source for that?

originally posted by: Irishhaf
I dont doubt the city will fall eventually but at what cost to the russian military, its not even the troops killed, its the material lost that is crippling the russian advances.

Zelensky said there's no city left, it's destroyed, but Russia still didn't manage to take all of it by today as Putin had ordered.

Russian President Vladimir Putin led a pared-down Victory Day parade in Moscow on Tuesday

Zelensky said on Tuesday that Russia had failed to capture Bakhmut before the May 9 deadline of the Victory Day parade.

“They were not able to capture Bakhmut, this was the last important military operation that they wanted to complete by the nineth of May,” Zelensky said in a joint press conference with European President Ursula von der Leyen.

“Unfortunately, the city does not exist anymore everything is fully destroyed.”

Not about to fall, yet:

www.aljazeera.com...

"The head of the Wagner Group has criticised the Russian military for fleeing positions in Bakhmut and exposing his troops fighting for control of the city.

In a video statement, Prigozhin mocked a report by the Russian Ministry of Defence that said its forces had left their positions to move to more favourable ones. He said they instead had effectively fled and “our flanks are crumbling”.

“You must immediately stop lying,” Prigozhin said, addressing the Russian military leaders."

a reply to: Oldcarpy2

He also called Putin 'bunker grandpa' which is what Navalny calls him. The infighting is priceless.

a reply to: anonentity

Well, it's not fallen yet and Russian troops are fleeing and their flanks are crumbling, according to no less a source than their Head Naz....I mean...the head of the Wagner Group.

This thread is not ageing well.

Any comment?

I apologize if any offense was taken by Pro Russia fanati.... I mean, supporters...if I might have suggested in reporting the Head of Wagner Group's comments about Russian troops "fleeing" or their flanks "crumbling" that Mr Putin's Special Military Operation might be in some way faltering or be anything less than glorious Russian victory over Ukrainian Nazis in manner of WW2.

I now fully realize that in fact, as totally credible Russian official statements have now confirmed, that this is in fact nothing more than a "tactical re-grouping" to better defensive...err..offensive positions.

Is totally not fleeing or running away.

Just to be clear.

a reply to: Oldcarpy2

Thats not what the reality seems to be. Blackrock owns Russia as well time to wake up.