Live Coverage!!US military shoots down Chinese spy balloon over Atlantic Ocean

So, they feign ignorance, let it resume its real time spy collecting and THEN shoot it down once it reached the ocean?

These people are incompetent.

I'll give credit where due, Biden did say shoot it down, but Miley and Co were like, Naw.

originally posted by: Arnie123
So, they feign ignorance, let it resume its real time spy collecting and THEN shoot it down once it reached the ocean?

These people are incompetent.

I'll give credit where due, Biden did say shoot it down, but Miley and Co were like, Naw.

Generaless Miley Mouth had to back-channel his chicom handlers and ask for permission.

a reply to: Violater1
Totes

originally posted by: wavelength

originally posted by: Jonjonj
a reply to: wavelength

Yeah I guess but...

The whole "tracking a slowly moving object in the sky" thing...really though? Who the actual # could say this is a real thing without being a complete twat? right?

Well, that's just it, tracking. The funny thing is, one of the advantages the media is telling you regarding "balloon use" over sat use is that it doesn't follow the predictable orbits of satellites, which is a stupid excuse. You and I could track that balloon the whole way with our eyeballs and a civilian laptop. How hard was that?

A lot harder than you think.

Try it. I have, on many high altitude balloon launches.


At high altitude, I'm talking stratospheric altitudes, a balloon with a diameter about the same as a a city bus appears, in broad daylight, and to the unaided eye, appears as a tiny white dot, somewhat the size of a pinhead held at arm's length.

Perhaps a bit smaller.

If you don't know what you're looking for, and where to look for it, you probably won't find it.

And, as already discussed elsewhere, balloons have no IR signature, and only the sensor package mounted to the balloon might have some radar return signature.

So nothing to "track" on a laptop. Unless you are in direct communication with the vehicle, all you'll be able to do is guess where the balloon could be based on wind speed, direction, and altitude.


Now, at lower altitude it gets easier, not easy, but easier. You can at least get a visual target to shoot at.

China is PO'd and is promising some payback.


I say give them the Roswell balloon to shoot down, and we get a baby Panda cub. And call it even.

U.S. Downs Chinese Balloon, Drawing A Threat From China

China said the U.S. shooting down a suspected spy balloon was a "serious violation of international practice," and threatened repercussions.

...The U.S. insisting on the use of force is an obvious overreaction and a serious violation of international practice. China will resolutely uphold the relevant company’s legitimate rights and interests, at the same time, reserving the right to take further actions in response,” according to a statement from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs Sunday morning.

link

a reply to: Mantiss2021

You're definitely right. I'm referring to the fact that its path could be inferred by mass sightings. Tracking may have been the wrong word, inferring would be a better choice... that said, yes, at that altitude, it's not exactly going to look like the Goodyear hovering over a football game. In this case, though, ground based observers were able to see it, there were quite a few who saw it and reported it, photographed it, pilots saw it, etc. It's not like the thing is completely invisible; precise tracking is not so easy, but it's still traceable.
"I did see it" - NYT (paywall warning but you can read the headline)

A Chinese balloon has been raising a lot of questions for people who live under its path. “I did see it, and it should have been shot,” said a barbecue chef in Billings, Mont.

USA today:
Video shows moment US shot down suspected Chinese spy balloon after Americans reported sightings Saturday

Americans on Saturday reporting seeing the large Chinese balloon suspected of conducting surveillance as it drifted over the Southern U.S. Hours later, it was shot out of the sky over the Atlantic Ocean. TV footage showed the moment the balloon appeared to be hit and began its descent toward the water. The balloon was downed after it passed into U.S. territorial waters, Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin said in a statement. It carried a large payload of spy gear according to U.S. officials, and had soared over several strategic sites, including nuclear missile silos as it crossed a huge swath of the U.S. Earlier in the day, people had used cell phones and professional cameras to document the balloon's trajectory. The balloon was spotted over Montana earlier this week.

originally posted by: Violater1

You remind me so much of the famous ATS Intelgirl or something like that. I'm glad you're here.

Haha thanks, that's really nice of you, I'm glad I joined ATS. I'm not quite at that caliber (probably never will be), but it's fun to discuss geeky stuff on here!

originally posted by: wavelength
a reply to: putnam6
From what I know about it (not much more than most of us on here I'm sure), if my assertions are correct, this was (most likely) a psyop intended to sway the opinions and attention of the US and friends (distractionary). The act may partially have intended to make the people of the US question their government and military, for one, and for China to show that it is not afraid to make a statement. It's like a gorilla banging on its chest, or a taunt, if you want to look at it that way.
Most people get psyops and STOs (special technical operations) mixed up, especially in the CT world. (Not saying you do, rather that a lot of people do)
This is a combination of both. For those who do not know, a psyop is a propaganda-based operation, such as a dictator sending out beach balls with his face and name on it, news media related activities, pamphlets/leaflets, etc. A Special Technical Operation involved more physical operations that directly manipulate a given situation. As we see, there are elements of both going on with the Magic Balloon Show.

originally posted by: Jonjonj
There is no intelligence to be gathered from a propaganda made news story. Honestly it's hilarious that this is being taken seriously but if I say that then I am Pro Chinese! I mean lol!"!!

Well, there is, but it's tricky.
Look at it this way, the balloon is a tool. A magician (in this case, China) uses tools; props, cards, screens, boxes, hats, etc. The magic trick is comprised of the use of tricks along with the props (tools). The magic trick is not just the tools, it is the sleight of hand utilizing the tools. Uri Geller's spoons sure didn't bend themselves.
The intelligence does not all have to come from the tool itself, the intelligence comes from how the tool was used, even as propaganda. Everyone is always trying to stay one step ahead of each other.
They are looking at more than just the dumb balloon. They are looking at the act.

So China's big look at what I can do on the world stage, and one person's psyop is another person's STO.

FWIW virtually everything I learned about psyops was initially found here on ATS, well here and Russ Kick. Plenty of possible psyops presented here on ATS over the years, but I'll be damn if recall STO being used a lot if at all, isn't that strictly military?

Honestly used to roll my eyes when I'd hear it used on ATS, but reading about Operation Northwoods a long time ago makes denying it happens impossible. 

If any country is going to excel at psyops I would likely be the one government that has to control 1.4 billion human beings.

That said being a child of the 70s and the 80s cold war, I may have a different perspective and definition.

originally posted by: peaceinoutz
China is PO'd and is promising some payback.


I say give them the Roswell balloon to shoot down, and we get a baby Panda cub. And call it even.

U.S. Downs Chinese Balloon, Drawing A Threat From China

China said the U.S. shooting down a suspected spy balloon was a "serious violation of international practice," and threatened repercussions.

...The U.S. insisting on the use of force is an obvious overreaction and a serious violation of international practice. China will resolutely uphold the relevant company’s legitimate rights and interests, at the same time, reserving the right to take further actions in response,” according to a statement from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs Sunday morning.

link

China is like a burglar getting shot breaking into a house and suing

a reply to: putnam6

Yep, that's the gist of it.

STOs are military in this case, but the term can extend to other (even civilian) entities when necessary. They don't all have to be clandestine shenanigans, either, they are quite literally just that: technical operations. It is a broad term that covers a lot of ground, but in this case, it refers to a technical operation utilizing equipment (balloons and perhaps some other party favors) and strategy intended to evoke some type of desired response with some predetermined outcome in mind (a little more complicated than sending out leaflets with photos of, say, a dictator petting a kitten).

But yes, there are psychological operation elements to the balloon show as well. Psyops, by current definition, are basically information control/distribution operations designed to influence objective reasoning, behavior, emotions, etc of governments and people. Add the technical bit to it (such as the use of a balloon), and it ventures into the realm of technical operations.

So, when are we going to talk about the three balloons that entered US airspace during the last administration that we weren't told about and nothing was done to destroy them?

originally posted by: wavelength
a reply to: putnam6

Yep, that's the gist of it.

STOs are military in this case, but the term can extend to other (even civilian) entities when necessary. They don't all have to be clandestine shenanigans, either, they are quite literally just that: technical operations. It is a broad term that covers a lot of ground, but in this case, it refers to a technical operation utilizing equipment (balloons and perhaps some other party favors) and strategy intended to evoke some type of desired response with some predetermined outcome in mind (a little more complicated than sending out leaflets with photos of, say, a dictator petting a kitten).

But yes, there are psychological operation elements to the balloon show as well. Psyops, by current definition, are basically information control/distribution operations designed to influence objective reasoning, behavior, emotions, etc of governments and people. Add the technical bit to it (such as the use of a balloon), and it ventures into the realm of technical operations.

Damn, real-world quality and concise definitions. Sounds like you do more than dabble in this subject matter.

So is there any bite to China's bark? what should we watch for next in your estimation?

Just a cooling-off period? and terse rhetoric?

I can see them trying to play it as a victory but is it really?

Do we or do we not have the capability to track these types of balloons from beginning to end as the Pentagon claims?

a reply to: Xcalibur254

I'm going full tinfoil CT here, so forgive me if I sound unhinged for a bit.

I propose that at the "spy balloon" that was presented to the public until it was shown to have been shot down, was in fact, a misdirection.

Of sorts.

Yes, it fit the description of what the typical citizen would think of when told of a "spy balloon", but that is a rather vague term.

I think what has Washington and Beijing at such odds at the moment is actually something more akin to something like this:

www.scmp.com...

Outfitted with an ISR suite.


Consider how the "official" descriptions and declarations, when this story broke, could be applied to either craft.

And yet, although balloons similar to what was shot down, fly around the world every day, this particular balloon sets off an international incident.


But, a vehicle like what is described in the linked article, flying through the stratosphere, capable of lifting tons of who knows what....

That would certainly be cause for strategic concern.

a reply to: Xcalibur254

Bleep, bleep, bleep, expletive, bleep, bleep, expletive, bleep.

originally posted by: Xcalibur254
So, when are we going to talk about the three balloons that entered US airspace during the last administration that we weren't told about and nothing was done to destroy them?

Xcalibur those incursions were brief episodes over Guam and Hawaii if you have evidence that we have had weather balloon incursions in the lower 48. I did find this but these are US balloons

www.thedrive.com...

This is absurd...


It's a weather balloon!

I kinda doubt China would write "China" on their super secret spy balloon...

Maybe the reason why the military didn't wanted to shoot it down right away is to intercept the comms of the baloon before it falls down and get destroyed......

originally posted by: putnam6

Damn, real-world quality and concise definitions. Sounds like you do more than dabble in this subject matter.

So is there any bite to China's bark? what should we watch for next in your estimation?

Just a cooling-off period? and terse rhetoric?

I can see them trying to play it as a victory but is it really?

Do we or do we not have the capability to track these types of balloons from beginning to end as the Pentagon claims?

Alright, so first, let's define the 'victory'--did this operation produce the desired reactive outcome? I'm not a China expert by any means, but from what I gather, the desired outcome of the balloon aspect of the operation was to alter/manipulate perceptions/opinions of the US response to the balloon. It did evoke an emotional response, so in that sense, it did its part. You could also call it a power move.
Currently, China is still playing games. They were last heard 'barking' at the US for exaggerating the 'China threat narrative' and shooting down their "harmless weather balloon". Terse rhetoric ensues indeed! The games continue.
Balloon downing deepens fault lines in China-US relations: analysts

“The US has ceaselessly exaggerated and propagated the ‘China threat’ theory … It is an overreaction that does no good to China-US ties,” Zhu said.
“Both sides need to progressively lessen adversarial rhetoric and action, because it is unnecessary for China and the US to be [further] affected by the finger-pointing [in] this incident.”

In some ways, the US is "taking the bait" (desired emotional reaction): China experts predict Beijing’s next move after spy balloon shot down

Texas Republican Rep. Pete Sessions said he believes "it’s very clear that, because commonsense Americans were overwhelmingly disgusted with not only the administration's responses to questions, they were horrified that we have a president who would allow Chinese spyware to be on top of our country for days at a time and seemingly to do nothing." "So I applaud the American people, normal American citizens who expressed outrage," Sessions told Fox News Digital in an exclusive Saturday phone interview. "That is why this happened."

BUT, both sides are playing the game. The US is going to fight tooth and claw to take advantage of this situation. Deeper into the rabbit hole: decisions must be made with information control and distribution. Questions are asked along the lines of, "do we gain more by appearing to play into the game/take the bait, or do we gain more by playing the strong game?"

A side note: China is also a little irked about the latest deal the US and NL secured about a week ago restricting China's access to chip-making equipment, which, according to industry insiders, could supposedly set China's AI/tech industry back by up to 20 years. This may not be directly related to the Balloon Show, but it gives you a little picture of the mood right now. Netherlands and the US agree on export restriction of ASML chip machines

As far as tracking goes, I'll have you do your own research as to some of the technical and equipment based methods employed, but once you know the object is there (and where, in general, to look), it's not too difficult. Remember, in order to track something, you first have to know it's out there in the first place (detect it).

a reply to: JAY1980

A legitimate experiment would have had radar reflectors and warning lights. Where it was put civilian air traffic in danger. Why wait for us to find it before notifying anyone?

Did you really cite a CCP source? Insert laughing emoticon.

By the way, the thing they can't collect from satellites is..... signals. It was collecting signals. And who knows what else?

This was terrorism-lite. Designed to wrack the nerves of the American people like Sputnik did in the 50's. China better hope and pray it never comes to war, we would mop the floor with those trolls and look good doing it. Maybe our jets could tally their kills with an "OuchXi" stencil for each one they put in the ground.

originally posted by: NavyNut
Maybe the reason why the military didn't wanted to shoot it down right away is to intercept the comms of the baloon before it falls down and get destroyed......

Maybe,

But now China knows the balloons route for future experiments.

Weather balloon my butt too, the NOAA website is easily accessible for exact weather trends and current and future weather events including the positions of the upper level Jet Streams, also used to steer the balloon around.

This was a dry run, and Intel gathering mission. The US failed to stop it before the data was collected and returned.

Absolutely abomination of the US military decisions.