EU's senior official Stefano Sannino Russia now see the war as being against the West

a reply to: Peeple

We are a "party" to the war, because as usual, we stick our nose where it doesn't belong.

The fact we fomented a coup in Ukraine in 2014 cannot be overlooked.

I personally don't give a flying banana about the Ukraine. Hopefully the debt ceiling collapses, limiting our ability to export terrorism and death around the world.

a reply to: JBurns

The fact we fomented a coup in Ukraine in 2014 cannot be overlooked.

That's not 'a fact'. Ukraine being fed up being a puppet of Russian puppets in their country can still be organic and isn't automatically artificial.

It's also not to be underestimated that there really are countries and people who want US leadership in the world.*
Because as of now the alternatives with the Arabs, China, or Russia is even more unattractive.

originally posted by: Peeple
a reply to: putnam6

... I'm not a Poindexter with a Henry Kissinger t-shirt

also: sorry didn't want to send you off chasing a goose, it was just to illustrate that Western influence in Ukraine didn't start 2014

Anyhoo I wasn't using it as reason for going to war, but as explanation why we're (the whole West) party in the war since long before Russia attacked 2014 or 2022.

Throw in NATO AND Russia is under more of a threat than Ukraine

I wish that was true. Alas Ukraine doesn't stand a chance if we're being honest, simply because they're running out of people. And that's for sure going to be blamed on America.
Germany and France are already starting to waver.
I can easily see this situation being more dangerous for other reasons than 'just' nukes.


And since the reply to your post has your post highlighted and linked my response is mostly still to all of what you said if I quote I do so to highlight that it's a 'sidenote' if you will

No worries just trying to learn stuff.

I was referring to now with all the help Ukraine is getting, plus plenty of Russia's military flaws have been exposed. Ukraine is currently more of a threat to Russia, Russia has to play with its hands tied, with all that's been invested even if France and Germany quit, the west and especially America has its horns on is ready and willing.

Personally, I believe American intelligence has been the game changer for Ukraine well that and the Javelins if they send in the Abrams from the US and enough Leopards it could easily turn Ukraine from being on the defensive to going on the offensive.

Definitely, head-to-head Russia but the support they have received has kept them in the game. Rumors of conflict between Wagner troops and regular Russian troops, and Ukrainian casualties so far seem significantly less than those Russia, throw in some tanks. Ukraine will be on the offensive by March if not sooner



It's a big party and everybody is invited Joey is paying the bill with his American Express gold card

Don't start a war without it.

originally posted by: gortex
No , Russia didn't want Ukraine joining NATO and basing NATO troops and equipment on their border , it's an understandable concern. NATO should have assured Russia that Ukraine wouldn't be joining (they'd be vetoed anyway) but they would enjoy NATO benefits (what they're getting now) if attacked.

Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Norway already have a border against Russia. Soon Finland will as well.

The only reason Russia didnt want Ukraine in NATO is because then they couldnt do what they're doing now, be free to continue annexing Ukraine piece by piece. Putin probably planned this before he even took Crimea.

a reply to: 1947boomer

Russia has been expecting and preparing for nuclear confrontation with the US many years now.

See,
ATS

Prepare for World War 3' Russia tells people to get ready for NUCLEAR ATTACK from the US
VLADIMIR Putin's people are getting ready for total war as they expect a full on nuclear assault from the US.

Bookmark
NEWS
ByHenry HollowayChief Reporter
17:25, 3 OCT 2016UPDATED04:44, 20 JUL 2019

Putin's ministers announced on Friday they have built underground shelters for an atomic attack which could hold all the 12 million residents on Moscow.
Russia has been constructing new weapons, underground bunkers, and researching experimental military technology as the country readies itself for war.
Tensions boiled over at the weekend as Russia backed out of a nuclear deal which has stood since the Cold War.
Putin signed the decree canning the deal which blamed the "hostile actions of the US" and said there is need to "take swift action to defend Russian security".
Russia have the biggest stockpile of nuclear weapons in the world with 7,300 in their arsenal.
Putin's firepower was also warned to be able to overwhelm Europe in the advent of World War 3.
Daily Star Online revealed the Kremlin's potential nuclear targets across Europe.
It was also warned the UK was 'ill-equipped' to deal with the impending nuclear threat.



Russia has been expecting and planing for nuclear confrontation for years. What has the US done to protect us from nuclear confrontation? "Duck and Cover".

originally posted by: putnam6

originally posted by: butcherguy
a reply to: putnam6
Let’s just hope that the declaration of war doesn’t come as a flash out of the corner of someone’s eye, just before the window glass comes in a thousand shards through their head.
Nuclear powers playing games like this isn’t cool. It only takes one misunderstood reading of a radar display or some actual ‘oops I just caused an inadvertent launch’ to take us to a full-blown nuclear conflict.

Sounds like you and I grew up under the same nuclear threat paranoia, but it is really a likelihood or has TPTB and the MIC just conditioned the public to fear that possibility?

i err on the latter but do not to dismiss the reality of risks, in the 1920/30s we had 3 parallel ideas running globalism would prevent great wars that even ww1 wouldn't shake and that mutually assured destruction as the bomber would always get through and the next war will be chemical weapons, was not just real but would happen, everywhere would be gunerica but seeped in chemical weapons.

but both wars proved both globalism and wmds wouldn't prevent great wars but ww2 proved ever greater wmds could end them..

how strange an age restricted clip.. clip is from 1936, British Pathe, Paris air raid exercise


it was in their media from the later part of the mid 30s onwards everyone could be Guernica..

even though the nazis had enough chemical weapons even nerve weapons they never got used as everyone was to afraid to start that kind of war and I believe that'll hold true today with nukes..

a reply to: putnam6

Who declares war these days anyways?

I'll take the war with Russia seriously when the UK and the EU have zero imports from Russia.

We're not at war.

Economic war is actually competition where the rules of the game are rigged. Why would I care about liquid gas Putnam? I'm not a wannabe patriot who ran around screaming hoorah when they symbolically pulled Russian vodka off the shelves.

a reply to: Peeple

Well when a couple of facebook posts amount to "meddling," direct involvement in their internal affairs (including picking their puppet, er, President) is definitely a coup. We should let the Junta government lead by Mr. Comedy fend for itself.

History tells a different story and is immune to doublespeak and revisionist history.

www.youtube.com...



So they'd rather be a puppet state of the US, despite being nowhere near our sphere of interest/strategic influence? Here is what Nuland said when she thought nobody was listening.

a reply to: JBurns

I don't know what facebook posts you're talking about, but who supported Zelensky was Kolomojskyj and he's as Euro-Ukrainian as it gets. When it's an issue a guy like that backs a politician in his home country... that's just absurde sorry.
To run a campaign costs money. Everywhere.

And the US assisting a new gov that moves a wealthy in ressources and promising country like Ukraine away from the sphere of influence of another country is also not surprising or nefarious.

a reply to: putnam6

I made a similar thread on the similar discussion. A US commander had said that the see Russia as rival for the resources in South America.

Which they need for the technology.

a reply to: JBurns

US was indeed direct meddling in affairs during the Ukrainian protests in Kiev during 2013.

Poroshenko,Zelensky are as much of a puppet to their agenda.

As for the claims made by some that it was the Ukrainian people that voted for poroshenko,
Yulia Tymoshenko.


Lets ignore that Ukraine and US made it sure that no opposition came close in Ukraine so that Urkanians would actual have a real democratic voice/vote.

mweri

It's also not to be underestimated that there really are countries and people who want US leadership in the world.*

this is true American exceptionalism that everyone else is desperate to be told what to do and how to live their lives by Americans, an approach the ignores the vast bulk of Americanism is rejected outside of the USA as they did the soviet block in the 1990s.. no one considers or calls Biden or the democrats the leaders of the free world..

America is like Britain in the late Victorian period where both lost the art of integrating themselves alongside other cultures and adopting the better ideas to become this force that pushes one cultural model on all...

In that space the likes of china are as appealing to many today as the USA was post ww2 the Russia still wants to play by the age old Russian rules which is why no one trust them either thus making china an even better future ally than the others.

a reply to: nickyw

Scholz in Germany wanted American approval before sending tanks. Not 'desperate to be told' what to do but making sure the Big Guy has their back.

It's normal that you project your set of rules. But what's a difference on the example of Chinese investment is that they invest but after it's build the only ones using the investment and employed at the investment are Chinese, where in contrast American civilian or military bases abroad generate regional native wealth around them.

I think it's quite amazing what romantic view a lot of people must have on Russia and China to think for a second that just because the West generally tries not to look too racist, China or Russia would worry about any such constraints.
They don't.

a reply to: vNex92

Agreed!

And now the illegitimate government is prepared to fight to the very last Ukrainian. Its just a shame their citizens have chosen to follow a literal comedian and this joke of a government. With the way we abandoned Afghanistan and threw their people to the wolves, its amazing anyone believes a word this country says anymore.

This government has done too much wrong over the last century or so. Its days are plainly numbered. A system built entirely on BS is bound to eventually collapse in on itself. I'm just glad I've taken steps to ensure my loved ones don't have to suffer because of empty suits.

a reply to: Peeple

I don't know anything about FaceBook nor did I mention it! I linked a YouTube video showing the telephone call the FSB intercepted of Victoria Nuland and the US Ambassador to Ukraine picking Ukraine's "President" circa 2013/2014.



Caught red handed. Totally inexcusable, yet not surprising, given the past century of felonious US meddling in countries around the world.

a reply to: JBurns

Scroll up a little, because you did talk about facebook.

And I mean it's probably true US influence played a role in Klitschko not becoming president, because 'picked' was Arseniy Yatseniuk, but ultimately it turned out to be Poroshenko who won the election. So yes US officials were talking and having influence but they didn't get who they wanted.
And if you want me to take your moral judgement seriously:
Where's your outrage Russia forced Yanukovych to abandon the trade agreement and push hard against the protesters which had 100 people killed?
That's totally fine and not worth mentioning to you?

a reply to: Peeple

You are right, I was thinking in the wrong context but still you are right.

I was referring to the breathless allegations that a handful of posts on social media could swing a US election - while the vast "meddling" and influence campaigns MSM + foreign interests ran on the 2020 election amount to ... curiously, nothing?

As well as the belief that such posts can amount to "interference" "meddling" while Nuland/Pyatty attempt at selecting Ukraine's President in 2014 did not amount to a coup. That's a grotesque double-standard, a narrative told by highly biased individuals.

Where's your outrage Russia forced Yanukovych to abandon the trade agreement and push hard against the protesters which had 100 people killed?
That's totally fine and not worth mentioning to you?

My dislike of Putin and authoritarian tactics in general is well noted. Just in case there is any confusion, Yanukovych was trash and deserved to go. But that does not give the US any right to stick its unwanted nose into another nation's business.

My problem is with the US government, at the behest of the MIC and its shareholders, writing checks on behalf of the American people that *quite a few of us* have no intent to cash/honor.

We have streets lined with homeless drug addicts and they still manage to fleece us! We are running the dirtiest, most useless forms of energy (instead of nuclear) and yet they find a way to divert $600,000,000,000.00 per year to needless garbage.

What about Ukrainian intelligence running massive information campaigns against the US? Remember that time they tried to suck us into their war and kick off WW3? Over Ukraine!? Hah!